OldShep Posted December 1, 2012 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 20 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 934 Content Per Day: 0.20 Reputation: 137 Days Won: 6 Joined: 07/20/2011 Status: Offline Birthday: 02/12/1950 Share Posted December 1, 2012 For me I have Faith that once this body has passed, I will be with the Lord!. I choose to believe the word of God found in the Bible. The OP. is..from the book: The Jerusalem Church: Learn Not the Way of the Heathen By Robert Cook And there is no reason to believe that when we die we won't be in the presents of the Lord. I am simply saying that we will not be going straight to heaven the moment we die but will go to heaven when Jesus come to raise us from the grave. Read the Parable of Lazorus and the rich man. Why say? . I am simply saying that we will not be going straight to heaven the moment we die I choose to believe that Time means nothing to the person who has passed on. Time is for living man, and like everything else, man can Fight over it... I have read the Parables of Lazarus and the rich man...and have read about a man who went to the 3rd Heaven...and I have read that to be in this body is to be away from the Lord. I have also read that every day we spend in this body it is wasting away! I have read such words as "I am torn between the two: I desire to depart and be with Christ, " .......Yes, I have read and I have Faith, that as it turns out was a gift, because I did nothing to receive that gift through my actions. Will the Faith of what I believe cause one to lose their Salvation in Christ, if it takes 100 thousand years to take place, or if it happens in the moment of being set free from the early tent we live in. Yes, why say anything beyond your belief in the Lord Jesus Christ, belief that we will be with Him... Dennis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bible_Gazer Posted December 2, 2012 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 8 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 450 Content Per Day: 0.11 Reputation: 152 Days Won: 1 Joined: 09/05/2012 Status: Offline Share Posted December 2, 2012 I think Stephen went to heaven and has a new body. Acts 7:55 But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up steadfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God, 56 And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God. 59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit. 2Cor.5:1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven: 3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Massorite Posted December 2, 2012 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 38 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,973 Content Per Day: 0.32 Reputation: 36 Days Won: 2 Joined: 04/26/2007 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/13/1953 Author Share Posted December 2, 2012 Besides, if everybody goes to heaven as soon as they die and all of the graves are empty, Who will Jesus raise from the grave if the graves are empty? He is raising their bodies from the grave, not their spirits. So their graves are not empty as their bodies remain in the ground. Where did you get the idea that the graves are empty if everyone goes to heaven when they die? You are operating from the fallacy that earlier doctrines mean more accurate. There is a erroneous notion among some that the closer you get to the ancient apostles and to the early church, the closer you get to the original "correct" theology or doctrinal views that is simply not true. Heresies abounded in the early church and this is recorded among the early church historians. You really cannot turn to the early church fathers for correct doctrine, as they held to many heresies and persecuted the Jews as well. Jesus, in dealing with the Saducees on the issue of the after life quotes from Exodus 3 where God told Moses "I am the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob." He did not say, "I WAS the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, meaning that God is the God of the living. Abraham, Isaac and Jacob were still alive according to Jesus, proving that their spirits were not in the grave but were alive and animate. Moses and Elijah appeared with Jesus and talked with Jesus on the Mount of Tranfiguration, meaning that they were still alive and their spirits were not in their graves. Show me some scripture to back that idea up. Show me some scripture that says that the body goes to heaven and the spirit stays in the grave. Because scripture tells us that the body turns back to the dust where it came from and the spirit goes back to God where it came from. Which is the opposite of what you are saying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Massorite Posted December 2, 2012 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 38 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,973 Content Per Day: 0.32 Reputation: 36 Days Won: 2 Joined: 04/26/2007 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/13/1953 Author Share Posted December 2, 2012 Why did Paul make these statements in this passage? What does he mean when in v23 he says he has a desire to depart and be with Christ? Is Christ in the grave or in heaven? Phil 1:21-23 For to me, to live is Christ, and to die is gain. 22 But if I live on in the flesh, this will mean fruit from my labor; yet what I shall choose I cannot tell. 23 For I am hard-pressed between the two, having a desire to depart and be with Christ, which is far better. What does Paul mean by this passage when he concludes that to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord? Again, is Christ in the grave or in heaven. In both of these passages I've shown that Paul desires to go be with Christ, so the point is, where is Jesus now? 2 Cor 5:6-8 So we are always confident, knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord. 7 For we walk by faith, not by sight. 