I. Legalism: Defined

[GoldenEagle]

Since posts 173 through 178 were once again addressing the definition of legalism they were moved from this topic:

God bless

GE

[GoldenEagle]

Sevenseas

]Legalism, with the need for spiritual security that lies behind it, is an opiate for many Christians, a spiritual narcotic designed to compensate for a largely graceless form of religious belief

Sevenseas, this is something you posted, and I called it psychological mumbo jumbo. You defended it, so I am simply asking you what that comment I called mumbo jumbo means to you? How does legalism act as a type of narcotic? How is it an opiate for many Christians? If you don't know, just say so and move on. I asked you this once, and you completely ignored the question and started in with personal attacks. If you posted this, and you believe it to be true, it shouldn't be hard for you to explain what it means? If it only sounded good, and you don't really know how to explain it, fine. You are not the only one that has ever done that, but there is no need for personal attacks, and when you say you don't care if personal attacks made by you are reported, you are basically saying you are free to violate the rules whenever you want and don't care about the consequences. Here are those questions.

How does legalisim act as a type of narcotic?

How is it an opiate for many Christians?

Why get offended when someone simply asks you to explain the meaning of something you said?

In addition, I never hijacked this thread as you claim. I was responding to a specific point made by GE in the OP. At first, I thought he was going to address each point one by one, so I waited for a time and was going to keep silent till he got to point 6, but nobody was posting anymore, and I didn't have questions or comments about all the points, so I asked about point 6. You can't hijack a thread when you comment directly about something in the thread. We are all trying to promote our views, including you. The difference is, that when asked about something I said, I will try to explain it, rather than attacking those who asked the question.

Hey Butero if you noticed brother, Sevenseas was just quoting what the site said and highlighting what she thought was interesting. She didn't say it herself just put it out there. It also wasn't addressed directly to you but in the thread in general. There is really nothing to explain on her part. Perhaps you could look up the site she linked to get a clearer understanding of what Ken Cascio was trying to say overall and in context with the site she linked here? Do you think Legalism is not a drug? If so care to refute Ken's idea?

God bless,

GE

[GoldenEagle]

Here is an interesting link concerning legalism. I think it defines the subject very well.

Legalism, with the need for spiritual security that lies behind it, is an opiate for many Christians, a spiritual narcotic designed to compensate for a largely graceless form of religious belief

I've actually been thinking about this comment by Ken these last couple of days.

Question: How do you convince an addict to give up his drug of choice?

Regarding these defintions... I've highlighted in red what I think the author Ken meant. At least this is how I see it.

Narcotic

Noun

1. any of a class of substances that blunt the senses, as opium, morphine, belladonna, and alcohol, that in large quantities produce euphoria, stupor, or coma, that when used constantly can cause habituation or addiction, and that are used in medicine to relieve pain, cause sedation, and induce sleep.

2. anything that exercises a soothing or numbing effect or influence: Television is a narcotic for many people.

Opiate

Noun

1. a drug containing opium or its derivatives, used in medicine for inducing sleep and relieving pain.

2. any sedative, soporific, or narcotic.

3. anything that causes dullness or inaction or that soothes the feelings.

Thoughts?

God bless,

GE

[nebula]

The self righteousness of the the legalist helps them to avoid taking a closer look at the cross of Christ as the only means to God's favor..

...

Legalism focuses on performance and certain behaviors rather than on dying to self.

Good point here. Legalism defines the heart by the actions, seeks to enforce actions as the means to change the heart, and focuses on changing behavior without ministering to the wounds that may behind incorrect behavior.

Legalism binds a person into conformity rather than leading a person to the cross of Christ.

[Sevenseas]

With regards to yr thoughts on that link GE, I guess I would pretty much understand those words as you have explained. Those drugs, opiates...(I've never been involved with taking

those substances but we all have knowledge in this day and age) are habit forming and dull the senses. People take them to feel better/to forget.....

this quote fitting in with that concept and from the same site: Legalism is the morphine that numbs the pain of uncertainty.

I realize this is very strong wording...but so are the words of a legalist and the condemnation that comes with upsetting the legalist apple cart (if you are a legalist)

must be such that conformity is desired and a place in which to hide from questions...like a security blanket; hence the comparison to opiates and narcotics by the author

Another quote that reflects the love that actually does reach out to people: Unconditional love is the "thorn in the side" that moves a person. Unconditional love is the kind of love God shows to us and that Jesus lived. Unconditional love cares what people do, but cares for the people more than their behavior. Unconditional love enables us to separate sin from the sinner and see the person beneath. Unconditional love convicts of hatred, bigotry, arrogance, and isolationism. Unconditional love, mixed with patience, works for these goals and achieves

So reading and reflecting on those things (and similar from the site) I would ask: " Is it easier to tell someone to put on a hat, cut or grow your hair, what to wear and how to act then it is to

take a 'chance' on someone, pray for them and see them come to repentance and have a renewed heart?

