GoldenEagle Posted October 28, 2012 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 764 Topics Per Day: 0.18 Content Count: 7,626 Content Per Day: 1.81 Reputation: 1,559 Days Won: 44 Joined: 10/03/2012 Status: Offline Share Posted October 28, 2012 So the question then becomes, is this fiery fate inevitable for those who have never heard of Christ? People don't go to hell because they've never heard of Christ. People go to hell because they've violated their conscience and broken God's laws. We have at least two biblical perspectives: i) When Gentiles who do not possess the law carry out its precepts by the light of nature, then, although they have no law, they are their own law, for they display the effect of the law inscribed on their hearts. Their conscience is called as witness, and their own thoughts argue the case of either side, against them or even for them, on the day when God judges the secrets of human hearts through Jesus Christ. So my gospel declares. (Romans 2:14). ii) Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me." (John 14:6). Both would seem to hold different views, but then they Paul might have had a different view than the author of John. Perhaps not all New Testament writers shared the same convictions? Perhaps other NT authors say other things? In context: Romans 2:12-16 12 For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law; 13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers [l]of the Law will be justified. 14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, 16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus. There are not two ways. Jesus is the ONLY way. Verse 12 tells us those who have sinned without the law will perish without the law (Gentiles). Verse 12 also says those who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law (Jews). Verse 16 says God will judge all the secrets of men through Jesus Christ. So if we break just one point of the law we’re guilty of all. James 2:10 For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all. Christ came to fulfill the law not abolish it. Matthew 5:17 “Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill. To understand the passage in Romans and not to confuse what Paul is saying we need to look at Ephesians 2… Eph 2:4-10 4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them. Verse 4 – God is merciful and loves us. Verse 5 – We were dead in our sin and God makes us alive in Christ. Verse 6 – God raised us up from the dead to be seated in the heavenly places with Christ. Verse 7 – God will continue to show his mercy to us because of Jesus Christ. Verse 8 – Salvation is a gift of God through faith in Jesus Christ (Therefore quoting the passage in Rom. 2:14 by itself out of context is not an accurate interpretation of what Paul is teaching. One cannot save one's self through good works or the law.) Verse 9 – We cannot work our way to Heaven. Verse 10 – We who are saved are His workmanship created for good deed for the glory of God Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MorningGlory Posted October 28, 2012 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 1,022 Topics Per Day: 0.16 Content Count: 39,193 Content Per Day: 6.11 Reputation: 9,977 Days Won: 78 Joined: 10/01/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted October 28, 2012 We have at least two biblical perspectives: i) When Gentiles who do not possess the law carry out its precepts by the light of nature, then, although they have no law, they are their own law, for they display the effect of the law inscribed on their hearts. Their conscience is called as witness, and their own thoughts argue the case of either side, against them or even for them, on the day when God judges the secrets of human hearts through Jesus Christ. So my gospel declares. (Romans 2:14). ii) Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me." (John 14:6). Both would seem to hold different views, but then they Paul might have had a different view than the author of John. Perhaps not all New Testament writers shared the same convictions? Perhaps other NT authors say other things? Look up "Love Wins - An Orthodox View" on you tube. You might find it interesting to this concept. I would post it on here but I have been getting gripped at for things lately ! So I am trying to be good. Don't worry about getting 'griped at', Stephanos. I've been getting that for over six years now....goes with the territory. You just post as you believe and let the chips fall where they may. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tinky Posted October 28, 2012 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 200 Topics Per Day: 0.04 Content Count: 1,602 Content Per Day: 0.30 Reputation: 291 Days Won: 8 Joined: 10/24/2009 Status: Offline Birthday: 01/01/1986 Share Posted October 28, 2012 In the view of the Orthodox priest God never turns his back on the individual. The more the individual turns from God the more God loves. And in the end -- in death -- all are raised and there is no separation from God, for God's love burns even more for the one who was lost. I don't know if there is a Hell in the Protestant sense. The Orthodox priest expressed the view that when a person is sent to Sheol, God too dies and joins him there. If any of that were true, God would not be just. