Matthew 24:29-31, is this the rapture or second coming or both?

[rollinTHUNDER]

Looking at Rev 19:7 though:

7“Let us rejoice and be glad and give the glory to Him, for the marriage of the Lamb has come and His bride has made herself ready.”

hoti ēlthen ho gamos tou arniou kai hē gynē autou

"has come" , ēlthen , is aorist indicative active, which might indicate that the marriage is starting soon, not that is has passed. This is also hinted at in the fact that we see the bride is now ready, i.e. still waiting for the event?

Not to read too much into this, or at least no more that others do with differing opinions, let looks also at verse 9:

9Then he said to me, "Write, Blessed are those who are invited to the marriage supper of the Lamb.'" Speaking of guests who are invited, also sounds as though there is a wedding to take place, not one which has.

Continuing on..... If you take this verse alone, one could assume that the entire church was ready, but this is only the half of it. Remember, Jesus was warning His servants to be ready, and we know that the slothful or lazy servant was not ready, and was left in the field.... So what is to become of those that were left? Now lets take a look at the other half.

Revelation 14:13

And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

There are two ways to enter into the kingdom of heaven for those that are alive when He comes, and only two ways (rapture/martyr). We have to be ready if we are going to the marriage supper....one is taken, the other left....five were wise, five were foolish. Revelation is not in chronological order, but Matthew 24 is.

So, if it is possible to understand that the guests and the bride are ready for the wedding, and with the next chronicled event in Revelation being the coming, is it really unrealistic to suppose that perhaps the marriage and supper takes place at or after the second coming, and not force it before that?

It is extremly easy to suppose details that are not specified, and import them into the text and then draw conclusions that are not necessarily called for. I think this is especially so in the book of Revelation, which is probably why I am a bit gunshy about it, I actually beleive that for me, if I cannot prove a concept in Revelation without backup from other clearer books of the bible, that my accuracy level might not even reach 50%. Since I immodesltly believe myself to be of at least average intelligence, and at least moderately well read in the bible, and have a grasp of sound, exegetical methodologies as well as assuming no one has a monopoly on the indwelling Holy Spirit, I tend to me as suppicious of other people's theories as I am of my own. When I hear someone say the they got their understanding directly from God (not meaning anyone in particular) here, I am doubly suspicious, lol.

Now, if my suspicions are correct about the marriage supper being after the trib, then of course there is 7 years ( or more specifically 3.5 years) for martyrs to refuse the mark and be killed.

You lost me here. I'm not sure what you mean.

As far as the sheep and goats at the end of Matt 25, I am sorry, I am not seeing the problem, Can you explain the issue in detail?

No problem, I was just curious to see what your thoughts were. You may disregard this if you like, because I'm not sure we have a good enough understanding of each others view to discuss this yet.

[rollinTHUNDER]

I believe scripture is very clear that it is after the tribulation, but we need to be careful of this word as well, because modern scholars have created for themselves a so-called seven year tribulation, where they have essentially replaced Daniel's 70th week and want us to believe the two are one and the same. However, the tribulation is cut short for the sake of the elect, but Daniel's 70th week can not be shortened, unless Daniel was a false prophet, which is not even remotely possible.

It certainly isn't shortened, if anything it's lengthened.

¹¹ “And from the time that the daily sacrifice is taken away, and the abomination of desolation is set up, there shall be one thousand two hundred and ninety days. ¹² Blessed is he who waits, and comes to the one thousand three hundred and thirty-five days.

It's obvious that the great tribulation is shortened based on what Jesus says in Matthew 24, which has been covered here. The 1290 vs. 1335 day period in the second half of the 70th week has had me pondering for a bit.

But there is "tribulation for the full seven years (70th week of Daniel). The tribulation for the "tribulation saints', first half. And tribulation for the nation of Israel during the second half. Then there is tribulation upon the whole world during the second half in which the S, T, and B Judgments occur.

Steve

Think of the extra 30 days as the length of the Battle of Armageddon, and the extra 45 days for the time it takes for the birds of the air to eat the flesh of men and horses at Armageddon.

The 70 weeks cannot be shortened (It is Prophecy) But the days are shortened in Rev 8:12. Say a 12 hour day is shortened to an 8 hour day. 1/3 less light.

In Christ

Montana Marv

Good luck trying to prove that, Marv. There is only one tribulation mentioned inside of Daniel's 70th week, and it occurs after the abomination of desolation, also known as the great tribulation. The tribulation saints are merely those believers living at the time of the end (the final generation that will be here to witness these things)....one will be taken, the other left......five were wise, five were foolish.

