I. Legalism: Defined

[Sevenseas]

I would just like to focus on the issue not our percieved personal differences in the thread.

please let me know if and when that actually happens anywhere ....I will declare it a holiday!

[GoldenEagle]

I would just like to focus on the issue not our percieved personal differences in the thread.

please let me know if and when that actually happens anywhere ....I will declare it a holiday!

haha. Yup. I agree.

[He giveth more grace]

I didn't mean to offend I just don't want the thread closed. Please accept my apology. Forgive me?

Ok..... .....I can sometimes be...a bit... but I really did not think so this time

You're alright, sevenseas, you don't need to worry about a thang.

[GoldenEagle]

Trying to get back on track here... Speaking of legalism... This thread is a classic example of what it can lead to:

[GoldenEagle]

I agree, and will to every response to your threads. That is what I try to share with other Christians, who thoroughly and enthusiastically agree, until it comes to Islam and politics.

I will take it that you know Scripture. If anything that I say in my own words directly counters the Bible, I expect your correction. I will also take it that this is a discussion among equals and the continual verse-support is unnecessary, except where I may find there is a prevalent misunderstanding among many Christians. Look for the spirit of what I am saying; the lack of a verse does not reduce it to mere opinion and unbiblical. I am not a child in Bible class that needs to ground, as proof of my knowledge, all that I say in verses we both are very familiar with and love. I take this as an adult conversation between two long-time servants of God.

1. What is legalism?

First comment:

The first duty of a Christian Soldier in the battle between good and evil is surrender.

We are to freely open to the tree of life--the love, grace, and spirit of God in the moment--to guide and act, not eat the forbidden fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. This is the mistake that Lawkeepers make. Yes, it is just to act in this way but it is not the fullness of righteousness.

Second:

Nonresistance is at the core of Christ's message, and this nonresistance was no part of The Old Testament or Mosaic Law. This is new, part of what Christ meant when he said he "came to fulfill the law." The Mosaic Law is about justice; the law of Christ is about righteousness. We see this essential difference between the Two Covenants delineated in Matthew Chapter Five.

Third:

It is said that the Law will not disappear or be changed a jot--and as beautiful explained in Matthew Five and by Paul in the Epsitles, it has not: righteousness completes or fulfills the Law. What is righteousness? Love. Love is the righteous fulfillment of the Law. Love is the nature of God and thus the fullness of His Law. It is a Love of God and like unto it a love of neighbor and enemy. It is the willingness to lay down one's life for family, friend, enemy, and ungodly alike, as Christ did. No exceptions!

The Covenant of Grace is the completion, fullness, of the Law, Restorative Justice; the Covenant of Law was a tutelary introduction to righteousness, Retributive Justice.

Fourth:

“The likeness of Christ is greater than the law. And the work of spirit to renew us in that image is greater than the law can perform. Law-keeping cannot transform us into Christ's image.” Legalism is a dependency on Law to do on our own only that which Christ can do by spirit and grace.

Fifth:

Legalism depends not only on our own understanding of God's will but our own effort as well: there is to be no boast or merit for good works; the Father does the works.

Sixth:

What the law cannot do: keep us in the favor of God; improve our moral qualities or build character; keep flesh in submission; help us remain saved; through our obedience of it please God.

Seventh:

Legalism serves from a have to; new spirit instilled serves from a want to.

Eighth:

Returning to Bible class, legalism is specifically addressed in acts15; rm5:10, 6:14, 7:2; 2cor3:6-18; and all of Galatians.

2. How does one view it according to the Bible?

How else is there to view it?

3. Have you experienced legalism from others in your life? If so how or from who in general?

The worst thing to do is to develop a list of those things one considers worldly and strive to avoid them. We see many examples of this in the various sects of the church and some of the lengths they go to define ludicrous. The “worldliness” we seek to avoid through legalistic rules is not out there but is the remnants of the “old man” within ourselves. Money is not evil; the love of it is. "As a man thinketh..." Dying to self is allowing God to remove the carnal and mundane vestiges of the "old man," letting Him conquer the world for us.