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MorningGlory Posted October 28, 2012 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 1,022 Topics Per Day: 0.16 Content Count: 39,193 Content Per Day: 6.11 Reputation: 9,977 Days Won: 78 Joined: 10/01/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted October 28, 2012 And thank you MorningGlory Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enoob57 Posted October 29, 2012 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 35 Topic Count: 100 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 41,157 Content Per Day: 7.98 Reputation: 21,444 Days Won: 76 Joined: 03/13/2010 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/27/1957 Share Posted October 29, 2012 Framed the proper way the very existence of Hell becomes an argument against justice. This is why I love the Orthodox view it creates a God who is all loving. No matter whether the person is a sinner or saint. It's quite appealing actually and seems like a better way to view God; I certainly didn't expect this from an Orthodox priest. Is this a typical position of Orthodoxy? It is quite a contrast to the Protestant fire and brimstone sermons. How awful this picture of the created beings setting in judgment of The Creator.... Love, Steven Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fez Posted October 29, 2012 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 683 Topics Per Day: 0.12 Content Count: 11,128 Content Per Day: 2.00 Reputation: 1,352 Days Won: 54 Joined: 02/03/2009 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/07/1952 Author Share Posted October 29, 2012 Framed the proper way the very existence of Hell becomes an argument against justice. This is why I love the Orthodox view it creates a God who is all loving. No matter whether the person is a sinner or saint. And God is not capable of sending someone to hell while still loving them? Of course He is! He is Love. (just not some peoples idea of what love is, or should be, to suit their desires). Sometimes we "forget", the awesome creator God we serve, and we "replace" Him with a God who fits into our little niche more comfortably. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoldenEagle Posted October 29, 2012 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 764 Topics Per Day: 0.18 Content Count: 7,626 Content Per Day: 1.81 Reputation: 1,559 Days Won: 44 Joined: 10/03/2012 Status: Offline Share Posted October 29, 2012 It's quite appealing actually and seems like a better way to view God; I certainly didn't expect this from an Orthodox priest. Is this a typical position of Orthodoxy? It is quite a contrast to the Protestant fire and brimstone sermons. From what I can tell so far this is typical Orthodox position. But I will know more once I start digging into their ideas and Fathers more. Be warned. A friend of mine started searching more about the Orthodox position and ended up rejecting Christ a few years later. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tinky Posted October 29, 2012 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 200 Topics Per Day: 0.04 Content Count: 1,602 Content Per Day: 0.30 Reputation: 291 Days Won: 8 Joined: 10/24/2009 Status: Offline Birthday: 01/01/1986 Share Posted October 29, 2012 Technical question: what keeps those skeletons in place without muscles? And how can they feel pain without a nervous system? That is not an accurate picture of the lost. The Bible teaches even the damned will receive a resurrected body fit for an eternity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoldenEagle Posted October 29, 2012 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 764 Topics Per Day: 0.18 Content Count: 7,626 Content Per Day: 1.81 Reputation: 1,559 Days Won: 44 Joined: 10/03/2012 Status: Offline Share Posted October 29, 2012 Technical question: what keeps those skeletons in place without muscles? And how can they feel pain without a nervous system? That is not an accurate picture of the lost. The Bible teaches even the damned will receive a resurrected body fit for an eternity. I think I would tend to agree. Where does the Bible say this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gdemoss Posted October 29, 2012 Group: Royal Member Followers: 8 Topic Count: 59 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 4,402 Content Per Day: 0.99 Reputation: 2,154 Days Won: 28 Joined: 02/10/2012 Status: Offline Birthday: 04/26/1971 Share Posted October 29, 2012 And what happens with my soul if I never read that creed, the Bible, or never came to know anything else that relates to them? Ciao - viole Well I have struggled with that question fairly recently. My answer is I do not know. But viole, the question does not apply to you personally does it? Of course not. I already know what happens with my soul Ciao - viole And what is that? Technical question: what keeps those skeletons in place without muscles? And how can they feel pain without a nervous system? Ciao - viole Oh viole! You don't know this one? I believe it has something to do with the math behind all of the pixels etc... Gary Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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