AlexanderJ Posted November 26, 2012 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 8 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 195 Content Per Day: 0.04 Reputation: 24 Days Won: 0 Joined: 06/10/2012 Status: Offline Birthday: 03/25/1993 Author Share Posted November 26, 2012 (edited) The spiritually dead come back to life when they accept Christ as their Savior How can they accept Christ as their saviour if they are spiritually dead? There must be a phase in which they are not dead but have not accepted Christ as their saviour, yet. Which seems to indicate that you do not really need to accept Christ as your savious to come back to life so that you can accept Him. Ciao - viole The term "spiritually dead" does not mean that the spirit is literally dead (in the physical, human sense). Spirits, of course, are immortal - they cannot die (in the literal sense) for any reason. "Death" (in the physical, human sense) is when an animate being transitions into an inanimate object. What we have in the term "spiritually dead" is the physical being used to describe the spiritual. Therefore, there appears a slight inconsistency in the terms. However, I think that this can be reconciled. When we say that a battery is dead, we don't mean that it is dies in the same way that a human dies - because a battery cannot "die" in the same way that a human or an animal dies - it is inanimate. When we say that a battery is dead, we mean that it cannot work in the way that it is intended to, because the energy necessary for it to do so has either been depleted or because it (the battery) was never there in the first place (if it was never charged). In the same way, we as humans are spiritually dead. Our spirits are alive (in the same way that a battery exists) but cannot perform their intended functions because they are not "charged". When we choose to believe in God, He "charges" or to put it the way He puts it "quickens" our spirits. Edited November 26, 2012 by AlexanderJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allofgrace Posted November 26, 2012 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 0 Topics Per Day: 0 Content Count: 158 Content Per Day: 0.04 Reputation: 26 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/30/2012 Status: Offline Share Posted November 26, 2012 (edited) The spiritually dead come back to life when they accept Christ as their Savior Correct, but we're speaking of the day when the body is reunited with the spirit. AllofGrace, Revelation 20 specifically states that the first resurrection applies to those who did not receive the mark of the beast. Since that is something that occurred in Roman times (since it refers to receiving Caesar as God rather than Jesus), it has no meaning to us. The event has occurred for them. They reigned alongside Christ. Since there are no physical human bodies in heaven, I'm led to believe that this was for the martyrs a raising of their spirits to where Christ is: at the right hand of the Father. Other deceased believers, while they most definitely are present with the Lord, did not have the special status of reigning with him during the thousand years (millennium if you prefer). Technically speaking, resurrection is a status as well as a literal bringing to life of the body. The word anastasis which is the primary word used for resurrection in the New Testament. Those who are resurrected are allowed to stand up in the presence of the King. It is something awarded to them BY the king. You may relate that to the early NT saints but I do not believe that John is relating it to them. In context with what is before and after John is talking about the 7 years tribulation of the last times and these are the saints that did not take the mark of the beast. When do you believe the 7 years of tribulation will take place? Will the anti-Christ sit on the throne and declare himself to be God. The 144,000 of the 12 tribes of Israel and the two witnesses of God during that time which leads into the 1000 years reign. It says of these saints they loved not their lives even unto death and they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and the word of their testimony, these are the ones I see there before the throne and whose bodies will be raised to go into the 1000 years reign on earth. I do not see your connection in context with the book of Revelation's. Edited November 26, 2012 by allofgrace Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlexanderJ Posted November 26, 2012 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 8 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 195 Content Per Day: 0.04 Reputation: 24 Days Won: 0 Joined: 06/10/2012 Status: Offline Birthday: 03/25/1993 Author Share Posted November 26, 2012 (edited) "Spiritual death" is being seperated from the source of positive spiritual life - God. Our spirit, before being animated by the positive energizing influence of God, was animated by the world and the Enemy. However, God has placed in us the ability to choose between good and evil (in other words, the knowledge of good and evil see Genesis 2:16-3:23). I don't know whether he placed this ability in our spirit, or if he placed it in our physical mind or in our soul - but I don't think that this is important. What is important, is that we have been given the key to the door of God's spiritual realm through this knowledge. When we believe in Him, he brings us into His world little by little until: Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ... (Heaven) Ephesians 4:13 If you choose the other way (evil), you will be influenced by the Enemy, who is also spiritual, but who, unlike God, is evil. He will, if a person allows him, to bring him into his world little by little and change the person's world and life into Hell. Edited November 26, 2012 by AlexanderJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bold Believer Posted November 26, 2012 Group: Royal Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 121 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 1,931 Content Per Day: 0.35 Reputation: 126 Days Won: 8 Joined: 01/22/2009 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/13/1955 Share Posted November 26, 2012 We know for certain by reading this passage that the first resurrection if not the very last day because these in v4 were killed in the tribulation and then go and lived another 1000 years in their resurrected bodies during the reign of Christ as it says in v 4 and verse 5 says this is the first surrection. So the nose on your face may be what is obvious and not the first surrection. Rev 20:4-6 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. 