8 We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord. Not to mention, Jesus has promised that He will never leave us nor forsake us, if the believer does not directly to heaven, do you suppose that Jesus is with them in the grave? Now I ask you, show some passages that says the believer does not go to be with the Lord when they die. And to say that the early NT believers did not believe that the saved went directly to be with the Lord is proven incorrect because the scripture teaches contrary to that idea. The verses I have shown tells us the Holy Spirit had Paul to tell all believers that to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. That is early enough for me. And in 1 Thess 4:13-18 But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words. The principle is always the same, the saints will be with the Lord. All through the New Testament the words "Endure to the end" is spoken and when we have endured to the end and died or Christ comes we will have accomplished that which is our goal. In the Parable of Lazarus and the rich man there is conversation that takes place but none of it is spoken by Lazorus only the rich man and Abraham. Why? Lazarus had died didn't he? And if he was dead and in heaven then why wasn't he awake and taking part in the conversation? Because he was sleeping in Christ in death. In John 11:11 Jesus says that Lazarus was sleeping. But in John 11:14 Jesus says that Lazarus is dead. Why? Because Lazarus was dead in Christ and when we die in Christ we are simply in a state of sleep until Jesus raises us from the grave which is what Jesus did with Lazarus and we all know that Lazarus was raised with his body intack and needing nourishment because Jesus commands that Lazarus be given food. But when we are raised from the grave we will be raised in the glorified body just as Jesus was which will get us into heaven because no flesh shall inter into heaven. "What does Paul mean by this passage when he concludes that to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord?" You have made a mistake in this question by leaveing out the rest of the verse. You only quoted half of the verse so I will show the whole verse. 2 Cor. 5:8 "We are confident, well pleased RATHER TO BE absent from the body and to be present with the Lord". In this verse there is no conclusion here at all. It is a statement of fact which is saying that we as believers are confident and well pleased that we would rather be absent from our bodies and to be present with the Lord. When we quote that verse and leave out the words "rather to be" it changes the verse into a false doctrine which is to say that when we die we will be in heaven in the presents of the Lord and this verse says nothing at all about going to heaven at the moment of death. We would all rather be in the presence of the Lord verses being in the flesh. But to say that this verse is telling us that we go to heaven as soon as we die is simply wrong. There is no scrptural proof that Paradise was emptied out and there is no scripture proof that we go to heaven as soon as we die. I believe that when we die it will be just like when we lay down to go to sleep ever night. I will die and go to sleep in the presence of the Lord and the next time I open my eyes it will be as if no time has past and an angel/reaper will be helping me out of the grave just as the word of God say I will be helped by a reaper/angel out of the grave. Personally I am aways in the presence of the Lord because I can feel His presence all around me at all times. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Massorite Posted December 2, 2012 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 38 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,973 Content Per Day: 0.32 Reputation: 36 Days Won: 2 Joined: 04/26/2007 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/13/1953 Author Share Posted December 2, 2012 For me I have Faith that once this body has passed, I will be with the Lord!. I choose to believe the word of God found in the Bible. The OP. is..from the book: The Jerusalem Church: Learn Not the Way of the Heathen By Robert Cook And there is no reason to believe that when we die we won't be in the presents of the Lord. I am simply saying that we will not be going straight to heaven the moment we die but will go to heaven when Jesus come to raise us from the grave. Read the Parable of Lazorus and the rich man. Why say? . I am simply saying that we will not be going straight to heaven the moment we die I choose to believe that Time means nothing to the person who has passed on. Time is for living man, and like everything else, man can Fight over it... I have read the Parables of Lazarus and the rich man...and have read about a man who went to the 3rd Heaven...and I have read that to be in this body is to be away from the