Marijuana Question

[ayin jade]

The fault is the occasional greedy doctor then, not the manufacturer.

[Guest shiloh357]

Whoa! Take it easy, guys!

I was looking at it from this angle: It's not wrong for Christians to drink alcohol as long as they don't get drunk, so would smoking marijuana in moderation also be okay?

By the way, I don't do either. I'm simply curious of the types of answers this subject would receive.

I'm not sure you can smoke MJ in moderation. I mean, a person can drink and not get buzzed or drunk, but one cannot smoke MJ in the same way. I mean the point of smoking it is for the mind altering effects it causes. People don't smoke MJ to not get stoned. So I am not sure we can compare the two.

Personally, I don't think it is right to do anything that causes any loss of our mental faculties where we are more vulnerable to sin in those times. The Bible places such a high premium on always practicing good judgment that doing anything to ourselves that impairs our judgment would contradict the teachings of Scripture and thus would not be right for a Christian to engage in.

We are to be people who live above the moral fog that is so characteristic of this world. We are to be people whose character is to be above reproach in these areas. We are kings and priests to the most high God and our moral conduct should reflect that in the world.

[Peace Maker Tony]

I am not trying to down play it but just being realistic , pot is not a big deal to stop using when a person chooses to stop ,, cigarettes are far more addictive than pot is , and cigarettes have no medicinal value at all. Real drugs like cocaine , heroin , pcp designer drugs are far worse as they cause severe trauma , people will commit any crime to get money to pay for real drugs , women sell their body for a line of coke , but not for a joint,

Consider how irritable cig smokers get if they can't smoke every break at work ,on the way to and from work , all day every day even when legal .When they are told they can't smoke they get agitated ,even angry .When laws get passed that ban smoking the smokers become very angry and outraged at how dare they ban smoking while not caring about those who don't smoke .Smokers carry on as if a right has been taken from them not accepting it was only a privilege that they abused so much that laws had to be passed to curtail the abuse of smoking in the face of people who do not want smoke in their face.

So what I am saying is that people who smoke cigs fit the description you give of those who get stoned regularly and have no pot to smoke ,cig smokers are the same way . A very large number of Christians still smoke cigs and think it ok and say they'll quit someday but look down on others that smoke pot ..Consider where someone grows up, if pot is legal all their life it is not looked upon the same as those who grow up where it is illegal

Heroin , morphine , crack cocaine are a whole different story and legal pharmaceutical drugs are far worse than pot can ever be,,just think about Oxycontin and the various derivatives and the drug company that made them hid the addictive results in order to make billions

My first reply will echo one I stated elsewhere in this, or another thread about marijuana, which is : why do defenders of pot always compare it to other things in order to try justify it? Do we say stealing isn't so bad because murder is worse? In the same vein, is marijuana good because it's not as bad as cocaine? It seems like that was the angle your comments were coming from, with your foremost example being your comparison between cigarette and pot smokers.

But IMHO such straw-man/non sequitur comments do not bolster your pro-pot stance. Can you talk about pot without bringing any other drug up? If pot was good you wouldn't need to bring up anything else, it would be self-evident. But it isn't good, so you need to compare it to some things that are worse than it, or have cons of their own, in order to make pot seem good, or harmless, or no big deal, or whatever.

Here's just a quick question for you: what do you think is the more common scenario for drug-users? :

1) they start out on hard drugs, like cocaine, heroin, etc., and then graduate towards pot ........... OR

2) they start out with marijuana, and then graduate towards the hard drugs, like cocaine, heroin, etc.?

I think you see my point, that, like pornography addictions need to get harder and more perverse in order to satisfy the never-satisfied lust of the flesh, so too, in the case of drugs, pot often quickly becomes "not enough", and leads many users to try other drugs in order to try satisfy that particular lust of the flesh. So just that factor alone makes cigarette smoking not even qualified to be discussed in the same conversation about marijuana.

