Molinism

[childeye]

are you saying we were ignorant of the awesome, grand and lavish unconditional love of God?

No, I'm saying they took HIM as God's attirbutes in us for granted, and thought it was themselves and were unthankful. They were carnal not spiritually minded. Well here is how Paul put it.

Romans 1:21-22

New King James Version (NKJV)

²¹ because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. ²² Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

[childeye]

Is There A Difference Between The Ignorant

The LORD maketh poor, and maketh rich: he bringeth low, and lifteth up. He raiseth up the poor out of the dust, and lifteth up the beggar from the dunghill, to set them among princes, and to make them inherit the throne of glory: for the pillars of the earth are the LORD's, and he hath set the world upon them. He will keep the feet of his saints, and the wicked shall be silent in darkness; for by strength shall no man prevail. 1 Samuel 2:7-9

And The Willfully Ignorant

And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible. Isaiah 13:11

Hum....

Likewise, ye younger, submit yourselves unto the elder. Yea, all of you be subject one to another, and be clothed with humility: for God resisteth the proud, and giveth grace to the humble. 1 Peter 5:5

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What were we ignorant of?

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Man's Will

For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God. Romans 10:3

Or God's Will

For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth. Romans 10:4

Man's Work Fails The Mark

For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them. Romans 10:5

While The LORD's Work IS The Mark

But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above:) Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.) Romans 10:6-7

And A Fellow Will Either Give God The Glory Glory Glory

But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach; That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Romans 10:8-10

Or A Fellow Will Live

Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.

I have declared, and have saved, and I have shewed, when there was no strange god among you: therefore ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, that I am God. Yea, before the day was I am he; and there is none that can deliver out of my hand: I will work, and who shall let it? Isaiah 43:10-13

To Steal It

For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God. Romans 10:3

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In My Experience A Man's Belief In Jesus

So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. Romans 10:17

Is Directly Related To A Man's Will To Believe In Jesus Christ

The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand. He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. John 3:35-36

And The Strength Of A Man's Will To Believe In Jesus Is Directly Related To The Food

And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God. Luke 4:4

A Man Will Eat

Thy words were found, and I did eat them; and thy word was unto me the joy and rejoicing of mine heart: for I am called by thy name, O LORD God of hosts. Jeremiah 15:16

You See

O taste and see that the LORD is good: blessed is the man that trusteth in him. Psalms 34:8

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Be Blessed Beloved Of The KING

The LORD bless thee, and keep thee:

The LORD make his face shine upon thee, and be gracious unto thee:

The LORD lift up his countenance upon thee, and give thee peace.

And they shall put my name upon the children of Israel; and I will bless them. Numbers 6:24-27

Love, Your Brother Joe

WOW, great post. Amen.

[childeye]

i understand. it is of course within your purview to discern that our ability to choose between fellowship with God or against it as, thankless.

but then that is only because it would mean you have to admit that we did this to ourselves.

and that is perfectly OK.

I just caught something else here. You say, " it is of course within your purview to discern that our ability to choose between fellowship with God or against it as, thankless". I wish to correct something here. I only discern the ability to to choose against fellowship with God as thankless.

[BlessedByTheBest]

Aah i see, thank you for clarifying that for me.

childeye, as for your previous statements I cannot agree.

My interpretation of perfected sinless man able to walk with and see God face to face, just does not allow for carnality as we understand it.

I believe it goes much deeper than this.

I don't think we can imagine the gravity of the temptation to obtain knowledge of that which was forbidden, unless experiencing what it was like being the woman who had the honor of becoming the mother of multitudes, and the man given the grace to name the animals of the field.

Somehow, some way, they believed it was justifiable to disobey the trust of their Father.

And the moral of that story is, disobedience.

The glory of the Son, is perfect obedience.

This lesson is paramount.