Lord. I have also read that every day we spend in this body it is wasting away! I have read such words as "I am torn between the two: I desire to depart and be with Christ, " .......Yes, I have read and I have Faith, that as it turns out was a gift, because I did nothing to receive that gift through my actions. Will the Faith of what I believe cause one to lose their Salvation in Christ, if it takes 100 thousand years to take place, or if it happens in the moment of being set free from the early tent we live in. Yes, why say anything beyond your belief in the Lord Jesus Christ, belief that we will be with Him... Dennis No insult intended here but maybe you should check your faith because I am in the Lord and the Lord is in me. My flesh keeps me from being profected in Jesus but I am never away from the Lord For me I have Faith that once this body has passed, I will be with the Lord!. I choose to believe the word of God found in the Bible. The OP. is..from the book: The Jerusalem Church: Learn Not the Way of the Heathen By Robert Cook And there is no reason to believe that when we die we won't be in the presents of the Lord. I am simply saying that we will not be going straight to heaven the moment we die but will go to heaven when Jesus come to raise us from the grave. Read the Parable of Lazorus and the rich man. Why say? . I am simply saying that we will not be going straight to heaven the moment we die I choose to believe that Time means nothing to the person who has passed on. Time is for living man, and like everything else, man can Fight over it... I have read the Parables of Lazarus and the rich man...and have read about a man who went to the 3rd Heaven...and I have read that to be in this body is to be away from the Lord. I have also read that every day we spend in this body it is wasting away! I have read such words as "I am torn between the two: I desire to depart and be with Christ, " .......Yes, I have read and I have Faith, that as it turns out was a gift, because I did nothing to receive that gift through my actions. Will the Faith of what I believe cause one to lose their Salvation in Christ, if it takes 100 thousand years to take place, or if it happens in the moment of being set free from the early tent we live in. Yes, why say anything beyond your belief in the Lord Jesus Christ, belief that we will be with Him... Dennis Personnally I am in Jesus and He is in me and I am never away from the Lord. My flesh keeps me from being perfected in the Lord but that will happen when I am raised from the grave or at the moment of death. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gdemoss Posted December 2, 2012 Group: Royal Member Followers: 8 Topic Count: 59 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 4,402 Content Per Day: 0.99 Reputation: 2,154 Days Won: 28 Joined: 02/10/2012 Status: Offline Birthday: 04/26/1971 Share Posted December 2, 2012 There is scriptural support that 'While it is called To day' believers who die are with Christ in Paradise. The thief on the cross is the church who is told To day you will be with me in Paradise. While it is called To day harden not your hearts as in the provocation but receive the Spirit of God by faith and put on Christ and when you die, you will be dead in Christ, and when you live you will be alive in Christ. To live is Christ and to die is gain for the man who walks as he walked. Paul had been to Paradise and had seen things that were not lawful to speak about and so he did not. There is a sufficient amount of misleading that goes with the term 'caught up' that is used because of the word 'up' that directs ones carnal intellect to understand Paradise to be spoken of as that of heaven above but there is nothing truly indicating that a 'heaven' must be above. Even David, who was a prophet, spoke of making his bed in Hell and God being their as well. I do not claim to dogmatically know the truth of the matter at hand, but do declare that I see perfect reasoning to believe what Dave has presented here to be a very real possibility that we should all take heed unto but comfort one another with the saying that if we obey righteousness we shall reap everlasting life through Jesus Christ our Lord even though there may be some times where we fail in our flesh. God be thanked! And much love to my brothers and sisters in Christ who love our Lord in sincerity. Wherever we go when we die In Christ, I shall be with you there lest the Lord return and I simply meet you in the air. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldShep Posted December 2, 2012 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 20 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 934 Content Per Day: 0.20 Reputation: 137 Days Won: 6 Joined: 07/20/2011 Status: Offline Birthday: 02/12/1950 Share Posted December 2, 2012 "No insult intended here but maybe you should check your faith because I am in the Lord and the Lord is in me." No insult intended, but........indicates the opposite of the written or spoken word, "check your faith" ...... ...I have, it is a gift from God, that Faith tells me that as soon as this body passes on, my living spirit will be with the Lord, I will be with the Lord, the body remains behind, for God, is not the God of the Dead but of the Living, I do not die I merely pass on to be with the Lord Jesus. Praise the Lord Jesus is coming back.. ... Here