Now in answer to your other points, marijuana fries your brain, and harms your body just as much as cigarettes do, if not more, so once again, comparing it to harsher drugs, or whatever other angle you may use, proves nothing. So if all you've got is, "it's easier to withdraw from pot-smoking than from cigarette-smoking", or, "it is "easier to quit than drinking is", or "Christians smoke cigarettes, so why can't they smoke marijuana?", then sorry friend, you're going to have to do better than that.

Can pot stand on it's own merits without being compared to anything else? Or can I justify eating 2 Big Macs a day because it's better than eating 5 bags of Oreo cookies a day? Do you see what I mean?

[enoob57]

You could just blow this thread off and still be on topic I know... don't let your limbs get out of joint... Love, Steven

[Guest ninhao]

Personally, I don't think it is right to do anything that causes any loss of our mental faculties where we are more vulnerable to sin in those times. The Bible places such a high premium on always practicing good judgment that doing anything to ourselves that impairs our judgment would contradict the teachings of Scripture and thus would not be right for a Christian to engage in.

We are to be people who live above the moral fog that is so characteristic of this world. We are to be people whose character is to be above reproach in these areas. We are kings and priests to the most high God and our moral conduct should reflect that in the world.

Amen

[Peace Maker Tony]

A Christian has an obligation to obey the law, and so should not use illegal drugs.

Yes, he does, if it is a Godly law, but that subject is discussed in another thread, so I won't rehash it here.

But, legal drugs are a matter of conscience.

Our conscience comes from the Holy Spirit, does it not? If so, when would He tell us to smoke pot?

Drugs are not inherently wrong, unlike abortion.

Okay let me ask you this. If drugs are not wrong, would you really not have a problem with it if your pastor toked up all the time?

Why is consuming marijuana an appearance/form of evil?

Well for one thing, the bible says the use of drugs is akin to sorcery. Also, can you at least admit that drug-taking is worldly - ie: fleshly - if nothing else? But of course it is more than that. And the reason why it is an appearance/form of evil is because you are willfully intoxicating your body and there are no good connotations to the term "drug addict", which is what anyone who regularly takes drugs is. People can play semantic games by talking of "recreational drug use", or other fancy ways of saying "drug addict", but the results are the same.

No one in his right mind would automatically say anything to the effect of, "that's so great that he's a drug user".

Of course, a Christian shouldn't use drugs in any fashion that would lead someone to the idea that a pagan religion is being practiced. Marijuana consumption usually isn't associated with pagan religion.

But marijuana consumption is a spiritual thing to those who have used it enough. You can liken pot-smoking to just getting mellow, or putting yourself into a relaxed state, or whatever, but the fact is your mind is being altered when you smoke drugs. And the mind is where Satan attacks, and how can you resist his attacks when you are not even in a normal state of mind?

Anyway, I don't think it's a very good witness for Christians to go to church dressed like pot-smoking hippies or mall rats. If this is really all about appearances....

Yes, it is about appearances, as in the mall rat/hippie look you referred to, but appearances also means perceptions. A pastor can be in a 3-piece suit and as soon as he lights up a joint in front of me, my perception of him changes. You know what I mean?

Edited December 18, 2012 by Peace Maker Tony

[Peace Maker Tony]

Personally, I don't think it is right to do anything that causes any loss of our mental faculties where we are more vulnerable to sin in those times. The Bible places such a high premium on always practicing good judgment that doing anything to ourselves that impairs our judgment would contradict the teachings of Scripture and thus would not be right for a Christian to engage in.

We are to be people who live above the moral fog that is so characteristic of this world. We are to be people whose character is to be above reproach in these areas. We are kings and priests to the most high God and our moral conduct should reflect that in the world.

Amen

Absolutely, very well said!

[ayin jade]

The fault is the occasional greedy doctor then, not the manufacturer.

I provided proof that the manufacturer did indeed intentionally falsify their product , so YES that is their fault and it happens for more often than you know,,

The greedy doctors are not connected to the fact that the manufacturer.is greedy also ,,in both cases though it comes down to the love of money

When the doctors dont believe the claims of the manufacturer, then the manufacturer isnt at fault. You stated the docs knowingly overwrite those prescriptions just for kickbacks, then it is the fault of the doctors.

