Everlasting Covenant

[PGA]

With all the comparison, PGA, I am not sure if you see Christ as a continuance with the Jews or if the Jews were left out for rejecting Him and now there is only the Gentiles?

Hi OneLight,

I see the faithful remnant as receiving the promises of God which have been detailed in the OT, for they are part of the true Israel of God along with the Gentiles who were grafted into the true vine. The true Jew is one who is circumcised by the heart, not by the flesh.

Revelation 2:9

New International Version (NIV)

⁹ I know your afflictions and your poverty—yet you are rich! I know about the slander of those who say they are Jews and are not, but are a synagogue of Satan.

Revelation 3:9

New International Version (NIV)

⁹ I will make those who are of the synagogue of Satan, who claim to be Jews though they are not, but are liars—I will make them come and fall down at your feet and acknowledge that I have loved you.

Galatians 5:1-6

New International Version (NIV)

Freedom in Christ

5 It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery.

² Mark my words! I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all. ³ Again I declare to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole law. ⁴ You who are trying to be justified by the law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace. ⁵ For through the Spirit we eagerly await by faith the righteousness for which we hope. ⁶ For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love.

These believers who I believe were Jews, or at least some of them were, were in danger of turning/turning back to Judaism. Paul reminds them who they are in Christ, just as in chapter 4 he reminded them that they are not children of the old covenant which represented Hagar as the shadow in the OT, but that they are children of the promise, the New Covenant which has not the earthly city but the heavenly one.

Galatians 4:21-31

New International Version (NIV)

Hagar and Sarah

²¹ Tell me, you who want to be under the law, are you not aware of what the law says? ²² For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the slave woman and the other by the free woman. ²³ His son by the slave woman was born according to the flesh, but his son by the free woman was born as the result of a divine promise.

²⁴ These things are being taken figuratively: The women represent two covenants. One covenant is from Mount Sinai and bears children who are to be slaves: This is Hagar. ²⁵ Now Hagar stands for Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present city of Jerusalem, because she is in slavery with her children. ²⁶ But the Jerusalem that is above is free, and she is our mother. ²⁷ For it is written:

“Be glad, barren woman,

you who never bore a child;

shout for joy and cry aloud,

you who were never in labor;

because more are the children of the desolate woman

than of her who has a husband.”^[a]

²⁸ Now you, brothers and sisters, like Isaac, are children of promise. ²⁹ At that time the son born according to the flesh persecuted the son born by the power of the Spirit. It is the same now. ³⁰ But what does Scripture say? “Get rid of the slave woman and her son, for the slave woman’s son will never share in the inheritance with the free woman’s son.”^{[b] 31} Therefore, brothers and sisters, we are not children of the slave woman, but of the free woman.

Footnotes:

1. Galatians 4:27 Isaiah 54:1
   
2. Galatians 4:30 Gen. 21:10
   

When Paul says 'It is the same now' I believe he is referring to the persecution being suffered by their own countrymen, the Jews of the flesh, who want them to return to Judaism.

1 Thessalonians 2:14-16

New International Version (NIV)

¹⁴ For you, brothers and sisters, became imitators of God’s churches in Judea, which are in Christ Jesus: You suffered from your own people the same things those churches suffered from the Jews ¹⁵ who killed the Lord Jesus and the prophets and also drove us out. They displease God and are hostile to everyone¹⁶ in their effort to keep us from speaking to the Gentiles so that they may be saved. In this way they always heap up their sins to the limit. The wrath of God has come upon them at last.^[a]

Footnotes:

1. 1 Thessalonians 2:16 Or them fully
   

God's wrath was coming on this disobedient people, as Paul notes along with others, who were guilt of crucifying the Lord Jesus Christ and turning away from God.

They were heaping up their sin to the limit, words similar to what the Lord said shortly before He was crucified to this stiff-necked people.

Matthew 23:29-38

New International Version (NIV)

²⁹ “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You build tombs for the prophets and decorate the graves of the righteous. ³⁰ And you say, ‘If we had lived in the days of our ancestors, we would not have taken part with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.’ ³¹ So you testify against yourselves that you are the descendants of those who murdered the prophets. ³² Go ahead, then, and complete what your ancestors started!

³³ “You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell? ³⁴ Therefore I am sending you prophets and sages and teachers. Some of them you will kill and crucify; others you will flog in your synagogues and pursue from town to town. ³⁵ And so upon you will come all the righteous blood that has been shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berekiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. ³⁶ Truly I tell you, all this will come on this generation.

³⁷ “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing. ³⁸ Look, your house is left to you desolate.

He is the King James translation of Matthew 23:32

Matthew 23:32

King James Version (KJV)

³² Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.

All was fulfilled in A.D. 70. Their house, Jerusalem, where God resided, the temple in which He dwelt and left because they rejected His Son, was left to them desolate.