is a statement to think about; Born Twice die once, born once Die Twice. Dennis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim7 Posted December 3, 2012 Group: Members Followers: 0 Topic Count: 0 Topics Per Day: 0 Content Count: 10 Content Per Day: 0.00 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 04/27/2011 Status: Offline Share Posted December 3, 2012 "No insult intended here but maybe you should check your faith because I am in the Lord and the Lord is in me." No insult intended, but........indicates the opposite of the written or spoken word, "check your faith" ...... ...I have, it is a gift from God, that Faith tells me that as soon as this body passes on, my living spirit will be with the Lord, I will be with the Lord, the body remains behind, for God, is not the God of the Dead but of the Living, I do not die I merely pass on to be with the Lord Jesus. Praise the Lord Jesus is coming back.. ... Here is a statement to think about; Born Twice die once, born once Die Twice. Dennis I agree with this wholeheartedly Thanks OldShep, I've really been praying over how to respond back to this thread after presenting biblical evidence, I just washed my hands of it after praying over why someone believes we dont go to heaven after dying. Thats like saying Jesus bled and suffered for noting and our faith is lost. Praise God I know that Jesus is on the right hand of God making intercession for me till I come home to meet Him in person. I am looking forward to that beautiful day and glorious day we enter into heaven and inherit the rest of our eternal rewards. Blessings Tim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Massorite Posted December 3, 2012 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 38 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,973 Content Per Day: 0.32 Reputation: 36 Days Won: 2 Joined: 04/26/2007 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/13/1953 Author Share Posted December 3, 2012 I think Stephen went to heaven and has a new body. Acts 7:55 But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up steadfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God, 56 And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God. 59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit. 2Cor.5:1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven: 3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked. Show me some scripture that say "Steven went to heaven" We must remember that Jesus is our example and all that happened to him will happen to us which means that we will first decend into the lower reaches of the earth before we are raised from the grave. What did Jesus say to the thief on the cross? He said "this day you shall be with me in paradise" now we all know that Jesus first decended and since the thief went with Christ that very death which is the day of His death, the thief went with Christ into Paradise. Desiring "to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven: IS A LONG WAYS FROM BEING CLOTHED WITH OUR HEAVENLY CLOTHING. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Massorite Posted December 3, 2012 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 38 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,973 Content Per Day: 0.32 Reputation: 36 Days Won: 2 Joined: 04/26/2007 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/13/1953 Author Share Posted December 3, 2012 Besides, if everybody goes to heaven as soon as they die and all of the graves are empty, Who will Jesus raise from the grave if the graves are empty? He is raising their bodies from the grave, not their spirits. So their graves are not empty as their bodies remain in the ground. Where did you get the idea that the graves are empty if everyone goes to heaven when they die? Jesus, in dealing with the Saducees on the issue of the after life quotes from Exodus 3 where God told Moses "I am the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob." He did not say, "I WAS the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, meaning that God is the God of the living. Abraham, Isaac and Jacob were still alive according to Jesus, proving that their spirits were not in the grave but were alive and animate. Moses and Elijah appeared with Jesus and talked with Jesus on the Mount of Tranfiguration, meaning that they were still alive and their spirits were not in their graves. Show me some scripture to back that idea up. Show me some scripture that says that the body goes to heaven and the spirit stays in the grave. Because scripture tells us that the body turns back to the dust where it came from and the spirit goes back to God where it came from. Which is the opposite of what you are saying. Body stays in grave as stated spirit goes to heaven and they are reunited with a immortal incorruptible body at the harpazo 1 Thessalonians 4 13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words. 1 Corinthians 15 42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: 51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. The body never gets reunited with the soul because no flesh shall inter into heaven. We will be like Jesus was with a glorified body that could eat fish and walk through walls. His body had enough substance to touch but it wasn't flesh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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