Anyway, it is pointless for me to continue. I learned a long time ago it wasnt worth debating medical issues with those outside the medical profession.

[Peace Maker Tony]

How many years have you actually used drugs and partied with other drug users?None right? Pot has been shown to help is various ways in the medical field just as morphine and cocaine has but yet both are used recreationally illegally Cocaine was the original ingredient in Coca-Cola derived from the plant , then caffeine .replaced it

Hmmmmm, why does that matter? Because you're itching to tell me that if I never tried it I shouldn't say anything about it, right? But again, it doesn't matter, because if I told you I've done plenty more than you and your friends, would you then cut me some slack that maybe I know a little bit about what I'm talking about? I suspect that even then you wouldn't. And I don't know how much of this thread you've read, but in one of my other posts I explained some of what I know about drugs and how I know it.

Yes, I am aware that cocaine was in Coca-Cola and that they used to rub heroin on baby's teeth and all that stuff. And? As I've stated elsewhere, legality is not an issue with me. I couldn't care less what the government calls legal. And your, and others' ubiquitously-trumpeted phrase that pot has been shown to be helpful to some people is a moot point. Because it may help in one area but harm in 5 others.

Obviously you have misinterpreted everything I say ,,you get the idea that because someone shows a different side of things that they are defending pot,,,I am not defending it except for medicinal use if there is valid reason for it , God will be judge not you, God made the pot plant , and all other plants that can be used for good , even though some use it for wrong reasons. Point is that there are some people who are genetically more prone to addiction

Well, if I am misinterpreting you, it is because in one breath you talk about medicinal use, and in the same breath you talk about recreational use. Are they one and the same to you? Are you defending both? Also, your different point of view doesn't enter into the equation, so please don't try and make it about that, as if I am just here to disagree with you because I love to be disagreeable. My posts to you have mostly been about your methodology in defending pot, which you curiously have not responded to.

So the basic gist of this statement is, since none of can know if we fall into the category of those that are predisposed to becoming addicted, right from the get-go there is a definite risk involved in smoking up. So how much risk is acceptable in your view?

The word "addiction" doesn't have a positive aspect to it, does it? I think that's why the national pot advocacy groups severely downplay this aspect, as it would definitely hurt their cause. Interestingly, one of the hallmarks of addiction is denial. ^{How many pot smokers have you known that admitted they had a problem? Exactly, same goes for me.}

Anyway, factors in the causality of addiction include how much is used and the potency of it. Obviously if someone smokes a joint once in a blue moon he is likely not going to get addicted. But I have never seen a recreational pot-smoker that wasn't addicted to it. That's why we have the term, "recreational use", so we can deny that it is an addiction or need. It's a really nice P.R. term IMO.

One question I might add is, if it is simply recreational, and not addiction, what is their motivation/reason for regularly using it? I'm not talking about using it to try curb severe pain, I'm talking about their need or desire to get high. It is an escape from reality and fleshly pursuit of pleasure.

Case in point for that question : nobody drinks alcohol because they love the flavor, because if they said that's the reason, I would then ask why no one drinks a case of soda in one go like alcohol drinkers often do. There are many millions more soft drink-lovers than dope smokers, yet you don't see the same behavior. People drink alcohol to get high; they like the sensations it produces in their body ; they like having their mental processes altered. Same thing with drug users, right? So the obvious point is, the recreational part of pot-smoking means getting high, escaping from reality, numbing their senses, tripping out, etc. So please tell me what is so good about that. And please tell me how the word "recreational" has any bearing on smoking drugs? Is drug use a hobby? Is it for fun? Something to do in your spare time? Anyway, I'm done flogging that horse, I'll move along to your next points.