So while forgiveness and mercy may certainly be the higher ground to perceive sin from..man was still cursed to till the soil by the sweat of his brow, and the pain of child-birth serves as a reminder for the temptress.

Jesus Christ rebuked Peter in perfect love, to his benefit.

Love to you.

[childeye]

childeye, as for your previous statements I cannot agree.

But herein is a problem. What is there that can be disagreed with that you have understood properly? Don't get me wrong. But I say that I believe what I am saying is the Truth of the holy Spirit. If you disagree, then either I am in need of correction or you are, or the third and most likely reason, is there is misunderstanding. Certainly those who serve Love care to instruct. Those who know the Truth would be able to dispell the lies. As I see nothing wrong with learning nor do I see anything wrong with teaching. But when someone says they don't agree about the simplist of truths I am believing, then there is cause for concern.

My interpretation of perfected sinless man able to walk with and see God face to face, just does not allow for carnality as we understand it.

Neither does mine. Hence blame and guilt must be cleansed away.

I believe it goes much deeper than this.

I don't think we can imagine the gravity of the temptation to obtain knowledge of that which was forbidden, unless experiencing what it was like being the woman who had the honor of becoming the mother of multitudes, and the man given the grace to name the animals of the field.

But we do imagine the gravity of the temptation every time we discuss the issue of responsibility and subsequently freewill. Adam and Eve are indeed unique, nor are they us. But I suspect we are probably more alike than not. Temptation is nothing foreign to me. Disobedience is nothing foreign to me. I can see my mistakes with God's loving guidance. I can see that temptations are based upon the lies of the temptor. Those who would think I am seeking to escape responsibility by blaming Satan or Adam or the woman are believing a lie themselves, And the spirit of that lie will cause division. For I am not seeking to escape responsibility, I am trying to act responsibly. For God blamed Satan also and scripture identifies Satan as the temptor. Is it the responsible thing to do, to now conclude via freewill theology that we disobey God simply because we can?

But, for the sake of blame and in the name of responsibility, they will say, you have the power to say no to the temptor and that is what we are saying. I will say, but the idea is to expose the lie on which the temptor arouses temptation. And for this we need the Holy Spirit of Truth. We must see through the devices of the devil so as to extinguish temptation and for this we need Godly wisdom. I therefore disagree that God tests us, or tempts us. He will not be tempted, nor does He tempt anyone. In fact He supplies the way to escape temptation. They will then say, but we can reject the Holy Spirit. What kind of hypocrisy is this defense of freewill? On one side of the brain they began by saying we can say no to the temptor and on the other side of the brain they are saying we can say no to the One who makes a way out of temptation. Sounds like vanity to me. It's like watching a man fall down and smack his face and say,"I meant to do it".

Somehow, some way, they believed it was justifiable to disobey the trust of their Father.

That is for certain. In fact if we are to understand anything about ourselves and why we disobey, we must ascertain the errant line of reasoning that prompted disobedience.

And the moral of that story is, disobedience.

The glory of the Son, is perfect obedience.

I don't come away with these same morals. But I also may not see what you see. It is not just about obedience and disobedience as pertains to a man establishing his own righteousness. To me it is about proper esteem of God which requires knowing Him personally.

This lesson is paramount.

I disagree in part. Certainly obedience to God is a desired result. But how can one have obedience to God when people in the highest authority under God, crucify God thinking they are serving God? If they could falter so badly, what makes us think we can do better via freewill?

I hope you respond and trust that I mean no harm. A child saw his sibling whipped and he ran and hid his face and covered his ears. Later when the trauma had abated, he went unto the elders who had dispensed justice and asked, "Why is bad happening?" The elders said, "Because God gave mankind a freewill to obey or disobey God." Then the child asked, "Why would anyone want to disobey God?" And the elders replied, "because they have a freewill".

[Fez]

This subject has been beaten to death now. As far as I can see every member with the exception of one have agreed in one way or another that we have a free will.

It's time to move on to something that bears fruit.