Limited Atonement

[OneLight]

OneLight

You don't think God is sovereign? You don't find this anywhere in scripture?

What do you believe being sovereign means?

The only thing I said is that the Word is not in scripture. It is in some newer translations, but I study out of the KJV. Since it's not a word used in scripture, I never refer to it.

The definition means in a class of it's own, prince, supreme ruler.

Rom 13:1 says there is no power, but of God.

According to his divine power, He has given us all things that pertain to life and Godliness through the knowledge of him.

It's through his divine power we have things, there is no other divine power to rely on.

Divine power, being the only true source of real power, does not equate into lawlessness, or the breaking of His word. If God said he wishes no one to perish, then God has not hand picked some to endure hell despite their choices.

This topic often get some people to mention that God is Sovereign to say that God does not keep his word, and is a respecter of persons, doing what he wants, to who he wants, and when he wants. If that be the case, then we have nothing eternal to stand on.

Hence I avoid the Word, as it's not in my KJV.

Jesus Is Lord.

I am not a follower of predestination, but of free will. I am also a follower of God, being the beginning and the end, is able to look down through time to know what anyone will choose, having all knowledge.

Your understanding of God is Sovereign is not the understanding I have, so you are correct when you imply that others have a different understanding. Being Sovereign does not mean being a puppeteer. It means He can allow what He desires to happen, and disallow what He does not.

Perhaps you would have a better understand if you do not always stick to one bible. You are communicating with others that are reading other bibles. Maybe you should understand where they are coming from before taking a stance and making an argument. If you want to discuss with people who are using a different bible, look at what they are reading and respond to that instead of remaining in a place that causes a division. Try reading the Greek and Hebrew copies to understand better.

[OneLight]

Brother, correcting a person error is not pride. Rejecting correction is based in pride. Nothing that Shiloh has presented is in error.

Nowhere does Shiloh point to a denomination, but a movement which has no denominational roots.

I really try to avoid those that have judgements. He mentioned some names even. I would rather just stay away from all that.

I am not in favor of naming names in public, but the WoF is a movement that needs to be exposed for what it is. It damages the faith people do have if what they

"believe will happen" does not.

It means He can allow what He desires to happen, and disallow what He does not.

(1) Would it be possible God has to allow something, though it's not his will? (2) Does he pervert Judgement if man has a choice? (3) Would he rather that men obey him, and not have to be judged or destroyed?

Jesus Is Lord.

1. Yes, he does all the time. He allows people to sin so they can learn from their mistakes. Was it His will they sin? No, but He does not sit on His throne and pull stings so we will act according to His will.
2. No. People are judged for their choices.
3. It is His desire, as seen all through scripture, that we Love Him with the Love He gives. Love trumps obedience ... read 1 Corinthians 13.

[Guest shiloh357]

Your hung up on denominations now. The scripture does not say God knows the end from the beginning. That is a misquote from Isa. I am not clear on what the Word of Faith movement interprets Mark 11:22, what I have looked at was written by someone that studies Greek and is a Baptist.

They may claim to study Greek, but they are not very good at Greek. The Greek manuscripts simply don't support that. The reason is that the grammatical structure of Mark 11:22 in Greek doesn't have faith as its object. God is the object. Since God is the object, it is impossible for the verse to read "have the faith of God" as that would make faith the object. Sorry but that is just incorrect.

By saying that God knows the end from the beginning, I was not trying quote from isaiah. I am simply stating a fact that everyone who knows God personally knows. God demonstrates that He knows the beginning from the end. The fact that He reveals the end through His prophets and apostles demonstrates that God knows exactly what will happen in the future and He knows it with amazing detailed precision.

I am not sure what you think everything was made from. I guess nothing, even though there is a science beyond understanding God uses.

It doesn't matter what the universe was created from. The Bible doesn't say that faith is a creative substance. The Bible doesn't say that God used faith to create the world. You claim to not know what the WoF teaches, but you are quoting Kenneth Hagin and Kenneth Copeland almost verbatim. I used to live in Tulsa and had to work around Rhema Students and I got a steady dose of this stuff during the two the years I lived there.

Faith is not a force that God used to create the universe. In the Bible, biblical faith is man trusting God in a God they cannot see to remain faithful to His promises to them. God sees all and knows all. God doesn't need faith because God doesn't have to "believe" anything due to being all knowing.

Faith is always object oriented and faith always has God as its object. To make faith the object would mean that we would have to faith IN faith which is a biblical absurdity.

And we have come down to finding every little thing possibly wrong that someone posted, it's pride, it's not God, and no reason to add to this.