Jesus had much in fact to say about fleshly Israel throughout the gospels - the list is long. He even called them children of the devil, as pointed out in the two passages from Revelation.

ohn 8:31-47

New International Version (NIV)

Dispute Over Whose Children Jesus’ Opponents Are

³¹ To the Jews who had believed him, Jesus said, “If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples. ³² Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.”

³³ They answered him, “We are Abraham’s descendants and have never been slaves of anyone. How can you say that we shall be set free?”

³⁴ Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, everyone who sins is a slave to sin. ³⁵ Now a slave has no permanent place in the family, but a son belongs to it forever. ³⁶ So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed. ³⁷ I know that you are Abraham’s descendants. Yet you are looking for a way to kill me, because you have no room for my word. ³⁸ I am telling you what I have seen in the Father’s presence, and you are doing what you have heard from your father.^[a]”

³⁹ “Abraham is our father,” they answered.

“If you were Abraham’s children,” said Jesus, “then you would^[b] do what Abraham did. ⁴⁰ As it is, you are looking for a way to kill me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God. Abraham did not do such things. ⁴¹ You are doing the works of your own father.”

“We are not illegitimate children,” they protested. “The only Father we have is God himself.”

⁴² Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I have come here from God. I have not come on my own; God sent me. ⁴³ Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say. ⁴⁴ You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies. ⁴⁵ Yet because I tell the truth, you do not believe me! ⁴⁶ Can any of you prove me guilty of sin? If I am telling the truth, why don’t you believe me? ⁴⁷ Whoever belongs to God hears what God says. The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God.”

Footnotes:

1. John 8:38 Or presence. Therefore do what you have heard from the Father.
   
2. John 8:39 Some early manuscripts “If you are Abraham’s children,” said Jesus, “then
   

If they were the true Israel of God they would have believed in Jesus, but He calls them children of the devil because of their unbelief. Those who hold to His teaching are truly His disciples and the truth will set them free, free from the bondage of slavery, of trying to meet the law, outside of Christ, which is a heavy burden.

OneLight, do you see how all these Scriptures are related?

Peter

[OneLight]

Yes, Peter, I do see what it says, but my conclusion is not one of the replacement theory, but of hope for my brother Jews. God is still working in their hearts and minds and they still are His people. He will see them through to the very end. He has already brought them back to their promise land.

We who accept Christ are all brothers and sisters in Him. One cannot forget what His promise is to teh true Jewish people, for He does not lie.

[PGA]

Yes, Peter, I do see what it says, but my conclusion is not one of the replacement theory, but of hope for my brother Jews. God is still working in their hearts and minds and they still are His people. He will see them through to the very end. He has already brought them back to their promise land.

We who accept Christ are all brothers and sisters in Him. One cannot forget what His promise is to teh true Jewish people, for He does not lie.

Hi OneLight,

No He does not. Do you not think that the promise is fulfilled in Christ? All God's promises are yes in Christ Jesus (2 Cor. 1:20). That is for both Jew and Gentile. Are not Gentiles fellow citizens with God's people? Is a Jew a Jew if he is only one by outward appearances and by the circumcision of the flesh?

Ephesians 2:11-22

New International Version 1984 (NIV1984)

One in Christ

¹¹ Therefore, remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and called “uncircumcised” by those who call themselves “the circumcision” (that done in the body by the hands of men)— ¹² remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world. ¹³ But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.

¹⁴ For he himself is our peace, who has made the two one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, ¹⁵ by abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace,¹⁶ and in this one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility. ¹⁷ He came and preached peace to you who were far away and peace to those who were near. ¹⁸ For through him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit.

¹⁹ Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and aliens, but fellow citizens with God’s people and members of God’s household, ²⁰ built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone. ²¹ In him the whole building is joined together and rises to become a holy temple in the Lord. ²² And in him you too are being built together to become a dwelling in which God lives by his Spirit.

I ask you again, who are God's people? Who is the Israel of God? Do you know? All who are the true Israel will be saved.

Romans 9:1-8

New International Version 1984 (NIV1984)

God’s Sovereign Choice

9 I speak the truth in Christ—I am not lying, my conscience confirms it in the Holy Spirit— ² I have great sorrow and unceasing anguish in my heart. ³ For I could wish that I myself were cursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my brothers, those of my own race, ⁴ the people of Israel. Theirs is the adoption as sons; theirs the divine glory, the covenants, the receiving of the law, the temple worship and the promises. ⁵ Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of Christ, who is God over all, forever praised!^[a] Amen.

⁶ It is not as though God’s word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. ⁷ Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham’s children. On the contrary, “It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned.”^{[b] 8} In other words, it is not the natural children who are God’s children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham’s offspring.

