Israel's Promise and Being Grafted In...

[Guest shiloh357]

Please clarify something. The believeing Jewish community is not part of the Church (not the church)? Are you making a separation between Jews & Gentiles? If so how do you come to conclusion that there is a difference between Jewish believers and non-Jewish believers?

What I am saying is that believing Jews are the Israel of God, but they are also members of the body of Christ, the Church. I am saying that they are one with Gentiles believers in the Church, but that God has not set aside biblical Israel which Paul has adequately defined for us as the faithful Jewish remnant. Paul makes it clear that simply being ethnically Jewish does not mean that one is part of the Israel of God.

That having been said, that does not mean that God has abandoned the physical nation of Israel, either. God is restoring that nation in unbelief and that is according to Ezekiel 36 and 37. They both speak of a physical restoration followed a spiritual one.

I was stating that I did not agree with replacement theology as it was stated in the site I mentioned. If it was an accurate depiction of RT them I do not agree with their possition. RT is not upheld by scripture.

Good to know. So you agree the Jews are still God's chosen people?

[GoldenEagle]

The two questions becomes: A. How do we know Israel is God’s chosen people? And B. Are Christians grafted into God’s promise to Israel?

I fully believe the covenants and the promises are active today.

The 2 questions is another matter.

A. I do not know that all the people inhabiting the present nation known as Israel are God's chosen people. How and in what sense do you mean God's chosen? By Israel do you mean all the inhabitants, just the ofspring of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. or something else.

B. By Christians do you mean gentiles or all Christians, Jew and Gentile alike?

Grace & Peace

LT

A. God's Chosen people are the Jews (Hebrew's who are Believers)- Israel. I think Matthitjah and shiloh357 explained it quite well. I do agree there are many other people's in Israel as of right now.

Re: Promises

Good thread on the Promise!

Something interesting is this;

"I will make you a Great Nation" is fulfilled in a threefold way;

Natural Posterity (Hebrew people)

Spriritual Posterity (Christ)

Physical Posterity amongst the Nations (Ishmael)

"I will Bless Thee" fulfilled in two ways;

Temporal

Spiritual

"Make thy Name Great" is self explanatory;

Abraham's name is a Universally recognized Name

"I will bless them that bless thee and curse them that curse thee" is self evident in the possessions and disperisons of the land.

"In thee shall all the families of the earth be blessed" is fulfilled in Christ;

Ga 3:16

Now to Abraham and his descendant were the promises made. He says not, And to descendants, as of many; but as of one, And to your descendant, who is Christ.

Re: Israel


 What I am saying is that believing Jews are the Israel of God, but they are also members of the body of Christ, the Church. I am saying that they are one with Gentiles believers in the Church, but that God has not set aside biblical Israel which Paul has adequately defined for us as the faithful Jewish remnant.

Paul makes it clear that simply being ethnically Jewish does not mean that one is part of the Israel of God.

That having been said, that does not mean that God has abandoned the physical nation of Israel, either. God is restoring that nation in unbelief and that is according to Ezekiel 36 and 37. They both speak of a physical restoration followed a spiritual one.


B. Jews who Believe in Jesus are part of the Israel (Hebrew/Jewish Believers) of God (See above by Shiloh). Gentiles are grafted into God's promises to Israel.

I agree with both these posts by these members.

God bless,

GE

[allofgrace]

Much has been said and agreed to about the promise coming through the Seed, that is Christ Jesus by faith which is true and there are many Jews who have given their hearts to the Lord by faith in His finish work of reconciling the believer to the Father. But that does not exclude what scripture says about in the latter days, He will restore Israel back into the vine from which it was severed because of unbelief. I did not want to post all that is said on this but this should suffice to demonstrate the point and I have highlighted what I believe stresses my point on this restoration of the lost ones of Israel and to show that Paul by the Holy Spirit makes this point abundantly clear that this passage is referring to restoring those that are lost but will by faith receive their salvation in Christ Jesus and these come out of the tribulation and I believe along with the saints the Lord will set up His earthly kingdom of a 1000 years and then the end will come after that last releasing of Satan and the short rebellion of the nations.