It is not about finding every little thing wrong with what you have posted. You have posted major biblical error. You are taking extreme liberties with the biblical text and are parroting false teachers.

The question was does God have a limited atonement, and I failed to introduce things as some seem to know everything, which I don't, so I am out.

Yes the question is whether or not God knows everything and you said He doesn' t and you couched your reponses in the WoF teachings because according to you, God "believes" but is neither sovereign nor all knowing. You have demonstrated extreme doctrinal error that has to be addressed.

[Guest shiloh357]

The only thing I said is that the Word is not in scripture. It is in some newer translations, but I study out of the KJV. Since it's not a word used in scripture, I never refer to it.

So you are hung up something having to appear in the KJV??? That's the basis of your rejection?? The problem is that the word doesn't have to appear in order for the concept to be there. Romans 9 is all about the sovereignty of God, but the word sovereignty doesn't appear in the text. The concept is nonetheless taught out of that chapter. The basis of your rejection is very weak.

The definition means in a class of it's own, prince, supreme ruler.

No that is not the definition. Sovereign speaks to God as the one who is control. He uses men and women for His purposes, even if they are not aware of it. I can look back in my life and clearly see the sovereign hand of God at work, even the times that I did not realize that He was directing my steps.

]Rom 13:1 says there is no power, but of God.

According to his divine power, He has given us all things that pertain to life and Godliness through the knowledge of him.

It's through his divine power we have things, there is no other divine power to rely on.

Divine power, being the only true source of real power, does not equate into lawlessness, or the breaking of His word. If God said he wishes no one to perish, then God has not hand picked some to endure hell despite their choices.

God doesn't pick who goes to hell. He doesn't pick people to be saved. God permits people to reject Him if they so choose. But God is still sovereign. Sovereignty doesn't mean that God micro-manages every aspect of our lives and controls our every step, otherwise God would be responsible for every time we sinned.

This topic often get some people to mention that God is Sovereign to say that God does not keep his word, and is a respecter of persons, doing what he wants, to who he wants, and when he wants. If that be the case, then we have nothing eternal to stand on.

Those who support the sovereignty of God do not say that God doesn't keep His word. God uses whom he will for the purposes he wills. That is what Paul says in Romans 9. God makes some as vessels for honor and others for dishonor. The potter can make a lump of clay into a beautiful vase or a common cereal bowl. But it is the decision of the potter who is "sovereign" over the clay. Likewise, God uses some in more public ways. like Billy Graham, but others He uses in less grandiose purposes. He calls some to serve Him as missionaries, evangelists, pastors, and others He calls to serve as housewives, or in their day-to-day jobs. That is not being a "respector of persons"

Hence I avoid the Word, as it's not in my KJV.

The KJV also does not contain the word "Grandfather." Do you then operate from the notion that Grandfathers didn't exist in the Bible because it is now word that appears in your KJV???

[Guest shiloh357]

What I said is that we have many scriptures concerning man, not the surrounding plan that God takes a position of wanting the best for them, planing the best for them, but man just won't do as God said do.

What you said is that God is not sovereign and you are simply incorrect on that. The Bible clearly demonstrates the fact that God has aperfect and permissive aspects to His will. I am assuming that is what you are referring to.

God said I think only thoughts of peace toward you. Is this just because God's nature is love, and by nature just only thinks the best? If someone thinks only the best, then failure is not ever considered. If God knows failure is going to happen, then God can't possibly think the best, but lead that man into thinking he made his own choices, when in reality his lost condition is already set.

Man's failure to obey God and to come to God in repentance is not a failure on God's part. God is not a failure because men reject Him.

I don't have the answers, I just brought it up to discusses and instead get a lesson about some Bible college in Tulsa, and the evils of the Word of Faith camp who I have never heard mention this subject with what exposure I have had with them.

Sorry, but you quoted them so verbatim, right down the line, that I don't believe you. I think you know exactly who I am talking about.

So then the question is would God not know then or choose not to know what man will eventually decided. If you decide that God knows everything then the topic is closed.

God knows every decision that every person will ever make. He knew all the sins i would commit after salvation and He saved me anyway. God is all knowing and that means He knows everything from start to finish. He is omnipresent. He knows the future because He is already there. Nothing takes God surprise. An all knowing God does not choose not to know something. That suggestion is patently absurd and goes against God's revealed nature.

[GoldenEagle]

shiloh357

Brother, you need to pay attention to what I wrote.

God knows every decision that every person will ever make. He knew all the sins i would commit after salvation and He saved me anyway.

You have no scripture to support that statement. The scripture says God knows everything about the heart, that's in John, that is as close as your going to find in scripture.