5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years. The first resurrection is that of the martyrs of the Neronian persecution. It's a specific resurrection given to them. Notice in all the other instances when Jesus speaks of the resurrection, he speaks in general terms. It only applies to those, notice, the writer refers to their having been beheaded and not taking the Mark of the Beast. They refused to venerate the emperors of Rome as Lord and God. The very term 'Jesus is Lord' was a response to the demand of the Roman government that 'Caesar is Lord.' This may also be a spiritual resurrection, rather than body (that is, the martyrs' bodies may still be awaiting reuniting with their already resurrected spirits) as they are given special status to reign with Christ during the thousand years. The Last Day resurrection is everyone who ever lived. I am content to read what the scripture says and to apply to all saints that are with the Lord and all who will be alive when it happens. Paul inspired by the Holy Spirit called it the first resurrection and that is all I have called it, he included the bodies and those being transformed so I would not describe it otherwise. The saints killed during the tribulation are their in heaven in their spirits and their bodies are resurrected and they go into the 1000 years reign as do other saints where in the NT it tells us that the saints will rule with the Lord and I believe they must be there in order to do that. Actually, Paul never used the term 'first resurrection'. He did use the term resurrection. John used the term first resurrection and only in Revelation 20, and (as he does with the term antichrist) defines what he means. Those who are in the first resurrection according to John are defined thusly: "Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years." 1. They died in a specific manner: beheading. The Romans did this. 2. They didn't worship the beast (the Roman empire) or his image (personified in Roman Emperors) 3. They did not receive his mark on their forehead or on their hands: In direct opposition to Deuteronomy 6, where Believers were told to put the Word of God on their foreheads and in their hands. ONLY these Believers reigned with Christ during the thousand years. Everyone else (Believers of other eras and the godless dead) are NOT resurrected (in any manner) until the end of the thousand years. God chose those Believers to receive that special status. We can't receive it; we are long after that. I can't explain it any better than I have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tinky Posted November 26, 2012 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 200 Topics Per Day: 0.04 Content Count: 1,602 Content Per Day: 0.30 Reputation: 291 Days Won: 8 Joined: 10/24/2009 Status: Offline Birthday: 01/01/1986 Share Posted November 26, 2012 If spiritual death is the separation from the source of positive spiritual life, how can a spiritual dead be in the position to recognize and accept Christ as Saviour, assuming that He comes from a positive spiritual life's source. Either there is a wall between this reality and the spirit or there isn't. If there is, then recognizing Jesus is as plausible as seeing colors when you are blind. If there isn't, then you are not spiritual dead to start with. The Bible teaches that it is God the Father who draws people to Christ (John 6:44).The light given to them by Him is enough for them to make their decision for or against Christ. The whole of salvation comes from God. It's a gift. That way, there can be no glory given to anyone but God. The Bible also says that if God did not prompt the spiritually dead, they themselves would never seek Him Romans 3:11). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bold Believer Posted November 26, 2012 Group: Royal Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 121 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 1,931 Content Per Day: 0.35 Reputation: 126 Days Won: 8 Joined: 01/22/2009 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/13/1955 Share Posted November 26, 2012 "Spiritual death" is being seperated from the source of positive spiritual life - God. Our spirit, before being animated by the positive energizing influence of God, was animated by the world and the Enemy. However, God has placed in us the ability to choose between good and evil (in other words, the knowledge of good and evil see Genesis 2:16-3:23). I don't know whether he placed this ability in our spirit, or if he placed it in our physical mind or in our soul - but I don't think that this is important. What is important, is that we have been given the key to the door of God's spiritual realm through this knowledge. When we believe in Him, he brings us into His world little by little until: Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ... (Heaven) Ephesians 4:13 If you choose the other way (evil), you will be influenced by the Enemy, who is also spiritual, but who, unlike God, is evil. He will, if a person allows him, to bring him into his world little by little and change his world and life into Hell. Ok, just a little final question and then I will leave it at that. If spiritual death is the separation from the source of positive spiritual life, how can a spiritual dead be in the position to recognize and accept Christ as Saviour, assuming that He comes from a positive spiritual life's source. Either there is a wall between this reality and the spirit or there isn't. If there is, then recognizing Jesus is as plausible as seeing colors when you are blind. If there isn't, then you are not spiritually dead to start with. Ciao - viole Spiritual death occurs at the physical death of an unbeliever, Viole. When one who rejects Christ and His sacrifice for their sins, and then dies, that's it. There IS no second chance. Unbelievers are on occasion referred to as 'dead while they yet live' in the NT. In that case, death refers to their unbelief, which is killing them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlexanderJ Posted November 26, 2012 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 8 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 195 Content Per Day: 0.04 Reputation: 24 Days Won: 0 Joined: 06/10/2012 Status: Offline Birthday: 03/25/1993 Author Share Posted November 26, 2012 (edited) "Spiritual death" is being seperated from the source of positive spiritual life - God. Our spirit, before being animated by the positive energizing influence of God, was animated