Wait, one more comment. My buddies couldn't start their day without having 2 joints with their breakfast. In fact that was their breakfast! And none of them were hardcore users, just guys that would smoke up at a rock concert, or the odd party.

but this notion of pot being a gateway drug is false in the way it is taught , It depends on what a given person is seeking , most teenagers don't know much about drugs so they experiment with various ones till they find what they like, ..some people never smoke pot but will smoke coke cause they have already snorted coke and liked it. the idea that a person has a addiction to porn has to get into harder and harder more perverted porn in nonsense,

Pot absolutely is a gateway to other drugs for most users, and as to what a given person is seeking, they are seeking to feed their lust of the flesh, are they not? It astounds me that you don't see even the slightest spiritual component to drug-taking. Healthy/stable-minded people in love with Christ and walking in the spirit have no need for drugs as far as I'm concerned.

People take drugs because something is wrong in their lives, not because something is good in their lives. Think about that!

As to your point about it being nonsense, all I can say is, What????? Then pray-tell, why have the porno mags gotten more and more explicit over the decades? Because no one is into hardcore? Have you never heard the expression, "give the people what they want"? Your comment here shows a serious lack of understanding about addiction and a similar amount of denial. Not to mention, a lack of understanding about what the bible calls a reprobate mind. You don't go from "fine" to reprobate over night. It is a process whereby the more you partake of sin, the more sin you need and the worse it gets. When you open the door to sin, sin doesn't just sit there all content and happy, it makes you want more of it. So for the life of me, I don't know how you can act like the sin of pornography just stays the same.

Why is Playboy magazine losing money? Because it is too soft for the average porn consumer?

highly exaggerated ,,,there are many Christian women that are addicted to porn but are not seeking more perverse porn or sexual encounters, There are sex addicts that just need lots of sex but that does not mean it has to become perverted sex .

You know this about Christian women, how? And I notice you didn't include men, which are different than women.

Do you seriously not see any ripple effect to sin? Beastiality is now legal in some Scandinavian countiries. Swearing and full nudity is no longer rare on t.v. anymore. So it doesn't matter if some people don't do "perverted" sex, or aren't as "bad" as others, the point is that all sin, when excused, will eventually lead to the inexcusable. I should copyright that quote.

The thing is, all I did was say one sentence about the colloration between the addictions of porn and drugs, and it wasn't my intention to get side-tracked from the topic of marijuana.

Do you think there is ANY, any at all, innocency to sin? As in, there is no ripple effect to it? Do you think a sinful lifestyle controls you, or you control it? You can just indulge in 1 sin and never desire any related ones? Is the flesh, which 24/7 wars against the spirit, ever satisfied? Can a stoned, intoxicated mind resist the temptations of the devil?

Problem is that just because pot has been illegal and now illegal is where all this comes from as there have been people trying to make it legal for decades , My point about cig smoking is that is NONE reasons to smoke except gratification ,NO health benefits and is 100% Harmful to the body

Okay, I am asking you a sincere and honest question here, and I would expect the same in your answer. Has the motive behind this decades-long fight for legalization been to help cancer victims relieve their pain? Or has it been more like to promote a drug lifestyle or counterculture (which is a fancy way of saying 'rebellion')?

And I guess you whizzed by my request that you make your case for pot without comparing it to anything. But you insist on making a,"it's better than cigarettes" kind of plea. But we're not discussing cigarettes. This thread is not about cigarettes. They could be the absolute worst susbstance one could ever put into the body, they could kill a billion people a year; but that would not prove anything about any positivity of using marijuana! So why do you keep bringing them up? Surely that is not how you judge the morality and correctness about things in your life. So please try to refrain from the comparisons of one vice to another!

and millions of Christians smoke them and it is a sin to take anything that causes harm to the body of the Holy Spirit but this practice is permitted and accepted by many churches

Absolutely agree that harming the body can be a sin! Except it appears that you don't think pot-smoking grieves the Holy Spirit, correct?

And I couldn't care less what is accepted. Morality is not a mass-approved concept.

but when it comes to pot and it is all condemnation even though it has been proven to be medicinally beneficial and it is due to the stigma of being illegal .

