VII. Legalism - Letter (Quote) from a Pastor

[GoldenEagle]

Tullian Tchividjian

Double checked with my friend. The OP is excerpted from his forthcoming book One-Way Love: Inexhaustible Grace for an Exhausted World.

http://thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/tullian/

A good reminder are quotes are not meant to cover entire realms of a subject in one to three lines or even a few paragraphs. That's what sermons and books are for. This one quote may not address everything that is to come out in the book.

[GoldenEagle]

^{The guy is speaking of how a certain type of preaching effected him, and he is making out like he is some expert on how it will effect everyone else. After all, it made me feel discouraged, so naturally, this is how it will make everyone feel.}

^{There are a couple of things that come to mind when I read this. First, the guy said he was discouraged because he couldn't live up to the standards being preached. Why? What were they preaching that he couldn't do? It would help if he would actually tell us what sins he was committing and why he couldn't stop? Was he addicted to drugs? Was he addicted to tobacco products? Was he an alcoholic? Was there a chemical dependency of some kind, or was he sin sick? Does he believe God's hand is short that he cannot deliver from sin? What exactly happened when he got away from this kind of preaching? Did he suddenly overcome the things he couldn't overcome before, or did he remain in them, but now he feels better about himself?}

^{The problem with this kind of letter is that it produces no facts to back up the conclusions. It only says that this guy felt a certain way, so everyone else feels the same way. I would love to ask this Pastor some questions, and then I could give a better response to the post. I have no idea what was being preached. I have no idea why he couldn't do what was preached. I have no idea if he is now free from those bondages.}

^{BTW, to Fez, Jesus can free us. He is more than able to free us from the bondage of sins that so easily beset us. Once I accepted this truth, I have felt free for the first time. I don't consider following God's Word bondage. I don't feel any yoke. I feel the yoke of bondage when I sin, and feel powerless to stop. I don't get upset with the preacher telling me I am in sin. I get angry with myself for giving in, and to the devil for tempting me, but I thank God for a preacher with the guts to be honest.}

Probably need to read the book Butero.

I was mistaken it wasn't a letter but a quote. Big difference would you agree?

A friend Mike responded to this quote this way...

The Spirit's power at work in us does, in fact, enable us to walk according to the will of God through the Word of God (Gal. 5:16 et al). However, we are no longer under the Law (Rom 6), or the "commandments of ordinances in decrees" (Eph. 2:11-22). The ethnic barriers are down and full access to God through the priesthood of every believer is our new reality in Jesus Christ. Furthermore, God has instituted a New Covenant - this is a really big deal. Some people don't seem to understand this distinction.. The reception of the Gospel satisfies the requirements of the Law and sets us free to live in a constant, love-relationship with the God of the universe.

Your thoughts?

God bless,

GE

[back2thebible]

It seems there is a sin you are unable to overcome, maybe you should try to find other men who have overcome the thing your ready to give up trying to overcome

I can tell you giving up trying to overcome it is not the answer

Sorry I don't understand. What is your question?

God bless,

GE

the poster said this:

I feel condemned with no power to overcome my lack of ability to obey. Over the last several months, I have found myself very spiritually depressed, to the point where I had no desire to even attend church. Pastors are so concerned about somehow preaching “too much grace” (as if that is possible) because they wrongly believe that type of preaching leads to antinomianism or licentiousness. But, I can testify that the opposite is actually true. I believe preaching only the law, and giving little to no gospel, actually leads to lawless living. When mainly law is preached, it leads to the realization that I can’t follow it, so I might as well quit trying. At least, that’s what has happened to me.

"lack of ability to obey" "I can't follow it" " I might as well quit trying"

"thats what happened to me"

what could the believer not obey?, what couldn't he follow?, quit trying what?

what sin or sins is this person talking about as he refers to the teaching leading to lawlessness

I can't guess, so I can't anwer

[GoldenEagle]

the poster said this:

I feel condemned with no power to overcome my lack of ability to obey. Over the last several months, I have found myself very spiritually depressed, to the point where I had no desire to even attend church. Pastors are so concerned about somehow preaching “too much grace” (as if that is possible) because they wrongly believe that type of preaching leads to antinomianism or licentiousness. But, I can testify that the opposite is actually true. I believe preaching only the law, and giving little to no gospel, actually leads to lawless living. When mainly law is preached, it leads to the realization that I can’t follow it, so I might as well quit trying. At least, that’s what has happened to me.

"lack of ability to obey" "I can't follow it" " I might as well quit trying"

"thats what happened to me"

what could the believer not obey?, what couldn't he follow?, quit trying what?

what sin or sins is this person talking about as he refers to the teaching leading to lawlessness

I can't guess, so I can't anwer

I haven't read the book yet Back2TheBible. I can guess. Why can't you? I can only say what I would imagine he meant... Kind of like looking at a picture or painting. How does it make me feel? What does it mean to me?

I believe the author (Tullian) was speaking in general terms. Nobody can fullfill the whole law {Levitical/Mosaic} as we are all human beings and fallen in nature (imperfect).

None of us can fullfill the law and therefore "lack the ability to obey" the law in our own strength. Even as Christians we will not be perfect.

Regarding "I can't follow it"... I don't think anyone can follow the law perfectly 100% of the time.

Sometimes the attitude people develope is "I might as well quit trying." The Law cannot be fullfilled as we all fall short of God's standard - perfection. So we must rely on God as our strength and not on our own strength. Yet the Good News is God's grace is sufficient enough through Jesus Christ as we are saved by grace and not our own strength (works). God will never love us anymore for what we as Christians do. God will never love us any less for what we as Christians do. His love is constant and never changes.

What do you think it means? How do you interpret it?