Footnotes:

1. Romans 9:5 Or Christ, who is over all. God be forever praised! Or Christ. God who is over all be forever praised!
   
2. Romans 9:7 Gen. 21:12
   

Romans 9:22-33

New International Version 1984 (NIV1984)

²² What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? ²³ What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory— ²⁴ even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles? ²⁵ As he says in Hosea:

“I will call them ‘my people’ who are not my people;

and I will call her ‘my loved one’ who is not my loved one,”^[a]

²⁶ and,

“It will happen that in the very place where it was said to them,

‘You are not my people,’

they will be called ‘sons of the living God.’”^[b]

²⁷ Isaiah cries out concerning Israel:

“Though the number of the Israelites be like the sand by the sea,

only the remnant will be saved.

²⁸ For the Lord will carry out

his sentence on earth with speed and finality.”^[c]

²⁹ It is just as Isaiah said previously:

“Unless the Lord Almighty

had left us descendants,

we would have become like Sodom,

we would have been like Gomorrah.”^[d]

Israel’s Unbelief

³⁰ What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; ³¹ but Israel, who pursued a law of righteousness, has not attained it. ³² Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the “stumbling stone.” ³³ As it is written:

“See, I lay in Zion a stone that causes men to stumble

and a rock that makes them fall,

and the one who trusts in him will never be put to shame.”^[e]

Footnotes:

1. Romans 9:25 Hosea 2:23
   
2. Romans 9:26 Hosea 1:10
   
3. Romans 9:28 Isaiah 10:22,23
   
4. Romans 9:29 Isaiah 1:9
   
5. Romans 9:33 Isaiah 8:14; 28:16
   

See, the true Israel of God is made up of Jews and Gentiles, but the Israel of the Old Covenant who pursued their righteousness by works never entered into the rest. Over and over in the NT we see God coming in judgment of this stiff-necked people as is mentioned above. Who are the people of God's wrath in Romans 9?

God bought judgment on them swiftly in A.D. 70 when He destroyed the old covenant.

The true Promised Land is the heavenly land. The true Jew is the one who is circumcised in the heart, not the flesh. I hope you notice this when you read your NT Scriptures. Also pay attention to whom is being addressed, especially when God is expressing His wrath. Over and over we see His wrath is against this OT people.

It amazes me that even after I point out the differences between Acts 1 and Revelation 1:7 I get no Scriptural rebuke or correction but just opinions and feelings.

The question again to you is who is being addressed in Acts 1? Is it all Israel, or the whole world, or is it these apostles of Christ? Who are going to see Him return in the same manner in which He left? For those who interpret all Scripture literally, they should pay attention to what is being said. We need to understand what God is saying to us, otherwise we do not correctly interpret what He is saying. If God is capable of communicating with His creation do you think He is going to contradict Himself or say something He doesn't mean or making language say something that it does not say, or say something He does not mean? When the Scripture says, 'men of Galilee' do you think it really means someone else, without supplying just cause for such an interpretation?

Peter

[PGA]

Hi OneLight,

When you consider Revelation 1:7, since it is a quote from the OT it is good to go back to the original source and find out the context. It is also a good habit to consider the rest of the passage in which we find the quote.

Here we have the Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants what must soon take place. He makes it known by sending His angel/messenger to His servant John who again testifies to what he saw because the time is near. So John writes to the seven churches scattered over the province of Asia, praising God and praising Jesus who has made ''us to be a kingdom and priesthood." The tense is the present tense. It is happening as he writes. To these people he quotes Zechariah 12:10 of which I will supply more of the context so that you can see the jist of the quote.

Zechariah 12

New International Version 1984 (NIV1984)

Jerusalem’s Enemies to Be Destroyed

An Oracle

12 This is the word of the Lord concerning Israel. The Lord, who stretches out the heavens, who lays the foundation of the earth, and who forms the spirit of man within him, declares: ² “I am going to make Jerusalem a cup that sends all the surrounding peoples reeling. Judah will be besieged as well as Jerusalem. ³ On that day, when all the nations of the earth are gathered against her, I will make Jerusalem an immovable rock for all the nations. All who try to move it will injure themselves. ⁴ On that day I will strike every horse with panic and its rider with madness,” declares the Lord. “I will keep a watchful eye over the house of Judah, but I will blind all the horses of the nations. ⁵ Then the leaders of Judah will say in their hearts, ‘The people of Jerusalem are strong, because the Lord Almighty is their God.’

⁶ “On that day I will make the leaders of Judah like a firepot in a woodpile, like a flaming torch among sheaves. They will consume right and left all the surrounding peoples, but Jerusalem will remain intact in her place.

⁷ “The Lord will save the dwellings of Judah first, so that the honor of the house of David and of Jerusalem’s inhabitants may not be greater than that of Judah. ⁸ On that day the Lord will shield those who live in Jerusalem, so that the feeblest among them will be like David, and the house of David will be like God, like the Angel of the Lord going before them. ⁹ On that day I will set out to destroy all the nations that attack Jerusalem.

