Molinism

[Guest]

.... God is still the one in control not the human as God has to actualize the world for the human to exist in the first place.....

So You

And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day. Genesis 1:31

Are Now A

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. John 1:1-3

Bible Believer Too?

And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful. Revelation 21:1-5

[ByFaithAlone]

.... God is still the one in control not the human as God has to actualize the world for the human to exist in the first place.....

So You

And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day. Genesis 1:31

Are Now A

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. John 1:1-3

Bible Believer Too?

And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful. Revelation 21:1-5

I have been for a while now Joe but thanks for noticing. I just view the theology differently then you do perhaps.

[OneLight]

.... God is still the one in control not the human as God has to actualize the world for the human to exist in the first place.....

So You

And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day. Genesis 1:31

Are Now A

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. John 1:1-3

Bible Believer Too?

And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful. Revelation 21:1-5

I have been for a while now Joe but thanks for noticing. I just view the theology differently then you do perhaps.

I am curious, what happened to change you?

[xero]

I didnt contradict myself.

God decreed a penalty for disobedience which is death so even in disobedience we still serve His will. By God issuing a penalty He let His will be known. Its not free will when theres a binding agreement to obey or face the penalty for disobedience.

Thats all irrelevant because God declared the end from the beginning which precludes the fall of man.

God said man would fall and He would redeem him before man was created.

Where is there free will when the end result was declared from the beginning?

Im telling you that before time existed the end result of time was already known to God because its His will that it be so.

If we say there is a free will then we must admit its Gods will alone.

[OneLight]

I didnt contradict myself.

God decreed a penalty for disobedience which is death so even in disobedience we still serve His will. By God issuing a penalty He let His will be known. Its not free will when theres a binding agreement to obey or face the penalty for disobedience.

Thats all irrelevant because God declared the end from the beginning which precludes the fall of man.

God said man would fall and He would redeem him before man was created.

Where is there free will when the end result was declared from the beginning?

Im telling you that before time existed the end result of time was already known to God because its His will that it be so.

If we say there is a free will then we must admit its Gods will alone.

Hmmmm ... try this, the next time you have to make a decision, don't. Sit there and wait until you hear God tells you what to do. Wait, by not making a decision, well, that would be making a decision, wouldn't it?

Just as stupid as what I just said is, so is the idea that we don't have to ability to make choices, which is free will.

[enoob57]

As the reality sourced - metaphysical realities undefined... we simple cannot find other than a forced reason of thought to fit Molinism to plausibility!

We are currently in the infinite 'no doubt about it'... yet reason generated for conclusion of non-combining truths may in fact themself be in error... Love, Steven

[xero]

Hmmmm ... try this, the next time you have to make a decision, don't. Sit there and wait until you hear God tells you what to do. Wait, by not making a decision, well, that would be making a decision, wouldn't it?

Just as stupid as what I just said is, so is the idea that we don't have to ability to make choices, which is free will.

I was deciding what to respond to your comment and so I stopped and waited to hear from God and heres what I got:

Galatians 6:6 "Let him that is taught in the word communicate unto him that teacheth in all good things. 7Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. 8For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting. 9And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not. 10As we have therefore opportunity, let us do good unto all men, especially unto them who are of the household of faith."

This is the will of God:

John 6:40 "And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day."

Man doesnt choose Gods mercy:

Romans 9:16 "So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy."

God will have mercy on whom He will have mercy so we cant deny God being absolute because of a moral dilemma with the ramifications of God; nor is it justifiable to claim; God is unfair in His judgement, when He paid the penalty of our disobedience for us.

If God had given us free will there wouldnt be salvation because we freely chose to eat the fruit knowing that the penalty was death ergo we chose to die. Salvation would violate free will.

[Guest]

Free Will

Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.

But whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him?

My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth. 1 John 3:16-18

And The Joy Of Fellowship

Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up, Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil;

Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth; Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.

Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. 1 Corinthians 13:4-8

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....If God had given us free will there wouldn't be salvation because we freely chose to eat the fruit knowing that the penalty was death ergo we chose to die. Salvation would violate free will....

I Say~! That Was Said So Nice And So Iffy

Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. Colossians 2:8

For Only Jesus Christ Can Make One Spiffy

Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. John 14:6

Salvation Is A Holy Gift So Nifty

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. Ephesians 2:8-9

Given To Whomsoever Will, No Tizzy

I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star. And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely. Revelation 22:16-17

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As I See It

Management Takes No Responsibility

For Spurious Poetry And Highjacked Threads And Such You See

Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised;)

And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:

Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is;

but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching. Hebrews 10:23-25

However A Closer Look At The Very Nature Of Our LORD Our God The Almighty

For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings. Hosea 6:6

And A Child's Simple Trust In His Words

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. John 3:16

Is Always Encouraged

And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient, 2 Timothy 2:24

As I See It

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Be Blessed Beloved Of The KING

The LORD bless thee, and keep thee:

The LORD make his face shine upon thee, and be gracious unto thee:

The LORD lift up his countenance upon thee, and give thee peace.

And they shall put my name upon the children of Israel; and I will bless them. Numbers 6:24-27

Love, Your Brother Joe

[Guest]

.... I don't see any other way of making it work that we have real choices, and God knows all of our choices at all times, is completely sovereign, and so on....

Yes, Yes I See

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. John 3:16

[ByFaithAlone]

I have been for a while now Joe but thanks for noticing. I just view the theology differently then you do perhaps.

I am curious, what happened to change you?

In regards to Christianity? I grew up a Christian but had a crisis of faith during my early teenage years. I turned back to Christianity after exploring various arguments of God's existence (cosmological, teleological, modal ontological, objective moral, etc.) and talking with many Christians that did not have the (in my opinion) closeminded view that modern science (evolution, big bang, etc.) are incompatible with God. So in short, logic, science and philosophy brought me back to God.

I didnt contradict myself.

God decreed a penalty for disobedience which is death so even in disobedience we still serve His will. By God issuing a penalty He let His will be known. Its not free will when theres a binding agreement to obey or face the penalty for disobedience.

In this case, you were phrasing your argument badly and I would like to just ask one question before trying to clarify the Molinist position. Are you a hard determinist? If you are, then there is nothing called disobedience as in hard determinism, you would always be obeying what is determined to be true. It also raises serious issues for the justness of God as God would be punishing us for something we had no freedom to choose to go against. This presents a serious stumbling block to your position.

On the other hand, Molinism is the idea that God is completely sovereign by knowing what free creatures would do in any possible situation and any possible world. It does not get rid of freedom but still allows for sovereignty.