Rom 11:7 What then? Israel has not obtained what it seeks; but the elect have obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

Rom 11:11-36 I say then, have they stumbled that they should fall? Certainly not! But through their fall, to provoke them to jealousy, salvation has come to the Gentiles. 12 Now if their fall is riches for the world, and their failure riches for the Gentiles, how much more their fullness!

13 For I speak to you Gentiles; inasmuch as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry, 14 if by any means I may provoke to jealousy those who are my flesh and save some of them. 15 For if their being cast away is the reconciling of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?

16 For if the firstfruit is holy, the lump is also holy; and if the root is holy, so are the branches. 17 And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree, 18 do not boast against the branches. But if you do boast, remember that you do not support the root, but the root supports you.

19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.” 20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. 22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24 For if you were cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, who are natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?

25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:

“The Deliverer will come out of Zion,

And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;

27 For this is My covenant with them,

When I take away their sins.”

28 Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. 30 For as you were once disobedient to God, yet have now obtained mercy through their disobedience, 31 even so these also have now been disobedient, that through the mercy shown you they also may obtain mercy. 32 For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all.

33 Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and His ways past finding out!

34 “For who has known the mind of the Lord?

Or who has become His counselor?”

35 “Or who has first given to Him

And it shall be repaid to him?”

36 For of Him and through Him and to Him are all things, to whom be glory forever. Amen.

What is clear is that the covenant made to Abraham must be thoroughly studied to make sure that each side of God's covenant with him is correctly applied. On this side of glory there will be no universal agreement as to who is completely right. I am sure some may even disagree with my post here. Amen! or O me!

[Guest shiloh357]

But that does not exclude what scripture says about in the latter days, He will restore Israel back into the vine from which it was severed because of unbelief. I did not want to post all that is said on this but this should suffice to demonstrate the point and I have highlighted what I believe stresses my point on this restoration of the lost ones of Israel and to show that Paul by the Holy Spirit makes this point abundantly clear that this passage is referring to restoring those that are lost but will by faith receive their salvation in Christ Jesus and these come out of the tribulation and I believe along with the saints the Lord will set up His earthly kingdom of a 1000 years and then the end will come after that last releasing of Satan and the short rebellion of the nations.

The Bible teaches that there are essentially two phases to the restoration of Israel. There is a physical restoration, which is happening even now, right before our eyes. It is a restoration to the Land and it occurs while the majority are still in unbelief. Following the physical restoration to the Land, they will have a spiritual restoration IN the Land. As it stands, we are currently in between Ezekiel 36:24 and Ezekiel 36:25

[GoldenEagle]

The Bible teaches that there are essentially two phases to the restoration of Israel. There is a physical restoration, which is happening even now, right before our eyes. It is a restoration to the Land and it occurs while the majority are still in unbelief. Following the physical restoration to the Land, they will have a spiritual restoration IN the Land. As it stands, we are currently in between Ezekiel 36:24 and Ezekiel 36:25

I agree.

[larryt]

The Bible teaches that there are essentially two phases to the restoration of Israel. There is a physical restoration, which is happening even now, right before our eyes. It is a restoration to the Land and it occurs while the majority are still in unbelief. Following the physical restoration to the Land, they will have a spiritual restoration IN the Land. As it stands, we are currently in between Ezekiel 36:24 and Ezekiel 36:25

I agree essentially with your statement here. God is most definitely gathering the descendants of Abraham, ... to the land of Israel. But don't leave out vs 23 which has a lot of implicatons in this gathering as God will santify His name before He cleanse the remnant of their uncleanness. The Jews for the most part have rejected the Messiah for 2000 yrs and God does not let sin go unpunished.

God is using this gathering to judge the nations around Israel in particular the Palestinians are being judged. You are wondering how I can say this with what I have posted in other threads recently, but this is what I understand and believe. It does not make Israel righteous by being the instrument of God's justice. Babylon was God's instrument of judgement on Israel but that did not make Babylon righteous either. Babylon was judged severely for their brutality on the Jewish people when it came time for their judgement.