So your solution is what, don't condemn one vice (pot) because another (cigarettes) isn't condemned? You think it isn't fair? I agree that people aren't consistent in their condemnation, but I don't agree that pot is this wonderful drug you're making it out to be. Both are harmful, in different ways. Smoking cigarettes relaxes the nerves in people, so that makes smoking okay? Shall I get on a soapbox about how cigs are good because they do that, while ignoring the plethora of harmful effects it has on the body? I think that's what you're doing about pot. You're screaming into the megaphone (so to speak) about how pot is helpful to people (what, it helps people in pain?) while ignoring the numerous health problems associated with it.

As to your statement that pot has been proven to be medicinally beneficial, not meaning to be crude, but so has drinking your own urine for health benefits.

Cig makers are proven to put chemicals in their cigs for the purpose of making them addictive cause if a person can break the habit the maker loses money. Cig makers for decades paid huge "perks' and made HUGE donations to political parties to make sure cigs remain legal.

Pot is available is ways that it does not need to be smoked and provides health benefits , there is no way to make cigs health benefits, but they have always been legal because the powers of regulation get huge financial benefits , it they did not they would have shut down the cig industry decades ago

Let me try to make a direct and simple point. NO ONE at my place of employment is allowed to come to work with marijuana (or, obviously, any other drug) in his system. They are not allowed to smoke it on the premises or during work hours. They are not allowed to work around machinery, ETC. And it is not because the workforce wants to be mean to people. Or discriminate, or take away rights, or because they are ignorant about pot, or judgmental, holier than thou, or anything of the sort. It is because marijuana IMPAIRS YOU and will negatively affect your work duties. How is that not obvious to you? Is it not equally obvious that the employees receive no such disapprobation against smoking cigarettes????

If you have pot in your system at my workplace, someone is going to get badly hurt or killed, pure and simple. And I would refuse to work beside you, your hurt feelings notwitstanding. This isn't a game about poor downtrodden pot advocates that no one understands and that always get denied their rights.

It all comes down to the greed and lust of money, same reason pharmaceutical companies give huge donations to universities and hospitals with the agreement the the recipients will not prescribe and endorse naturally grown herbs and fruits and vegetation because it is all about control ,,No company can put a patent on grapes or apples,

but they can put patents on man made chemicals that simulate what natural fruits and herbs can do .

And you think it would be different with pot?

Anyway, if you saw how slow I type, you would know how long it takes me to answer just 1 post like this, so my time is out. You haven't answered any of my questions, nor provided any evidence for your statements, instead just going on and on about cigarettes. Pot AND Cigarettes are bad; it doesn't matter which one is worse.

[Peace Maker Tony]

Here's just a quick question for you: what do you think is the more common scenario for drug-users? :

1) they start out on hard drugs, like cocaine, heroin, etc., and then graduate towards pot ........... OR

2) they start out with marijuana, and then graduate towards the hard drugs, like cocaine, heroin, etc.?

This is a​ false dichotomy. There is no graduation from one drug or another. If so you would have included cigarettes. The reason why weed is called a "gateway" drug is because it is illegal. If tobacco were illegal then it would be called a gateway drug. Why? This is because the people that sell weed also sell other harder drugs, thus making it easier for a person to get access to them.

What is with the comparisons between apples and oranges I keep seeing? Nobody graduates from cigarettes to other drugs, as is the case with non-cigarette drug-users.

Cigarettes will never be a gateway to anything, because they don't get you stoned and impair you like marijuana does, and they don't affect you in the same ways that pot does. And people who smoke cigs don't do so for the same reasons pot-smokers do, and vice versa. And about graduation, in many cases there absolutely is when it comes to pot.

The reason many people progress from the softer to harder drugs is because the former lose their effect and no longer give them the sensations they crave. This absolutely does not happen in the case of cigs. Unless you want to tell me that people who smoke cigs would start smoking weed if cigarettes were banned!

But as I've said several times in different posts, the issue of legality or illegality is a red herring.