Mourning for the One They Pierced

¹⁰ “And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit^[a] of grace and supplication. They will look on^[b] me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son. ¹¹ On that day the weeping in Jerusalem will be great, like the weeping of Hadad Rimmon in the plain of Megiddo. ¹² The land will mourn, each clan by itself, with their wives by themselves: the clan of the house of David and their wives, the clan of the house of Nathan and their wives, ¹³the clan of the house of Levi and their wives, the clan of Shimei and their wives, ¹⁴ and all the rest of the clans and their wives.

Footnotes:

1. Zechariah 12:10 Or the Spirit
   
2. Zechariah 12:10 Or to
   

It is clear that those who pierced Him are from the tribes of Israel, and Jerusalem does indeed mourn and weep at her destruction in A.D. 70.

Matthew 24:30-31

New International Version 1984 (NIV1984)

³⁰ “At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory. ³¹ And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

Here is how the KJV translates the same verse.

Matthew 24:30-31

King James Version (KJV)

³⁰ And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

³¹ And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

This scene is the same as is recorded in Daniel 7:13-14 and Revelation 5. The sign of the Son of Man coming in the clouds of heaven with great power is a heavenly scene when Jesus received that power and glory in His kingdom and the sign was when the Jews who crucified Him realized this.

Matthew 26:63-64

New International Version 1984 (NIV1984)

⁶³ But Jesus remained silent.

The high priest said to him, “I charge you under oath by the living God: Tell us if you are the Christ,^[a] the Son of God.”

⁶⁴ “Yes, it is as you say,” Jesus replied. “But I say to all of you: In the future you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven.”

Footnotes:

1. Matthew 26:63 Or Messiah; also in verse 68
   

The sign confirmed that He was who He said He was and where He said He would be when He came in judgment of this stiff-necked people who rejected Him in A.D. 70. That generation did not pass away until they saw all things prophesied by Jesus in Matthew 23 & 24.

The high priest and the Sanhedrin were told that they would see this coming of the Son of Man. They would see Him, not us today. The word see can mean a physical sighting or it can also mean to understand something. When you say, 'I see what you mean' you are affirming that you understand what I'm saying. I believe this is the case in Matthew 26. With the destruction of the temple and city it confirmed all that He had told them.

Peter

[OneLight]

Yes, Peter, I do see what it says, but my conclusion is not one of the replacement theory, but of hope for my brother Jews. God is still working in their hearts and minds and they still are His people. He will see them through to the very end. He has already brought them back to their promise land.

We who accept Christ are all brothers and sisters in Him. One cannot forget what His promise is to teh true Jewish people, for He does not lie.

Hi OneLight,

I ask you again, who are God's people? Who is the Israel of God? Do you know? All who are the true Israel will be saved.

The Israel of God are the lineage of Abraham. We are grafted into the olive tree, not the true olive tree.

1. Romans 11:17:18
   And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree, do not boast against the branches. But if you do boast, remember that you do not support the root, but the root supports you.
   
2. Romans 11:19
   You will say then, “Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.”
   
3. Romans 11:23
   And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.
   
4. Romans 11:24
   For if you were cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, who are natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?
   

[angels4u]

You are all right. But what I don't understand is this: God made an everlasting covenant with Abraham and his descendants, viz. the Jews, promising that He shall be their God forever (Gen. 17:7). Yet according to Paul's epistle to the Hebrews, God is no longer the God of the Jews but that of the Christians. A Jew would say the Christian belief is false and vice versa. Hence He can't be the God of both types of believers as a Jew is not Christian and a Christian not a Jew. So whether Paul refers to the covenant with Abraham or Moses, His relation to mankind changed (from the Christian viewpoint).

And before Jesus His devotees assumed that He is their God and will be with them forever but with Christ that was altered. How sure can we be that this won't happen again or already has happened?

Which passage in Hebrews are you referring to Hippias?

I would say that God is still the God of the Jews. God has not changed his mind on the matter - God chose Israel as His people. Christians are grafted into the promise made to Abraham. Many Jews have rejected God's Messiah - Jesus Christ. God does not break his promises. Would you agree?

See this site for more: http://www.hebrew4ch...ael/israel.html

This graph gives us a good picture of where Jews and Gentiles relate to the Church. Grafted-in Gentiles and Remnant Jews are saved by Jesus Christ. Ethnic Jews are ethnic Israel and Gentiles are the rest of those who are not saved.

Picture of grafting...

God bless,

GE

Thank you God for allowing us to be crafted in Your plan for Salvation for all mankind who believes in Your Son!

[PGA]

Yes, Peter, I do see what it says, but my conclusion is not one of the replacement theory, but of hope for my brother Jews. God is still working in their hearts and minds and they still are His people. He will see them through to the very end. He has already brought them back to their promise land.

We who accept Christ are all brothers and sisters in Him. One cannot forget what His promise is to teh true Jewish people, for He does not lie.

Yes, Peter, I do see what it says, but my conclusion is not one of the replacement theory, but of hope for my brother Jews. God is still working in their hearts and minds and they still are His people. He will see them through to the very end. He has already brought them back to their promise land.