God bless,

GE

[Qnts2]

the poster said this:

I feel condemned with no power to overcome my lack of ability to obey. Over the last several months, I have found myself very spiritually depressed, to the point where I had no desire to even attend church. Pastors are so concerned about somehow preaching “too much grace” (as if that is possible) because they wrongly believe that type of preaching leads to antinomianism or licentiousness. But, I can testify that the opposite is actually true. I believe preaching only the law, and giving little to no gospel, actually leads to lawless living. When mainly law is preached, it leads to the realization that I can’t follow it, so I might as well quit trying. At least, that’s what has happened to me.

"lack of ability to obey" "I can't follow it" " I might as well quit trying"

"thats what happened to me"

what could the believer not obey?, what couldn't he follow?, quit trying what?

what sin or sins is this person talking about as he refers to the teaching leading to lawlessness

I can't guess, so I can't anwer

I haven't read the book yet Back2TheBible. I can guess. Why can't you? I can only say what I would imagine he meant... Kind of like looking at a picture or painting. How does it make me feel? What does it mean to me?

I believe the author (Tullian) was speaking in general terms. Nobody can fullfill the whole law as we are all human beings and fallen in nature (imperfect).

None of us can fullfill the law and therefore "lack the ability to obey" the law in our own strength. Even as Christians we will not be perfect.

Regarding "I can't follow it"... I don't think anyone can follow the law perfectly 100% of the time.

Sometimes the attitude people develope is "I might as well quit trying." The Law cannot be fullfilled as we all fall short of God's standard - perfection. So we must rely on God as our strength and not on our own strength. Yet the Good News is God's grace is sufficient enough through Jesus Christ as we are saved by grace and not our own strength (works). God will never love us anymore for what we as Christians do. God will never love us any less for what we as Christians do. His love is constant and never changes.

What do you think it means? How do you interpret it?

God bless,

GE

I am also curious on this. What do you mean by the 'whole law'? Do you mean the Mosaic law?

[GoldenEagle]

I am also curious on this. What do you mean by the 'whole law'? Do you mean the Mosaic law?

By the "whole law" I was thinking Mosaic and Levitical law yes.

The whole idea that one must work in order to obtain or keep salvation.

[Qnts2]

I am also curious on this. What do you mean by the 'whole law'? Do you mean the Mosaic law?

By the "whole law" I was thinking Mosaic and Levitical law yes.

The whole idea that one must work in order to obtain or keep salvation.

Ok. Just FYI- I just use the term Mosaic law, which to me includes the Levitical law.

I don't know too many Christians who try to keep the Mosaic laws. I do see a separate set of laws that Christians have set up. Most will not say that they are to obtain salvation but some will say they are to keep salvation, or to please God.

[GoldenEagle]

Ok. Just FYI- I just use the term Mosaic law, which to me includes the Levitical law.

I don't know too many Christians who try to keep the Mosaic laws. I do see a separate set of laws that Christians have set up. Most will not say that they are to obtain salvation but some will say they are to keep salvation , or to please God.

Interesting. Gotcha. I agree.

What are some examples of the things people do to keep salvation or to please God?

[Qnts2]

Ok. Just FYI- I just use the term Mosaic law, which to me includes the Levitical law.

I don't know too many Christians who try to keep the Mosaic laws. I do see a separate set of laws that Christians have set up. Most will not say that they are to obtain salvation but some will say they are to keep salvation , or to please God.

Interesting. Gotcha. I agree.

What are some examples of the things people do to keep salvation or to please God?

Right now, some which come to mind are:

1. Dressing up for church services

2. A requirement to attend church services

3. Saying pot blessing rather then pot luck

4. Voting Republican

5. Every time they sin, they must repent or lose their salvation (heard this from a sermon by a pastors wife)

6. Obeying the Pastor (touch not Gods annointed, or being unteachable)

7. Tithing or giving

There are probably better examples which I will hopefully think of later. .

[Qnts2]

Right now, some which come to mind are:

1. Dressing up for church services

2. A requirement to attend church services

3. Saying pot blessing rather then pot luck

4. Voting Republican

5. Every time they sin, they must repent or lose their salvation (heard this from a sermon by a pastors wife)

6. Obeying the Pastor (touch not Gods annointed, or being unteachable)

7. Tithing or giving

There are probably better examples which I will hopefully think of later. .

Please clarify this. Are these things that are good, or things that you see as harmful? Because a very good case for 2, 5, and 7 can be made, scripturally, for them being things that Christians should do. Not to keep salvation, but because there are clear scripturally directives to do so.

I don't want to get into the argument concerning these things, as there is a lot of disagreement. I actually tried to avoid the more contentious issues.

1. Dressing up for church services

2. A requirement to attend church services

3. Saying pot blessing rather then pot luck

4. Voting Republican

5. Every time they sin, they must repent or lose their salvation (heard this from a sermon by a pastors wife)

6. Obeying the Pastor (touch not Gods annointed, or being unteachable)

7. Tithing or giving

Let's take number 7. I included both Tithing and giving as I believe all Christians would agree with either Tithing or giving, one or the other or both.

What makes it a Christian law? The way it is presented, if a person is not doing it sufficiently.

a. you are cheating God

b. you will not receive blessings

c. you might be sick or insufficient funds or other negative issues due to the failure

d. you can not be a member of the church unless you tithe/give.

That makes tithing/giving a law, with punishment for not complying. Since the law and the related 'punishments' are not part of the Mosaic law, that makes them a Christian law.

If you would like to discuss number 5, that should be in another thread, and I would be happy to express why I see an issue, but as a newbie, I am limited on certain things.

Edited March 19, 2013 by Qnts2