[Montana Marv]

Thunder

So you would not consider not being able to buy or sell, because of not receiving the Mark of the Beast, as a trial or tribulation. For this is pre A/D. Being sent into captivity must not be a trial or tribulation for individuals. Starvation is an easy going word. Great distress is discribed in Matt 24:21. This occurs after the A/D is set up, as you say. Trials and tribulations are an ongoing event for Christians and even some non Christians. It has been so since Stephen was killed. And even before that. For that is how we are tested.

We shine or we fade.

Rev 3:10 - Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to test those who live on the earth. This was written to a first century church, yet it has implications in churchs today, as do the other letters.

In Christ

Montana Marv

[rollinTHUNDER]

Thunder

So you would not consider not being able to buy or sell, because of not receiving the Mark of the Beast, as a trial or tribulation. For this is pre A/D. Being sent into captivity must not be a trial or tribulation for individuals. Starvation is an easy going word.

Yes these are trials for individuals, but they don't happen before the abomination of desolation, nor is it what Christ meant by great tribulation.

There are two applications for the word tribulation in the Bible. The first application speaks of the troubles, persecution and/or trials we go through in life as individuals. These trials and tribulations have existed since the first advent at least. The second application is used when we are discussing the end-times or Bible prophecy, which speaks of distress in the world between nations, such as battles and war. It was Christ, Himself, that first coined the term tribulation, in relation to the endtimes.

Matthew 24:21-22

For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. [22] And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect’s sake those days shall be shortened.

Now take a close look at the first verse in the passage above. A great tribulation, unknown since the beginning of the world up to that time, and never shall it be equalled again. In other words, a future great distress or major crisis will develop in the world that has never been seen before in the history of man. It will be much worse than World War I, World War II, the world-wide war on terror and probably far worse than all of the other wars in the world combined. Can you imagine a world crisis in the future that would be far worse than the holocaust under Hitler, when over 13 million people were brutally murdered? The war in the great tribulation will be unbelievable, not millions or even billions, but trillions will be killed. Christ will have to intervene and shorten the days, otherwise no flesh would be saved. Now let's compare Christ' prophecy with Daniel's:

Daniel called it a time of trouble. Christ called it a great tribulation, but there is no mistaking that they were both clearly describing the same endtime event. I’ll post both verses below, so we can compare the two.

Matthew 24:21-22

For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. [22] And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect’s sake those days shall be shortened.

Daniel 12:1

And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

There's no doubt they are both describing the very same event. As an interesting side note, Daniel's next verse shows the resurrection of the dead following the time of trouble (tribulation), where Christ goes on to describe the angels gathering His elect from among the living. This is the first mystery I solved in my book, and when you add these together, it fits perfectly with what Paul said about this mystery, the dead rise first, then those who are alive.... This is actually the increase of knowledge that Daniel was not permitted to know when he was told to shut up the words and seal the book until the time of the end... Daniel 12 has absolutely nothing to do with modern technology, even though most modern scholars believe and teach otherwise.

Zechariah 12:3

On that day, when all the nations of the earth are gathered against her, I will make Jerusalem an immovable rock for all the nations.

Joel 3:2

In those days and at that time, when I restore the fortunes of Judah and Jerusalem, [2] I will gather all nations and bring them down to the Valley of Jehoshaphat. There I will put them on trial for what they did to my inheritance, my people Israel, because they scattered my people among the nations and divided up my land.

As you can see, the nations are on trial here, not individuals, in the great tribulation that no nation has ever seen before. We already have a Middle East Crisis, but it's going to get a hundred times worse.

Great distress is discribed in Matt 24:21. This occurs after the A/D is set up, as you say. Trials and tribulations are an ongoing event for Christians and even some non Christians. It has been so since Stephen was killed. And even before that. For that is how we are tested.

We shine or we fade.

Rev 3:10 - Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to test those who live on the earth. This was written to a first century church, yet it has implications in churchs today, as do the other letters.

In Christ

Montana Marv

Yes, I agree here. These are trials that individuals will go through, but I don't understand how you are placing it before the AoD.

[missmuffet]

The Second Coming.

[Guest]

Just for clarification RT, so far, I do subscribe to the "yoyo theory" lol. Of course, the yoyo is upside down. Either way, it is a yoyo theory, unless everyone is stuck in the air. The question is: "Is Jesus the yoyo, right side up, or is the church the yoyo upside down?"