4. How does one address in a Christ-like manner people who are wanting to impose their legalistic values on others?

The same as we approach all those we meet: honestly, from the heart of who we are at the moment, fully open to guidance by the Holy Spirit. Fellowship demands this honesty, or how else can we learn and grow together in faith?

Kindliness and gentleness are fruit of the spirit, not behavorial regulations; they bestowed by God in our sanctification. This does not mean that if we are not feeling "kind" or "gentle" we have license to be insulting or aggressive. It simply means that we openly admit our failing to be generous or understanding at this time and troubled by something that we see as damaging to their soul. There is never to be condemnation or ridicule or name-calling.

Perhaps I’m misunderstood. I will take people’s opinion with a grain of salt. I will take God’s Word in context at face value. It doesn’t matter what my opinion is... What matters is in Scripture. I would expect you or anyone else really to view my opinions in the same manner. I’m sure others would agree?

Perhaps I've become like a Barean wanting to search the Scriptures for the truth in what people say. (Acts 17:11)

Overall this was a very interesting and well thought out post. I'll respond more later.

God bless!

GE

[Farmgal]

I have been watching this thread and was a little confused about what others had to say about the law and legalism, granted we are to live by the Spirit and not the law, but to disregard the law as some are doing is to miss the point of what Jesus did for us regarding the law, which is not legalism. The law is to be fully met in us, not disregarding, but carried out in such a way with Christ in us, so we might follow fully the law in us.

Romans 8:4 In order that the righteous requirements of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the sinful nature but according to the Spirit.

The mistake some people make is seeing "works" as a form of legalism, yet in James we read, "Faith without works is dead", he even goes on to say, "You foolish man, do you really need proof that faith without deeds is worthless?" If we don't have works, then we don't have faith, if we don't have faith, we don't have works.

Legalism becomes a problem when a person has been convicted of a sin through the Spirit, and another hasn't. A sin for one person is not necessarily a sin for another, for instance, drinking can be a sin for one and not for another. I personally have been convicted to not have any alcohol, but then I see many younger people drinking, they might see me as legalistic, but the problem is, if I drink then I disobey God.

[GoldenEagle]

The length of a woman's hair, skirts or pants, makeup, etc are real issues but distractions from what Jesus says are the legalisms that prevent His disciples from having a mature Biblical relationship with Him. The Bible makes a sharp distinction between a child of God by the new birth, and a mature son/daughter. These legalisms prevent the child from maturing.

Thanks for your thoughts lesjude. Sorry the thread got a little off track… Legalism to me seems to focus more on fear than grace. I agree the length of a woman’s hair, skirts, pants, makeup are distractions from having further deeper fellowship with God.

God is truly more concerned about our attitude (loving or selfish? Mercy not sacrifice?) towards others. Not that God isn’t interested in modesty, etc. Would you agree?

[GoldenEagle]

I have been watching this thread and was a little confused about what others had to say about the law and legalism, granted we are to live by the Spirit and not the law, but to disregard the law as some are doing is to miss the point of what Jesus did for us regarding the law, which is not legalism. The law is to be fully met in us, not disregarding, but carried out in such a way with Christ in us, so we might follow fully the law in us.

Romans 8:4 In order that the righteous requirements of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the sinful nature but according to the Spirit.

The mistake some people make is seeing "works" as a form of legalism, yet in James we read, "Faith without works is dead", he even goes on to say, "You foolish man, do you really need proof that faith without deeds is worthless?" If we don't have works, then we don't have faith, if we don't have faith, we don't have works.

Legalism becomes a problem when a person has been convicted of a sin through the Spirit, and another hasn't. A sin for one person is not necessarily a sin for another, for instance, drinking can be a sin for one and not for another. I personally have been convicted to not have any alcohol, but then I see many younger people drinking, they might see me as legalistic, but the problem is, if I drink then I disobey God.