by the world and the Enemy. However, God has placed in us the ability to choose between good and evil (in other words, the knowledge of good and evil see Genesis 2:16-3:23). I don't know whether he placed this ability in our spirit, or if he placed it in our physical mind or in our soul - but I don't think that this is important. What is important, is that we have been given the key to the door of God's spiritual realm through this knowledge. When we believe in Him, he brings us into His world little by little until: Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ... (Heaven) Ephesians 4:13 If you choose the other way (evil), you will be influenced by the Enemy, who is also spiritual, but who, unlike God, is evil. He will, if a person allows him, to bring him into his world little by little and change his world and life into Hell. Ok, just a little final question and then I will leave it at that. If spiritual death is the separation from the source of positive spiritual life, how can a spiritual dead be in the position to recognize and accept Christ as Saviour, assuming that He comes from a positive spiritual life's source. Either there is a wall between this reality and the spirit or there isn't. If there is, then recognizing Jesus is as plausible as seeing colors when you are blind. If there isn't, then you are not spiritual dead to start with. Ciao - viole We would not be able to recognise or choose good had not God placed in us the ability to do so. This ability is called the "Knowledge of Good and Evil". As I said before, I don't know where this ability lies, whether in the soul, body, or spirit. The ability to recognise and choose the thing is not the thing itself. This ability is not Good or Bad; it is neutral, because a person can use the same ability to choose either Good or Bad. Even though you are spiritually dead, you can choose God because he has given you the means (or as I put it before "the key"). Edited November 26, 2012 by AlexanderJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlexanderJ Posted November 26, 2012 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 8 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 195 Content Per Day: 0.04 Reputation: 24 Days Won: 0 Joined: 06/10/2012 Status: Offline Birthday: 03/25/1993 Author Share Posted November 26, 2012 (edited) Being spiritually dead does not mean that you cannot choose right, it simply means that you are separated from God, who is the source of positive spiritual life. This does it mean that an unbeliever cannot do good. It simply means that an unbeliever cannot do good that will earn him the union with God. It is not doing good that unites us with God, it is believing (choosing) Him. Edited November 26, 2012 by AlexanderJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sevenseas Posted November 26, 2012 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 30 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 3,373 Content Per Day: 0.76 Reputation: 683 Days Won: 22 Joined: 02/28/2012 Status: Offline Share Posted November 26, 2012 The spiritually dead come back to life when they accept Christ as their Savior How can they accept Christ as their saviour if they are spiritually dead? There must be a phase in which they are not dead but have not accepted Christ as their saviour, yet. Which seems to indicate that you do not really need to accept Christ as your savious to come back to life so that you can accept Him. Ciao - viole Hey Viole I think Alexanders' explanation was helpful. In the same way, we as humans are spiritually dead. Our spirits are alive (in the same way that a battery exists) but cannot perform their intended functions because they are not "charged". When we choose to believe in God, He "charges" or to put it the way He puts it "quickens" our spirits. The Bible says we are ALIVE in Christ when we accept Him as our Savior. The Bible also says that we must accept Christ, in this, the only life we have Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment,28so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many people; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him. Hebrews 9: 27/28 Resurrection for those outside of belief in Christ will not result in a second chance God says to ALL of us: As God’s fellow workers we urge you not to receive God’s grace in vain. 2For he says, “In the time of my favor I heard you, 5]and in the day of salvation I helped you.” a I tell you, now is the time of God’s favor, now is the day of salvation. II Cor 6:1,2 If you have not received Christ, NOW is the time to accept Him. Yesterday is gone...tomorrow is not here The time is NOW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sevenseas Posted November 26, 2012 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 30 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 3,373 Content Per Day: 0.76 Reputation: 683 Days Won: 22 Joined: 02/28/2012 Status: Offline Share Posted November 26, 2012 You may relate that to the early NT saints but I do not believe that John is relating it to them. In context with what is before and after John is talking about the 7 years tribulation of the last times and these are the saints that did not take the mark of the beast. When do you believe the 7 years of tribulation will take place? Will the anti-Christ sit on the throne and declare himself to be God. The 144,000 of the 12 tribes of Israel and the two witnesses of God during that time which leads into the 1000 years reign. It says of these saints they loved not their lives even unto death and they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and the word of their testimony, these are the ones I see there before the throne and whose bodies will be raised to go into the 1000 years reign on earth. I do not see your connection in context with the book of Revelation's. Well here is the reason I posted regarding spiritual life from death. It does not matter. The time is still NOW and that is the Word the Holy Spirit is drawing my attention to and I believe I should share. The time is NOW. Choose. His compassions fail not, yet we have all gone astray like sheep with no shepherd. Stop trampling the pasture and have a drink from the Spirit of truth...God's spirit. To be clear and not to offend: this is for everyone including me. I just happened to use the quote above in a general sense I am not saying that the topic is not useful or wrong. I am saying that it does not matter compared to what does matter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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