[Montana Marv]

Thunder

Your qoute:

Matthew 24:21-22

For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. [22] And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect’s sake those days shall be shortened.

Now take a close look at the first verse in the passage above. A great tribulation, unknown since the beginning of the world up to that time, and never shall it be equalled again. In other words, a future great distress or major crisis will develop in the world that has never been seen before in the history of man. It will be much worse than World War I, World War II, the world-wide war on terror and probably far worse than all of the other wars in the world combined. Can you imagine a world crisis in the future that would be far worse than the holocaust under Hitler, when over 13 million people were brutally murdered? The war in the great tribulation will be unbelievable, not millions or even billions, but trillions will be killed. Christ will have to intervene and shorten the days, otherwise no flesh would be saved. Now let's compare Christ' prophecy with Daniel's:

Daniel called it a time of trouble. Christ called it a great tribulation, but there is no mistaking that they were both clearly describing the same endtime event. I’ll post both verses below, so we can compare the two.

Matthew 24:21-22

For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. [22] And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect’s sake those days shall be shortened.

Daniel 12:1

And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

There's no doubt they are both describing the very same event. As an interesting side note, Daniel's next verse shows the resurrection of the dead following the time of trouble (tribulation), where Christ goes on to describe the angels gathering His elect from among the living. This is the first mystery I solved in my book, and when you add these together, it fits perfectly with what Paul said about this mystery, the dead rise first, then those who are alive.... This is actually the increase of knowledge that Daniel was not permitted to know when he was told to shut up the words and seal the book until the time of the end... Daniel 12 has absolutely nothing to do with modern technology, even though most modern scholars believe and teach otherwise.

I also believe that this time of distress discribed in Matt 24 and Dan 12 and the same. But Dan 12 is all about Israel and no one else. So the discription of the multitudes who sleep in the dust who awake, some go into everlasting life, others into everlasting contempt. in Dan 12 2 are referring to Daniels people. So one cannot tie this verse to what Paul says in 1 Thes 4. about the dead in Christ rising first. Two seperate and different events. 1 Thes 4 never mentions of any going into everlasting comtempt. But it can be tied to Christ having his elect (in hevean above and on earth below) gathered at His Second Coming. So no mystery has been solved.

Another qoute:

Zechariah 12:3

On that day, when all the nations of the earth are gathered against her, I will make Jerusalem an immovable rock for all the nations.

Joel 3:2

In those days and at that time, when I restore the fortunes of Judah and Jerusalem, [2] I will gather all nations and bring them down to the Valley of Jehoshaphat. There I will put them on trial for what they did to my inheritance, my people Israel, because they scattered my people among the nations and divided up my land.

As you can see, the nations are on trial here, not individuals, in the great tribulation that no nation has ever seen before. We already have a Middle East Crisis, but it's going to get a hundred times worse.

Joel is not referring to a trial during the last 42 months, but at the onset of the 1000 years. At that time when I restore the fortunes of Judah and Jerusalem, v2. I will gather the nations and bring them down to the Valley of Jehoshaphat. This has nothing to do with the 70 week of Daniel, but after the Second Coming once Israels fortunes are restored..

In Christ

Montana Marv

[rollinTHUNDER]

I also believe that this time of distress discribed in Matt 24 and Dan 12 and the same.

Both occur after the AoD, same tribulation, same time, and the same resurrection. The only real difference is that Daniel was told about the resurrection of the dead (whoever's name was written in the book), while Christ told about the rapture of those who were living and ready when He appears.

Another interesting note: New Testament has the book of life. Old Testament has the book of the living, probably the same book (righteous).

But Dan 12 is all about Israel and no one else.

That's what I was always told as well, that the resurrection in Dan. 12 and the gathering of the elect in Matt.24 had nothing to do with the resurrection/rapture. But this is why I spent the first two chapters in my book untangling assumptions and misconceptions and disproving what modern scholars have been teaching. I don't just make wild claims, for everything is backed with scripture. Probably one-third of my book is quoted scripture. One thing that must be realized here is that there is not a separate resurrection for Israel and then another for the church. Both will be joined together in the kingdom of heaven. There is one resurrection for the righteous and one resurrection for the unrighteous or disobedient (just and unjust). They are 1000 years apart, but Daniel had no way of knowing this then.

So the discription of the multitudes who sleep in the dust who awake, some go into everlasting life, others into everlasting contempt. in Dan 12 2 are referring to Daniels people.