We who accept Christ are all brothers and sisters in Him. One cannot forget what His promise is to teh true Jewish people, for He does not lie.

Hi OneLight,

I ask you again, who are God's people? Who is the Israel of God? Do you know? All who are the true Israel will be saved.

The Israel of God are the lineage of Abraham. We are grafted into the olive tree, not the true olive tree.

1. Romans 11:17:18
   And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree, do not boast against the branches. But if you do boast, remember that you do not support the root, but the root supports you.
   
2. Romans 11:19
   You will say then, “Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.”
   
3. Romans 11:23
   And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.
   
4. Romans 11:24
   For if you were cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, who are natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?
   

Hi OneLight,

God uses many horticultural types and shadows in His word. The Israel of old had to go through a transformation in order for them to enter the kingdom of heaven/God. These people were disobedient to the covenant they made with God. This can be demonstrated throughout both the OT and NT, but since you make reference to the Branch let's follow it through along with other references used, in addressing this agricultural society, such as grapes on a vine.

Jesus said He was the true Vine and His Father the Gardner. He cuts down every branch in Him that does not bear fruit. OT Israel was guilty of not bearing fruit. God actually calls Israel a vine.

Hosea 10:1-4

New International Version 1984 (NIV1984)

10 Israel was a spreading vine;

he brought forth fruit for himself.

As his fruit increased,

he built more altars;

as his land prospered,

he adorned his sacred stones.

² Their heart is deceitful,

and now they must bear their guilt.

The Lord will demolish their altars

and destroy their sacred stones.

³ Then they will say, “We have no king

because we did not revere the Lord.

But even if we had a king,

what could he do for us?”

⁴ They make many promises,

take false oaths

and make agreements;

therefore lawsuits spring up

like poisonous weeds in a plowed field.

As a matter of fact, God called Israel to be obedient to His covenant (OT) and one of the curses, if they failed to live up to the covenant was being taken from the land. We see this happen in the OT and we see it happen in the NT when God brought judgement on Israel and on the 'house of the Lord' which Jesus said they had turned into a den of thieves. In Deuteronomy we read:

Deuteronomy 28:15-20

New International Version 1984 (NIV1984)

Curses for Disobedience

¹⁵ However, if you do not obey the Lord your God and do not carefully follow all his commands and decrees I am giving you today, all these curses will come upon you and overtake you:

¹⁶ You will be cursed in the city and cursed in the country.

¹⁷ Your basket and your kneading trough will be cursed.

¹⁸ The fruit of your womb will be cursed, and the crops of your land, and the calves of your herds and the lambs of your flocks.

¹⁹ You will be cursed when you come in and cursed when you go out.

²⁰ The Lord will send on you curses, confusion and rebuke in everything you put your hand to, until you are destroyed and come to sudden ruin because of the evil you have done in forsaking him.^[a]

Footnotes:

1. Deuteronomy 28:20 Hebrew me
   

Deuteronomy 28:38-40

New International Version 1984 (NIV1984)

³⁸ You will sow much seed in the field but you will harvest little, because locusts will devour it. ³⁹ You will plant vineyards and cultivate them but you will not drink the wine or gather the grapes, because worms will eat them. ⁴⁰ You will have olive trees throughout your country but you will not use the oil, because the olives will drop off.

Deuteronomy 28:49-52

New International Version 1984 (NIV1984)

⁴⁹ The Lord will bring a nation against you from far away, from the ends of the earth, like an eagle swooping down, a nation whose language you will not understand, ⁵⁰ a fierce-looking nation without respect for the old or pity for the young. ⁵¹ They will devour the young of your livestock and the crops of your land until you are destroyed. They will leave you no grain, new wine or oil, nor any calves of your herds or lambs of your flocks until you are ruined. ⁵² They will lay siege to all the cities throughout your land until the high fortified walls in which you trust fall down. They will besiege all the cities throughout the land the Lord your God is giving you.

Deuteronomy 32:32-35

New International Version 1984 (NIV1984)

³² Their vine comes from the vine of Sodom

and from the fields of Gomorrah.

Their grapes are filled with poison,

and their clusters with bitterness.

³³ Their wine is the venom of serpents,

the deadly poison of cobras.

³⁴ “Have I not kept this in reserve

and sealed it in my vaults?

³⁵ It is mine to avenge; I will repay.

In due time their foot will slip;

their day of disaster is near

and their doom rushes upon them.”

Hosea 9:1-3

New International Version 1984 (NIV1984)

Punishment for Israel

9 Do not rejoice, O Israel;

do not be jubilant like the other nations.

For you have been unfaithful to your God;

you love the wages of a prostitute

at every threshing floor.

² Threshing floors and winepresses will not feed the people;

the new wine will fail them.

³ They will not remain in the Lord’s land;

Ephraim will return to Egypt

and eat unclean^[a] food in Assyria.

Hosea 9:7-10

New International Version 1984 (NIV1984)

⁷ The days of punishment are coming,

the days of reckoning are at hand.