Well sin is sin as far as the law. But in areas that are not specific (the Bible says don’t become drunk not don’t drink) sometimes people get carried away. I see what you’re saying though. I’m the kind of person that can be somewhat obsessive (lol yes I admit). So I know for me drinking is not a good idea.

In the example of alcohol it seems it results in the Bible more often than not in trouble. Here’s a few examples from the OT and NT.

---------------------------------

Genesis 9:20-26 - Noah became drunk; the result was immorality and family trouble.

Genesis 19:30-38 - Lot was so drunk he did not know what he was doing; this led to immorality

Leviticus 10:9-11 - God commanded priests not to drink so that they could tell the difference between the holy and the unholy.

1 Samuel 1:14-15 - Accused, Hannah said she drank no wine.

1 Samuel 25:32-38 - Nabal died after a drunken spree.

2 Samuel 11:13 - By getting Uriah drunk, David hoped to cover his sin.

2 Samuel 13:28-29 - Amnon was drunk when he was killed.

1 Kings 20:12-21 - Ben-Hadad and 32 other kings were drinking when they were attacked and defeated by the Israelites.

Proverbs 4:17 - Alcoholic drink is called the wine of violence.

Proverbs 20:1 - Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging.

Proverbs 23:19-20 - A wise person will not be among the drinkers of alcoholic beverages.

Proverbs 23:21 - Drunkenness causes poverty.

Proverbs 23:35 - Alcohol makes the drinker insensitive to pain so he does not perceive it as a warning. Alcohol is habit forming.

Isaiah 19:14 - Drunken men stagger in their vomit.

Isaiah 24:9 - Drinkers cannot escape the consequences when God judges.

Romans 13:13 - Do not walk in drunkenness or immorality.

1 Corinthians 6:10 - Drunkards will not inherit the kingdom of God

Ephesians 5:18 - In contrast to being drunk with wine, the believer is to be filled with the Spirit.

1 Peter 4:3-4 - The past life of drunkenness and carousing has no place in the Christian’s life.

For more see: http://www.scionofzion.com/drinking.htm

---------------------------------

Alcohol is clearly not very beneficial and leads to poor choices. Of course not everyone gets drunk every time they drink. The issue becomes Farmgal if or when because I have an issue with something I impose it on everyone else. This is legalism. Is this what you're talking about? Would you agree?

[Farmgal]

Farmgal, "The mistake some people make is seeing "works" as a form of legalism, yet in James we read, "Faith without works is dead", he even goes on to say, "You foolish man, do you really need proof that faith without deeds is worthless?" If we don't have works, then we don't have faith, if we don't have faith, we don't have works."

I can venture a guess where this attitude comes from. "Works" done as duty or as a means of securing salvation. Let's say a Christian tithes regularly: is this a good work, pleasing to God? Maybe. Where the person's heart is, is what ultimately matters.

This is the nature of Good Works:

Working cheerfully and earnestly, with great zeal and patience for the good of others, having no weariness in our deeds. This is what Scripture describes as the character of good works. (Rom2:7, Tit2:14, Gal6:19, 1Cor15:58) But this is only made possible through Spirit and by grace. Any sense of duty or obligation, of being burdened, appears to be questionable "works" at best, or legalism.

It's not an attitude, it's simply what the Bible states in James, it is where it came from, not of me, but from God.

We know God has prepared works for us, is this legalism if we do those works? Does the work itself save you? No, not at all, yet if you don't have faith, you won't do the work.

It's not a burden to do His works, it is a privilege that He lets us participate with Him in building His Kingdom.

However, there are those who take anti-legalism to the other extreme and refuse to live by any rules for themselves, an example might be taking care of themselves, or as you mentioned even tithing, just to "prove" they are not legalistic.

We have to be careful when labeling something legalistic - when it's not.

Blessings to you.