Don't forget, it's very important to remember that we gentiles are grafted into the same olive tree (Israel). Those who awake to the everlasting life will go in the first resurrection with the just or righteous. The un-righteous must wait 1000 years, but at that time, Daniel had no way of knowing this. Daniel was given some very telling information, but he could not understand it. The Jews already believed in the resurrection (Job 14:14,Psalm 71:20,Ezek.33:15), but since Christ had not yet come, Daniel wasn't going to get any prophecies about the rapture and other things that weren't revealed until much later. This is why he was told to shut up the words and seal the book until the time of the end: many will run to and fro and knowledge shall be increased. Christ came about 500 years later, and then the New Testament, which contained the increase of knowledge that would answer Daniel's question and many other things. Old Testament saints had no way of knowing these things, but today, we New Testament saints know because of the increase of knowledge that came in the New Testament. There's a lot more to this, but I'm not going to be able to list everything here, but look what Daniel was told when he started asking for more information:

Daniel 12:8-9

And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things?

[9] And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.

The increase of knowledge has nothing to do with modern technology whatsoever. What was shut up and sealed was the very words to this prophecy, which would be continued later.

So one cannot tie this verse to what Paul says in 1 Thes 4. about the dead in Christ rising first. Two seperate and different events. 1 Thes 4 never mentions of any going into everlasting comtempt. But it can be tied to Christ having his elect (in hevean above and on earth below) gathered at His Second Coming. So no mystery has been solved.

From what you have written above, it appears that you believe the New Testament saints will meet in heaven above, while the Old Testament saints stay on the earth, is that right? But actually, both the Old and New Testament saints will meet in the clouds/air. The only ones who will remain on the ground are the one-third remnant of the Jews that flee to the mountains, and the sheep that are separated from the goats at the end of the age, both of which will remain in their flesh and re-populate the earth in the millennium, which will be ruled over by Christ and the saints that return with Him at the second coming.

Here's a couple more passages that should be of interest.

1 Corinthians 10:1-4

[1] Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;

[2] And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;

[3] And did all eat the same spiritual meat;

[4] And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

So even though Christ was concealed in the Old Testament, the Old Testament saints were still in Him. They had to be obedient and live by faith and their faith was counted as righteousness. And the Old Testament saints will also be present at the marriage supper of the Lamb.

Matthew 8:7-12

[7] Jesus said to him, “Shall I come and heal him?”

[8] The centurion replied, “Lord, I do not deserve to have you come under my roof. But just say the word, and my servant will be healed.

[9] For I myself am a man under authority, with soldiers under me. I tell this one, ‘Go,’ and he goes; and that one, ‘Come,’ and he comes. I say to my servant, ‘Do this,’ and he does it.”

[10] When Jesus heard this, he was amazed and said to those following him, “Truly I tell you, I have not found anyone in Israel with such great faith.

[11] I say to you that many will come from the east and the west, and will take their places at the feast with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven.

[12] But the subjects of the kingdom will be thrown outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”

The unblemished lambs that the Jews sacrificed every year at Passover for the forgiveness of sins were symbolic of what Christ did on the cross. The Old Testament saints were looking forward to the promises, while the New Testament saints are looking back at the fulfillment, but Christ died once, for (all).

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, RollinTHUNDER and Montana Marv.

Guys, the answer is quite simple to one who has an open mind to change. The problem (as I see it) is that the 70th Seven of Dani'el 9 is so OFTEN equated to the "Tribulation" of the Olivet Discourse (Matthew 24-25; Mark 13; Luke 21).

There's nowhere in Scripture that equates the two. But, if you would take the time to rationally consider the opinion that the "tribulation" of the Olivet Discourse was far LONGER than a mere 7 years, the Olivet Discourse begins to make sense.

You both know that my take on the Olivet Discourse is that it began in the first century, 40 years after the Messiah left this earth in 70 A.D. That much, IMO, is clear from Yeshua`s warning to His then-present disciples on the mount that day that He gave His famous Discourse. He was talking to THEM, not to some group of people 2,000 years off in the future, warning them to "head for the hills" and to stay on the rooftops in order to get out of Yerushalayim (Jerusalem) over the wall of the Old City. He also warned them that, if they were caught out in the fields when the pressure came, they were NOT to return into the city!

The END of the "tribulation" or the "pressure" (Greek: thlipsis) is not until immediately BEFORE the sun, moon, and stars events that are predicted as accompanying the return of the Messiah by Yeshua` in Matthew 24:29-31, Mark 13:24-27; and Luke 21:25-28.

Therefore, I believe that it is clear from Scripture that this "tribulation" has lasted/will last for about 2,000 years!