Let Israel know this.

Because your sins are so many

and your hostility so great,

the prophet is considered a fool,

the inspired man a maniac.

⁸ The prophet, along with my God,

is the watchman over Ephraim,^[a]

yet snares await him on all his paths,

and hostility in the house of his God.

⁹ They have sunk deep into corruption,

as in the days of Gibeah.

God will remember their wickedness

and punish them for their sins.

¹⁰ “When I found Israel,

it was like finding grapes in the desert;

when I saw your fathers,

it was like seeing the early fruit on the fig tree.

But when they came to Baal Peor,

they consecrated themselves to that shameful idol

and became as vile as the thing they loved.

Footnotes:

1. Hosea 9:8 Or The prophet is the watchman over Ephraim, / the people of my God
   

The Israel of old will not dwell in the Lord's land. Old covenant Israel is compared to the vines of Sodom ( see Deut. above). The true Vine, the true Israel is Jesus Christ. He is the faithful, whereas OT Israel is in bondage to sin. The land He gave OT Israel belongs to God and He allowed them to live in it and prosper from it as long as they were obedient to His covenant. When they rejected it, He took them from the land and in the times of Jesus coming to earth they had heaped up their sins to the limit. God was going to rid Himself of this disobedient, stiff-necked people for good and replace her with the New Israel, which included the faithful remnant of OT Israel as well as the Gentiles who would believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, the New Israel of God. We always see the shadow and type and then the real throughout God's word.

Hosea 9:15-17

New International Version 1984 (NIV1984)

¹⁵ “Because of all their wickedness in Gilgal,

I hated them there.

Because of their sinful deeds,

I will drive them out of my house.

I will no longer love them;

all their leaders are rebellious.

¹⁶ Ephraim is blighted,

their root is withered,

they yield no fruit.

Even if they bear children,

I will slay their cherished offspring.”

¹⁷ My God will reject them

because they have not obeyed him;

they will be wanderers among the nations.

A people who have broken His covenant will not stay in His land. Those were the conditions of the Mosaic/Old Covenant that they agreed to. People who say that the Israel that became a nation in 1948 is God returning Israel to her land, but the land that I believe God refers to is the heavenly country, the New Jerusalem, the New Israel. Israel today has nothing in common with OT Israel, the nation that God made the covenant with. That nation practiced the Mosaic law with all its sacrifices and offerings. It heaped it sins to the limit when it rejected its Messiah, the Lord Jesus Christ. The mountain of God's inheritance is in heaven, the true Mount Zion, the true tabernacle of God.

Israel of old was likened to a vineyard, a branch, a fig tree that did not bear fruit. Both John the Baptist and Jesus said that the ax was ready at the root - ready to cut it down.

Isaiah 5:1-7

New International Version 1984 (NIV1984)

The Song of the Vineyard

5 I will sing for the one I love

a song about his vineyard:

My loved one had a vineyard

on a fertile hillside.

² He dug it up and cleared it of stones

and planted it with the choicest vines.

He built a watchtower in it

and cut out a winepress as well.

Then he looked for a crop of good grapes,

but it yielded only bad fruit.

³ “Now you dwellers in Jerusalem and men of Judah,

judge between me and my vineyard.

⁴ What more could have been done for my vineyard

than I have done for it?

When I looked for good grapes,

why did it yield only bad?

⁵ Now I will tell you

what I am going to do to my vineyard:

I will take away its hedge,

and it will be destroyed;

I will break down its wall,

and it will be trampled.

⁶ I will make it a wasteland,

neither pruned nor cultivated,

and briers and thorns will grow there.

I will command the clouds

not to rain on it.”

⁷ The vineyard of the Lord Almighty

is the house of Israel,

and the men of Judah

are the garden of his delight.

And he looked for justice, but saw bloodshed;

for righteousness, but heard cries of distress.

Matthew 21:33-45

The Parable of the Tenants

³³ “Listen to another parable: There was a landowner who planted a vineyard. He put a wall around it, dug a winepress in it and built a watchtower. Then he rented the vineyard to some farmers and went away on a journey. ³⁴ When the harvest time approached, he sent his servants to the tenants to collect his fruit.

³⁵ “The tenants seized his servants; they beat one, killed another, and stoned a third. ³⁶ Then he sent other servants to them, more than the first time, and the tenants treated them the same way. ³⁷ Last of all, he sent his son to them. ‘They will respect my son,’ he said.

³⁸ “But when the tenants saw the son, they said to each other, ‘This is the heir. Come, let’s kill him and take his inheritance.’ ³⁹ So they took him and threw him out of the vineyard and killed him.

⁴⁰ “Therefore, when the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those tenants?”

⁴¹ “He will bring those wretches to a wretched end,” they replied, “and he will rent the vineyard to other tenants, who will give him his share of the crop at harvest time.”

⁴² Jesus said to them, “Have you never read in the Scriptures:

“‘The stone the builders rejected

has become the capstone^[h];

the Lord has done this,

and it is marvelous in our eyes’^[i]?