[Farmgal]

I have been watching this thread and was a little confused about what others had to say about the law and legalism, granted we are to live by the Spirit and not the law, but to disregard the law as some are doing is to miss the point of what Jesus did for us regarding the law, which is not legalism. The law is to be fully met in us, not disregarding, but carried out in such a way with Christ in us, so we might follow fully the law in us.

Romans 8:4 In order that the righteous requirements of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the sinful nature but according to the Spirit.

The mistake some people make is seeing "works" as a form of legalism, yet in James we read, "Faith without works is dead", he even goes on to say, "You foolish man, do you really need proof that faith without deeds is worthless?" If we don't have works, then we don't have faith, if we don't have faith, we don't have works.

Legalism becomes a problem when a person has been convicted of a sin through the Spirit, and another hasn't. A sin for one person is not necessarily a sin for another, for instance, drinking can be a sin for one and not for another. I personally have been convicted to not have any alcohol, but then I see many younger people drinking, they might see me as legalistic, but the problem is, if I drink then I disobey God.

Well sin is sin as far as the law. But in areas that are not specific (the Bible says don’t become drunk not don’t drink) sometimes people get carried away. I see what you’re saying though. I’m the kind of person that can be somewhat obsessive (lol yes I admit). So I know for me drinking is not a good idea.

In the example of alcohol it seems it results in the Bible more often than not in trouble. Here’s a few examples from the OT and NT.

---------------------------------

Genesis 9:20-26 - Noah became drunk; the result was immorality and family trouble.

Genesis 19:30-38 - Lot was so drunk he did not know what he was doing; this led to immorality

Leviticus 10:9-11 - God commanded priests not to drink so that they could tell the difference between the holy and the unholy.

1 Samuel 1:14-15 - Accused, Hannah said she drank no wine.

1 Samuel 25:32-38 - Nabal died after a drunken spree.

2 Samuel 11:13 - By getting Uriah drunk, David hoped to cover his sin.

2 Samuel 13:28-29 - Amnon was drunk when he was killed.

1 Kings 20:12-21 - Ben-Hadad and 32 other kings were drinking when they were attacked and defeated by the Israelites.

Proverbs 4:17 - Alcoholic drink is called the wine of violence.

Proverbs 20:1 - Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging.

Proverbs 23:19-20 - A wise person will not be among the drinkers of alcoholic beverages.

Proverbs 23:21 - Drunkenness causes poverty.

Proverbs 23:35 - Alcohol makes the drinker insensitive to pain so he does not perceive it as a warning. Alcohol is habit forming.

Isaiah 19:14 - Drunken men stagger in their vomit.

Isaiah 24:9 - Drinkers cannot escape the consequences when God judges.

Romans 13:13 - Do not walk in drunkenness or immorality.

1 Corinthians 6:10 - Drunkards will not inherit the kingdom of God

Ephesians 5:18 - In contrast to being drunk with wine, the believer is to be filled with the Spirit.

1 Peter 4:3-4 - The past life of drunkenness and carousing has no place in the Christian’s life.

For more see: http://www.scionofzi...om/drinking.htm

---------------------------------

Alcohol is clearly not very beneficial and leads to poor choices. Of course not everyone gets drunk every time they drink. The issue becomes Farmgal if or when because I have an issue with something I impose it on everyone else. This is legalism. Is this what you're talking about? Would you agree?

I would agree if we impose what God has convicted of us, to impose it onto anyone else.

On the other hand, God has told us to be Holy, are we Holy when we look like the world?

As I mentioned in the post prior to this one, a person can be so far from legalism they look like the world, they chose to follow the world to prove they are not legalistic. It sets a person up to do whatever it is they want to do because we're not following any laws.

The point I was trying to make when I brought the topic of law is that the 2 greatest commandments are to love the Lord with all of our heart, mind and soul and love our neighbor as ourselves and when we do this, we do not break the law. The righteous requirements of the law are fulfilled in us so that we are doing by nature the law, we are a new creation, obeying the law through our love for God and Christ in us.

There is a fine line between legalism and not legalism, we must obey, is that legalism?