That is not to say that everyone who wishes to conform in a legalistic manner does not know or love Jesus or even others...however, legalism defined focuses more on the outward as an

expression of obedience than a heart that forgives because that heart has itself, been forgiven. For example, a parent may punish a child for committing some wrong or forbidden activity

and yet the child continues so punishment continues. A parent who explains the reasons and the repercussions shows more than just a desire to have the child obey or 'fit in'

I have a funny example of that actually. When I was a child, I was very forgettful of time as I loved being outside and going on 'adventures'. I was often late for supper, paid little

attention to 'be home or else' and would breeze in when I was good and ready...not all the time but regularly. One day I was told 'if you are late today, you will get a spanking.'

Well, I was late...and I walked in the door to meet the grim face of my father who obviously did not relish having to give me a spanking...because even though it was my mother who had

said the words, the action was bestowed upon my dad who never hit ever once...while my mom would even throw things (she had bad aim) when she would get angry enough. Well downstairs

we went and I was told to present myself for the spanking (through my clothes) and I just could not believe it. My mother was upstairs and listening for the whacks no doubt. Well, my dad

obliged twice and then stopped...he was crying...he could not do it...I started crying and put my arms around his neck and he took my hand and we went back upstairs and he looked

at my mother and said "I'm not going to do that. Don't ever tell me to do that again." Well he was my heroe. My mother was angry (what else was new) but my dad helped me to

understand far more than a spanking.

I saw he loved me too much to hit me, I saw I had hurt him by my actions and I made up my mind to try and be on time. I saw my mother as angry because her will was not carried out and

she was angry at both my dad and me now.

Love for me is understanding and really seeing the other person...who THEY are..not who you want them to be. That, is what reached me...not threats or punishment or fear....but my dad

simply because he loved me and forgave me...that meant something.

[Sevenseas]

The self righteousness of the the legalist helps them to avoid taking a closer look at the cross of Christ as the only means to God's favor..

...

Legalism focuses on performance and certain behaviors rather than on dying to self.

Good point here. Legalism defines the heart by the actions, seeks to enforce actions as the means to change the heart, and focuses on changing behavior without ministering to the wounds that may behind incorrect behavior.

Legalism binds a person into conformity rather than leading a person to the cross of Christ.

Yes...If I remember right, those are both quotes also

The cross is humbling as we get down on our knees...we have each been the cause of Jesus on that cross and when we look up and see He is looking back at us,

we must respond one way or another.

I think some may be embarrassed by the rawness of that emotion, but it is our own hearts He wants us to see

[GoldenEagle]

Legalism binds a person into conformity rather than leading a person to the cross of Christ.

I agree with this. This is legalism in a nutshell to me.

[nebula]

I saw he loved me too much to hit me, I saw I had hurt him by my actions and I made up my mind to try and be on time. I saw my mother as angry because her will was not carried out and she was angry at both my dad and me now.

Wow!

Yes, this example definitely illustrates the difference between legalism and grace.

[GoldenEagle]

I saw he loved me too much to hit me, I saw I had hurt him by my actions and I made up my mind to try and be on time. I saw my mother as angry because her will was not carried out and she was angry at both my dad and me now.

Wow!

Yes, this example definitely illustrates the difference between legalism and grace.

Wow x 2

[GoldenEagle]

How does legalisim act as a type of narcotic?

How is it an opiate for many Christians?

I asked Butero's questions to a friend...

I proposed the following:

Perhpas the idea is that people need to soothe their feelings and their mind. Legalism provides an environment that is supposedly controllable? Perhaps it the attraction to legalism comes from a false sense of self-worth and self-confidence?

These are my thoughts on the matter...

My friend who we'll call her Rebekah... said:

I would say that like a drug - legalism blunts the pain of the past for many who came from the 60's/70's. It also brings a "high" because you feel spiritual. In order to continue to get high and dull the pain you start adding more and more rules. Can't feel God - no problem, just add another rule . Eventually you MUST have rules in order to survive. They are what keep you from feeling like a failure.