⁴³ “Therefore I tell you that the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people who will produce its fruit. ⁴⁴ He who falls on this stone will be broken to pieces, but he on whom it falls will be crushed.”^[j]

⁴⁵ When the chief priests and the Pharisees heard Jesus’ parables, they knew he was talking about them. ⁴⁶ They looked for a way to arrest him, but they were afraid of the crowd because the people held that he was a prophet.

A lesson from this parable: OT Israel never bore fruit. NT Israel bears much fruit.

These people killed all the servants (prophets) ever sent to them. They would not listen to the Gardner so He pruned all the bad fruit from the vine.

Add parallel

Matthew 3:7-10

New International Version 1984 (NIV1984)

⁷ But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to where he was baptizing, he said to them: “You brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the coming wrath? ⁸ Produce fruit in keeping with repentance. ⁹ And do not think you can say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father.’ I tell you that out of these stones God can raise up children for Abraham. ¹⁰ The ax is already at the root of the trees, and every tree that does not produce good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire.

Luke 13:6-9

New International Version 1984 (NIV1984)

⁶ Then he told this parable: “A man had a fig tree, planted in his vineyard, and he went to look for fruit on it, but did not find any. ⁷ So he said to the man who took care of the vineyard, ‘For three years now I’ve been coming to look for fruit on this fig tree and haven’t found any. Cut it down! Why should it use up the soil?’

⁸ “‘Sir,’ the man replied, ‘leave it alone for one more year, and I’ll dig around it and fertilize it. ⁹ If it bears fruit next year, fine! If not, then cut it down.’”

For three years Jesus had been ministring to this OT people. He did not see any fruit so, figuratively speaking, He gave the order to cut down the fig tree.

Mark 11:12-14

New International Version 1984 (NIV1984)

Jesus Clears the Temple

¹² The next day as they were leaving Bethany, Jesus was hungry. ¹³ Seeing in the distance a fig tree in leaf, he went to find out if it had any fruit. When he reached it, he found nothing but leaves, because it was not the season for figs. ¹⁴ Then he said to the tree, “May no one ever eat fruit from you again.” And his disciples heard him say it...²⁰ In the morning, as they went along, they saw the fig tree withered from the roots. ²¹ Peter remembered and said to Jesus, “Rabbi, look! The fig tree you cursed has withered!

The Old Covenant was coming to an end with Israel of old. The New Covenant, the New Israel, the kingdom was near, the heavenly, spiritual kingdom with the true worshipers of God:

Luke 21:27-31

New International Version 1984 (NIV1984)

²⁷ At that time they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. ²⁸ When these things begin to take place, stand up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near.”

²⁹ He told them this parable: “Look at the fig tree and all the trees. ³⁰ When they sprout leaves, you can see for yourselves and know that summer is near. ³¹ Even so, when you see these things happening, you know that the kingdom of God is near.

These things were spoken to His disciples when they asked Him when one stone from the temple would not be left on another and what would be the sign that they are about to take place. The gospel went out into all the world and then came the end of the Old Covenant age.

Peter

[OneLight]

PGA, you are trying really hard to back your theology of Replacement Theory by taking scripture out of context. The line of Abraham is Gods chosen people. We are grafted into this line. You could not refute the scripture I posted, so you decided to take a different path. The Replacement Theory is a false teaching.

God will not allow sin into His presence, no matter who sins. That does not mean He decided to break His covenant with Israel, or that the Gentiles have replaces Israel. It means that He extended His covenant to the Gentiles, not replaced who is Israel.

[Guest]

PGA, you are trying really hard to back your theology of Replacement Theory by taking scripture out of context. The line of Abraham is Gods chosen people. We are grafted into this line. You could not refute the scripture I posted, so you decided to take a different path. The Replacement Theory is a false teaching.

God will not allow sin into His presence, no matter who sins. That does not mean He decided to break His covenant with Israel, or that the Gentiles have replaces Israel. It means that He extended His covenant to the Gentiles, not replaced who is Israel.

Amen~!

A Jew Is A Jew Is A Jew

And The Jew, The KING OF THE JEWS Is My LORD And My God

[PGA]

PGA, you are trying really hard to back your theology of Replacement Theory by taking scripture out of context. The line of Abraham is Gods chosen people. We are grafted into this line. You could not refute the scripture I posted, so you decided to take a different path. The Replacement Theory is a false teaching. -OL

Where have I done this OneLight? I took you to the OT to show you that God called His people - Israel - by various horticultural terms, such as a vine, a fig tree, branch and sometimes with derogatory terms like the vine of Sodom. We are told in the NT that all the Scriptures speak of Christ. Luke 24:25-27 says as much:

(NIV1984)

²⁵ He said to them, “How foolish you are, and how slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken! ²⁶ Did not the Christ^[a] have to suffer these things and then enter his glory?” ²⁷ And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he explained to them what was said in all the Scriptures concerning himself.