If I may… We as Christ followers can say with confidence that God is omniscient.

A. God is Omniscient (all knowing). I’ll include NKJ and KJV translations so we’re all on the same page. (Is. 40:13-14)

Is. 40:13-14 NKJV

¹³ Who has directed the Spirit of the Lord,

Or as His counselor has taught Him?

¹⁴ With whom did He take counsel, and who instructed Him,

And taught Him in the path of justice?

Who taught Him knowledge,

And showed Him the way of understanding?

Is. 40:13-14 KJV

¹³ Who hath directed the Spirit of the Lord, or being his counsellor hath taught him?

¹⁴ With whom took he counsel, and who instructed him, and taught him in the path of judgment, and taught him knowledge, and shewed to him the way of understanding?

B. Again God is Omniscient (all knowing). God is not limited by darkness or light. They are both the same to Him. God knows what we do and understands our thoughts even before we do. (Ps. 139:2-6)

Ps. 139:2-6 NKJV

¹ O Lord, You have searched me and known me.

² You know my sitting down and my rising up;

You understand my thought afar off.

³ You comprehend my path and my lying down,

And are acquainted with all my ways.

⁴ For there is not a word on my tongue,

But behold, O Lord, You know it altogether.

⁵ You have hedged me behind and before,

And laid Your hand upon me.

⁶ Such knowledge is too wonderful for me;

It is high, I cannot attain it.

¹² Indeed, the darkness shall not hide from You,

But the night shines as the day;

The darkness and the light are both alike to You.

Ps. 139:2-6 KJV

² Thou knowest my downsitting and mine uprising, thou understandest my thought afar off.

³ Thou compassest my path and my lying down, and art acquainted with all my ways.

⁴ For there is not a word in my tongue, but, lo, O Lord, thou knowest it altogether.

⁵ Thou hast beset me behind and before, and laid thine hand upon me.

⁶ Such knowledge is too wonderful for me; it is high, I cannot attain unto it.

¹² Yea, the darkness hideth not from thee; but the night shineth as the day: the darkness and the light are both alike to thee.

C. God sees all things. Nothing can be hidden from His knowledge. (Ps. 44:21)

Ps. 44:21 NKJV

²¹ Would not God search this out?

For He knows the secrets of the heart.

Ps. 44:21 KJV

²¹ Shall not God search this out? for he knoweth the secrets of the heart.

D. God understands our intentions better than we do.

Jeremiah 17:9-10 NKJV

⁹ “The heart is deceitful above all things,

And desperately wicked;

Who can know it?

¹⁰ I, the Lord, search the heart,

I test the mind,

Even to give every man according to his ways,

According to the fruit of his doings.

Jeremiah 17:9-10 KJV

⁹ The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

¹⁰ I the Lord search the heart, I try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings.

E. God’s Word helps us discern the thoughts and intentions of the heart. Yet everything else (all creation and creature) is not hidden from his sight but are open to the eyes of God.

Heb. 4:12-23 NKJV

¹² For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. ¹³ And there is no creature hidden from His sight, but all things are naked and open to the eyes of Him to whom we must give account.

Heb. 4:12-23 KJV

¹² For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

¹³ Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do.

F. There is no one like our God. (v. 9) God declares the end from the beginning and even knows things that are not yet done. God will do what pleases Him. (v. 10) God acts and intervenes in history to accomplish His ends. (v. 11)

Isaiah 46:9–10 NKJV

⁹ Remember the former things of old,

For I am God, and there is no other;

I am God, and there is none like Me,

¹⁰ Declaring the end from the beginning,

And from ancient times things that are not yet done,

Saying, ‘My counsel shall stand,

And I will do all My pleasure,’

¹¹ Calling a bird of prey from the east,

The man who executes My counsel, from a far country.

Indeed I have spoken it;

I will also bring it to pass.

I have purposed it;

I will also do it.

Isaiah 46:9–10 KJV

⁹ Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,

¹⁰Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

¹¹ Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it.

Thoughts on these passages?

God bless,

GE

[Guest shiloh357]

You have no scripture to support that statement. The scripture says God knows everything about the heart, that's in John, that is as close as your going to find in scripture.

scripture please.

Jesus is able to predict how His enemies would respond to Him. Jesus was able prophesy. God tells us the end through the words of His prophets. He reveals the future of the nations and how they will turn upon Israel. He tells us that only a relative few will accept Him. He tells us about the future all of the time, and we know He is accurate due to prophecies that have been fulfilled. So God demonstrates many times in Scripture that He knows the future and He knows the eternal past.

God is eternal, and time is meaningless to Him. God is in the past, present and future. He is without limit in what He knows.