And, to answer an objection before it is given, the "shortening of the time" (Matthew 24:22; Mark 13:20) has to do with the individual persecutions WITHIN that 2,000-year period: Rather than it being a time that is CONSISTENTLY a time of persecution and pressure (on both the Jews and the believing Gentiles) to the point that their survival is in jeopardy, there would be periods of relief within that period - minor times of truce and prosperity - to lessen their affect on God's people. Thus, they were not persistently hounded throughout history but were hounded at certain points in history: the Roman persecutions, the Spanish Inquisition, the Crusades, the Russian pogroms, the Holocaust, the steady, Islamic takeover of the French government. All of these were/are PART of the "Tribulation."

I believe that the "Rapture," as many claim is described in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17, is in close conjunction with the timing of the Second Coming proper when the Messiah arrives in the skies above the Holy Land. I do NOT believe that it is "seven years earlier" as the pre tribulation rapturists would say, but then again, it is not in the MIDDLE of the "seven years" nor is it at the END of the "seven years," because the "seven years" or the final Seven of Dani'el 9:24-27 is NOT the "tribulation!" These Sevens have their six purposes and those purposes do NOT include the "tribulation of the earth." They DO, however, include "to bring in everlasting righteousness," and that is PRECISELY what the New Covenant is designed to do for the Isra'elis (Jeremiah 31:31-34; 33:14-22; Romans 11:26-29) which is in ANSWER to the Davidic Covenant!

[rollinTHUNDER]

Shalom, RollinTHUNDER and Montana Marv.

Guys, the answer is quite simple to one who has an open mind to change. The problem (as I see it) is that the 70th Seven of Dani'el 9 is so OFTEN equated to the "Tribulation" of the Olivet Discourse (Matthew 24-25; Mark 13; Luke 21).

There's nowhere in Scripture that equates the two. But, if you would take the time to rationally consider the opinion that the "tribulation" of the Olivet Discourse was far LONGER than a mere 7 years, the Olivet Discourse begins to make sense.

You both know that my take on the Olivet Discourse is that it began in the first century, 40 years after the Messiah left this earth in 70 A.D. That much, IMO, is clear from Yeshua`s warning to His then-present disciples on the mount that day that He gave His famous Discourse. He was talking to THEM, not to some group of people 2,000 years off in the future, warning them to "head for the hills" and to stay on the rooftops in order to get out of Yerushalayim (Jerusalem) over the wall of the Old City. He also warned them that, if they were caught out in the fields when the pressure came, they were NOT to return into the city!

The END of the "tribulation" or the "pressure" (Greek: thlipsis) is not until immediately BEFORE the sun, moon, and stars events that are predicted as accompanying the return of the Messiah by Yeshua` in Matthew 24:29-31, Mark 13:24-27; and Luke 21:25-28.

Therefore, I believe that it is clear from Scripture that this "tribulation" has lasted/will last for about 2,000 years!

And, to answer an objection before it is given, the "shortening of the time" (Matthew 24:22; Mark 13:20) has to do with the individual persecutions WITHIN that 2,000-year period: Rather than it being a time that is CONSISTENTLY a time of persecution and pressure (on both the Jews and the believing Gentiles) to the point that their survival is in jeopardy, there would be periods of relief within that period - minor times of truce and prosperity - to lessen their affect on God's people. Thus, they were not persistently hounded throughout history but were hounded at certain points in history: the Roman persecutions, the Spanish Inquisition, the Crusades, the Russian pogroms, the Holocaust, the steady, Islamic takeover of the French government. All of these were/are PART of the "Tribulation."

I believe that the "Rapture," as many claim is described in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17, is in close conjunction with the timing of the Second Coming proper when the Messiah arrives in the skies above the Holy Land. I do NOT believe that it is "seven years earlier" as the pre tribulation rapturists would say, but then again, it is not in the MIDDLE of the "seven years" nor is it at the END of the "seven years," because the "seven years" or the final Seven of Dani'el 9:24-27 is NOT the "tribulation!" These Sevens have their six purposes and those purposes do NOT include the "tribulation of the earth." They DO, however, include "to bring in everlasting righteousness," and that is PRECISELY what the New Covenant is designed to do for the Isra'elis (Jeremiah 31:31-34; 33:14-22; Romans 11:26-29) which is in ANSWER to the Davidic Covenant!

Welcome back, Retrobyter!

We have two completely different views about the tribulation. Here's my take on the tribulation, from my End-Time Blog:

http://roberthunt.ta.../end-times-blo/