The example of a righteous judgemnet by Israel was when they entered the pomised land and destroyed the abominations of the Canaanites. But even this was conditoned on Israel remaining faithful as when the fell away God put them back into bondage.

Grace & Peace

LT

[Guest shiloh357]

The Bible teaches that there are essentially two phases to the restoration of Israel. There is a physical restoration, which is happening even now, right before our eyes. It is a restoration to the Land and it occurs while the majority are still in unbelief. Following the physical restoration to the Land, they will have a spiritual restoration IN the Land. As it stands, we are currently in between Ezekiel 36:24 and Ezekiel 36:25

I agree essentially with your statement here. God is most definitely gathering the descendants of Abraham, ... to the land of Israel. But don't leave out vs 23 which has a lot of implicatons in this gathering as God will santify His name before He cleanse the remnant of their uncleanness. The Jews for the most part have rejected the Messiah for 2000 yrs and God does not let sin go unpunished.

God is using this gathering to judge the nations around Israel in particular the Palestinians are being judged. You are wondering how I can say this with what I have posted in other threads recently, but this is what I understand and believe. It does not make Israel righteous by being the instrument of God's justice. Babylon was God's instrument of judgement on Israel but that did not make Babylon righteous either. Babylon was judged severely for their brutality on the Jewish people when it came time for their judgement.

The example of a righteous judgemnet by Israel was when they entered the pomised land and destroyed the abominations of the Canaanites. But even this was conditoned on Israel remaining faithful as when the fell away God put them back into bondage.

Grace & Peace

LT

God makes it clear that restoring Israel is not on the grounds of their righteousness but for hte sanctification of His Name among the nations. God is doing this to bring glory to Himself, not because Israel deserves it.

[Matthitjah]

The Bible teaches that there are essentially two phases to the restoration of Israel. There is a physical restoration, which is happening even now, right before our eyes. It is a restoration to the Land and it occurs while the majority are still in unbelief. Following the physical restoration to the Land, they will have a spiritual restoration IN the Land. As it stands, we are currently in between Ezekiel 36:24 and Ezekiel 36:25

I agree essentially with your statement here. God is most definitely gathering the descendants of Abraham, ... to the land of Israel. But don't leave out vs 23 which has a lot of implicatons in this gathering as God will santify His name before He cleanse the remnant of their uncleanness. The Jews for the most part have rejected the Messiah for 2000 yrs and God does not let sin go unpunished.

God is using this gathering to judge the nations around Israel in particular the Palestinians are being judged. You are wondering how I can say this with what I have posted in other threads recently, but this is what I understand and believe. It does not make Israel righteous by being the instrument of God's justice. Babylon was God's instrument of judgement on Israel but that did not make Babylon righteous either. Babylon was judged severely for their brutality on the Jewish people when it came time for their judgement.

The example of a righteous judgemnet by Israel was when they entered the pomised land and destroyed the abominations of the Canaanites. But even this was conditoned on Israel remaining faithful as when the fell away God put them back into bondage.

Grace & Peace

LT

God makes it clear that restoring Israel is not on the grounds of their righteousness but for hte sanctification of His Name among the nations. God is doing this to bring glory to Himself, not because Israel deserves it.

Amen! It always was about His Glory.

[larryt]

The Bible teaches that there are essentially two phases to the restoration of Israel. There is a physical restoration, which is happening even now, right before our eyes. It is a restoration to the Land and it occurs while the majority are still in unbelief. Following the physical restoration to the Land, they will have a spiritual restoration IN the Land. As it stands, we are currently in between Ezekiel 36:24 and Ezekiel 36:25

I agree essentially with your statement here. God is most definitely gathering the descendants of Abraham, ... to the land of Israel. But don't leave out vs 23 which has a lot of implicatons in this gathering as God will santify His name before He cleanse the remnant of their uncleanness. The Jews for the most part have rejected the Messiah for 2000 yrs and God does not let sin go unpunished.