Pick your bible and stick with it. You did not like when I used the YLT, so make up your mind and lets stick with the terms used. I can take a bunch of bibles and make up any doctrine with selected scriptures out of each one.

Your position is wrong in any version you choose to use.

My point is that the Word Sovereign is used to denote God hand picks before time the ones that will roast in hell forever.

Sovereign simply means that God is control and can do as He pleases. The reference to who is saved and who is not is called "Election.' You are confusing sovereignty with election. Election or as the Calvinists put it, "Uconditional Election" is seen as an application of God's sovereign right to "elect" whom He chooses for salvation.

So, until you gain a firmer grasp on terminology, you are going to find this conversation to be fruitless.

I gave you the English definition. Where do you get your definition? Where the word come from? It's a 14th Century French word which meant head of state, ruler.

Yep, but you are adding to the definition with the stuff you posted below:

God is Sovereign, he will make you sick if he wants, he will kill your kids if he wants, he does what he wants. The word is used to blame God for every thing on the planet. God is in control of everything, directs everything. That is not true, and God is not killing your kids. This is why I shudder when I hear believers mention the word as they are about to pin something evil on God.

You are perverting the meaning of sovereign. There is a version of Sovereignty out there, known as hyper-sovereignty that holds to the notion that God is responsible for everything, good or bad that happens. Those who hold to that version of sovereignty are misled and highly mistaken in their understanding of what sovereign means. if you are quoting a person who ascribes to the hyper-sovereign, hyper-calivinsitic position, it is easy to see why you are confused.

God is sovereign in the sense that He is guiding the world to it's ineviible end and nothing that satan or mankind do will alter His plans for us. He is the architect of the ages and His control of the universe is such that He can take even the worst things we do and bring good from them. All of the wars, poverty, oppression, violence and sin in this world will not thwart God's plan. They are not engineered into His plan, but neither will they cause God's will to come to naught.

In the end, God's perfect will, will prevail.

[allofgrace]

God's sovereignty in salvation

God's sovereignty in salvation means that He saves whom He will, and those whom He saves owe nothing to anything in or of themselves. They are saved because God graciously chose them in eternity and regenerated and called them in history. They cannot even take credit for their faith because it is the gift that He Him

Until this was added in I would have agreed . Adding in that one is regenerated before conversion in order that they may believe is where the conflict comes in. I do believe that it is all of grace and that faith comes by hearing and the gospel is the power of God unto salvation just as

Romans 1:16 says. Paul says in Eph 1:13-14 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

To take John 3 and say that one is born again prior to believing is reading into the passage what one wants to see, not what is there. To condemn all who have no opportunity to repent makes the call to repentance a farce and condemns all who are born because of simply being born and doing as they were programed to do and is not my idea of God who shows no partiality. Of course those who see it differently are blind to that reasoning and call it just. They don't mind one child of theirs being an elect and the others going to hell because they were simply not elected, they thank that its just grace and tough for their non-elect children.

Wonder how many of them tell their wayward children, if you only were elected, it would have been different, but that's the way it goes. They say God doesn't love the non elect so they can't do like Him and love their children, but wait, God tells us to love our enemies and they tell us He doesn't love His non elect. That doesn't sound scriptural, but they are blind to that also.

Good thing we all have a copy of the word of God and then we can all be fully persuaded in our own minds by the word of God and the leading of the Holy Spirit. You can tell, I don't agree with the all not meaning all who will receive Him, I believe all means all who receives Him He gives the power to become the children of God(John 1:12) They also say they come freely by their own will and receive Him just after they tell you his call to the elect is irresistible. They cannot resist the call and it makes them believe but they do come on their own. It sounds confusing, but not to them.

It may sound like I am making light of their reasoning but this is the way I have heard it countless times, if I misstated any facts correct me, thanks.

[JohnD]

Was Christ's atoning death only for the elect, or for all people?

1 John 2:2 (KJV)

2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

1 Timothy 4:10 (KJV)

10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

Does this mean the whole world is saved?

John 3:16-18 (KJV)

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Belief opens the gates of heaven made possible by the sacrifice of the Lord Jesus Christ and all mankind is invited to beieve.

Unbelief paves the way to hell.

There's your predestination versus free will:

Salvation is available to all men.

Thems that believ is saved

Thems that don't aint.

predetermined predestination (all men are born hell bound if and until they believe in Jesus Christ whosoever will) period end of debate amen and thank God.

[AlexanderJ]

Just because God knows what will happen does not mean that he is the one who chooses for or causes it to happen. In the words of a wise Christian: "...obviously to watch a man doing something is not to make him do it."