Then we have Jesus referring to Himself as the true Vine. Now if Israel is the vine we have been grafted into then surely it is the vine of Christ and none other.

John 15:1-9

New International Version 1984 (NIV1984)

The Vine and the Branches

15 “I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. ² He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes^[a] so that it will be even more fruitful. ³ You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you. ⁴ Remain in me, and I will remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me.

⁵ “I am the vine; you are the branches. If a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. ⁶ If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned. ⁷ If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be given you. ⁸ This is to my Father’s glory, that you bear much fruit, showing yourselves to be my disciples.

⁹ “As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Now remain in my love.

Footnotes:

1. John 15:2 The Greek for prunes also means cleans.
   

So who are we really grafted into? Are we grafted into Israel after the flesh or Israel after the spirit? In Post # 342 on the 'Was AD 70 the Parousia' I provided reasons why much of what was written in the OT was a shadow and type of what was to come, the reality of which is Christ Jesus.

Colossians 2:6-23

New International Version 1984 (NIV1984)

Freedom From Human Regulations Through Life With Christ

⁶ So then, just as you received Christ Jesus as Lord, continue to live in him,⁷ rooted and built up in him, strengthened in the faith as you were taught, and overflowing with thankfulness.

⁸ See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the basic principles of this world rather than on Christ.

⁹ For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form, ¹⁰ and you have been given fullness in Christ, who is the head over every power and authority. ¹¹ In him you were also circumcised, in the putting off of the sinful nature,^[a] not with a circumcision done by the hands of men but with the circumcision done by Christ, ¹² having been buried with him in baptism and raised with him through your faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead.

¹³ When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature,^[b] God made you^[c] alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, ¹⁴ having canceled the written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross. ¹⁵ And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.^[d]

¹⁶ Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. ¹⁷ These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ. ¹⁸ Do not let anyone who delights in false humility and the worship of angels disqualify you for the prize. Such a person goes into great detail about what he has seen, and his unspiritual mind puffs him up with idle notions. ¹⁹ He has lost connection with the Head, from whom the whole body, supported and held together by its ligaments and sinews, grows as God causes it to grow.

²⁰ Since you died with Christ to the basic principles of this world, why, as though you still belonged to it, do you submit to its rules: ²¹ “Do not handle! Do not taste! Do not touch!”? ²² These are all destined to perish with use, because they are based on human commands and teachings. ²³ Such regulations indeed have an appearance of wisdom, with their self-imposed worship, their false humility and their harsh treatment of the body, but they lack any value in restraining sensual indulgence.

Footnotes:

1. Colossians 2:11 Or the flesh
   
2. Colossians 2:13 Or your flesh
   
3. Colossians 2:13 Some manuscripts us
   
4. Colossians 2:15 Or them in him
   

The reality is in Christ and the New Covenant, not in the old with its circumcision of the flesh, feasts and celebrations, sabbath days, etc. Israel of the OT is Israel is also a shadow of what was to come, the Lord Jesus Christ. Many ti mes they are described as enemies of God and God's wrath is expressed towards them, especially when Jesus comes and they reject Him. Their sins are described as being heaped to the limit or filled to the measure.

God has made us alive with Christ in figuratively grafting us into Him.

God will not allow sin into His presence, no matter who sins. That does not mean He decided to break His covenant with Israel, or that the Gentiles have replaces Israel. It means that He extended His covenant to the Gentiles, not replaced who is Israel. -OneLight

No, God will not allow sin in His presence, so you either live the perfect life on your own merit or you rely on the merit of another.

The conditions of the covenant included blessings and curses (i.e., judgment). The all Israel that will be saved is the Israel of God, not the Israel after the flesh. The Israel of God are those in Christ Jesus. Do you deny any of these statements? God has always saved a remnant, those who lived by faith in Him and in the coming Messiah. Like Abraham they were looking for a better country and a better city than earthly Israel and earthly Jerusalem.

Hebrews 11:9-10

New International Version 1984 (NIV1984)

⁹ By faith he made his home in the promised land like a stranger in a foreign country; he lived in tents, as did Isaac and Jacob, who were heirs with him of the same promise. ¹⁰ For he was looking forward to the city with foundations, whose architect and builder is God.

Hebrews 11:13-16

New International Version 1984 (NIV1984)

¹³ All these people were still living by faith when they died. They did not receive the things promised; they only saw them and welcomed them from a distance. And they admitted that they were aliens and strangers on earth. ¹⁴ People who say such things show that they are looking for a country of their own. ¹⁵ If they had been thinking of the country they had left, they would have had opportunity to return. ¹⁶ Instead, they were longing for a better country—a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared a city for them.

What is God telling you OneLight? Israel, like so many other physical entities were just copies, foreshadows of what is real and what was to come.

You keep looking for an earthly Israel, just like you keep looking for an earthly city and earthly temple to be built.

Peter