God is using this gathering to judge the nations around Israel in particular the Palestinians are being judged. You are wondering how I can say this with what I have posted in other threads recently, but this is what I understand and believe. It does not make Israel righteous by being the instrument of God's justice. Babylon was God's instrument of judgement on Israel but that did not make Babylon righteous either. Babylon was judged severely for their brutality on the Jewish people when it came time for their judgement.

The example of a righteous judgemnet by Israel was when they entered the pomised land and destroyed the abominations of the Canaanites. But even this was conditoned on Israel remaining faithful as when the fell away God put them back into bondage.

Grace & Peace

LT

God makes it clear that restoring Israel is not on the grounds of their righteousness but for hte sanctification of His Name among the nations. God is doing this to bring glory to Himself, not because Israel deserves it.

I agree with you totally on this. It is all about His glory and lifting up the Son so that all men would be drawn unto Him.

Grace and Peace

LT

[larryt]

Please clarify something. The believeing Jewish community is not part of the Church (not the church)? Are you making a separation between Jews & Gentiles? If so how do you come to conclusion that there is a difference between Jewish believers and non-Jewish believers?

What I am saying is that believing Jews are the Israel of God, but they are also members of the body of Christ, the Church. I am saying that they are one with Gentiles believers in the Church, but that God has not set aside biblical Israel which Paul has adequately defined for us as the faithful Jewish remnant. Paul makes it clear that simply being ethnically Jewish does not mean that one is part of the Israel of God.

I agree that it is clear that being ethically Jewish is not the qualification. But it would appear to me that you are saying there is a difference between believeing Jews and Gentile believers. Paul makes it quite clear that there should be no schism in the body of Christ. There are not superior positions. In Christ all are equal. The faithful Jewish remnant who were cut off and now grafted back in to the heavenly kingdom. Jesus said to the unbelieveing nation that your house is desolate. Mt 23;34-39 and Lu 13:31-35. The faitlful Jewish remnant are part of the Church and citizens of the Kingdom of God, a heavenly kingdom. There is only one Kingdom that Christ is the Head of as Lord of lords and King of kings.

Ga 3:7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.

Ga 3:8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, [saying], In thee shall all nations be blessed.

Ga 3:9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.

Ga 3:29 And if ye [be] Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Does this not say that all believers are Abraham's seed? that I, a gentile, am a child of Abraham? Notice it says seed as in one whch is Christ. It is in Christ that is the important point to all of this. Believeing Jews are only in the kingdom because they are in Christ same as believeing Gentiles. If we are not in Christ there is no hope at all for any of us Jew or Gentile.

And the Israel of God is the spiritual Kingdom that Christ is the head of that includes all believers Jew and Gentile alike.

That having been said, that does not mean that God has abandoned the physical nation of Israel, either. God is restoring that nation in unbelief and that is according to Ezekiel 36 and 37. They both speak of a physical restoration followed a spiritual one.

I was stating that I did not agree with replacement theology as it was stated in the site I mentioned. If it was an accurate depiction of RT them I do not agree with their possition. RT is not upheld by scripture.

Good to know. So you agree the Jews are still God's chosen people?

I agree that God has not abandoned the physical nation of Israel. And that He is gathering them together in the land in unbelief.

As regard to RT the church has not replaced Israel. For me I do not see a difference. The church and Israel are essentially the same. True Israel has only consisted of believers though physical Israel has both believers and non-believers. The Church is the same. The true church consists of only believers. there are tares in all physical cngregation. Israel is a TYPE of the Church. It is a physical representation of a Spiritual reality. The nation that is born in a day is the nation when Christ returns and physically rules the world from the Throne of David in Jerusalem the City of David.

The Jews where chosen in whole for a purpose to bring forth the Messiah. On a different level only believing Jews are the chosen of God just as I am chosen of God for His purposes. So in that sense I am one of the chosen people.

Grace & Peace

LT