Molinism

[childeye]

Jesus said, "Forgive them they know not what they do". Respectively, how do you reconcile this with what you believe?

Luke 23:28-38 28 Jesus turned and said to them, "Daughters of Jerusalem, do not weep for me; weep for yourselves and for your children. 29 For the time will come when you will say, 'Blessed are the barren women, the wombs that never bore and the breasts that never nursed!' 30 Then " 'they will say to the mountains, "Fall on us!" and to the hills, "Cover us!" ' 31 For if men do these things when the tree is green, what will happen when it is dry?" 32 Two other men, both criminals, were also led out with him to be executed. 33 When they came to the place called the Skull, there they crucified him, along with the criminals--one on his right, the other on his left. 34 Jesus said, "Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing." And they divided up his clothes by casting lots. 35 The people stood watching, and the rulers even sneered at him. They said, "He saved others; let him save himself if he is the Christ of God, the Chosen One." 36 The soldiers also came up and mocked him. They offered him wine vinegar 37 and said, "If you are the king of the Jews, save yourself." 38 There was a written notice above him, which read: THIS IS THE KING OF THE JEWS.

Context. Jesus said this for a very specific reason. Because they did not know who He was or why He was being killed, in reality. They were not responsible for that. If taken to it's extreme, one could say they were not responsible for the sin of His death because that was what He came to earth for in the first place. That scripture cannot be used as a proof text that no one is responsible for sin of any kind, because it is not addressing that. As Onelight said, if it means what you say it means, then there would have been no reason for Jesus to die in the first place. If sin is beyond one's control and they cannot then be held accountable for it, there is no need for a Savior to redeem them from that sin. There would also be no need of final judgment, one way or another.

Are you a universalist?

I appreciate your forthright response and I sense no guile in you. I agree with you, they did not know what they were doing, even though they beat, stripped naked, reviled, whipped, tortured and murdered a man that had done no wrong. They were responsible because they did it, but they were excused because of ignorance. So has all sin begun in ignorance and so also is all deception built upon an ignorance.

You say, "if it means what you say it means, then there would have been no reason for Jesus to die in the first place". The problem with answering you forthrightly is an excercise in semantics. There would be no reason for Christ to die if men were not deceived and, if the devil was not self-serving. For Jesus did not die so I could get away with sin, but to show the Love of God that would give His life for ours in the face of a merciless and overzealous self-serving prosecutor.

Do I believe all men will be saved? It is God's place to choose to make vessels of flesh that hold the purifed as well as the dross that occurs during refinement. It is His place to form a mountain of flesh so as to stand as a testimony forever. He will have mercy where He will have mercy. But it is good in God's eyes, for me to hope and pray that all men be saved.

[childeye]

I think the truth behind your posts are coming to light.

If nobody was responsible for what they do, then Jesus would not of needed to die for our sins for we would not be held accountable for things we are not responsible for. Your theory has far too many holes in them to even begin to hold water. You cannot twist scripture to justify sin. There would also be no Great White Throne Judgment if nobody is responsible for their sins.

On the contrary, Scripture is explicit in saying Jesus came to destroy the works of Satan so as to destroy the accuser not to advocate for him.

Respectfully, accidents can happen and no one ever intended for them to happen and yet people are responsible. Insurance companies even have legal phrases called "acts of God". When several runners run a race, they finish from first to last and there is judgment but it is no one's fault some men are faster than others. Respectfully, it seems you are saying that all sinners including yourself, mean to sin with all our hearts, in opposition to scripture that says it is a condition of being ignorant. Hence Jesus said, the Truth will set you free from the slavery of sin.

It appears you like to twist words to bolster yourself above others. I have never once in my life ever states such a lie.

Meanwhile, I notice you did not even try to approach the subject about being held responsible for your actions. Do you believe that the Great White Throne Judgment, where Jesus will stand in judgment of sinners, is a not true? If you don't believe there will be one, why is it in scripture? If you do believe Jesus will judge everyone, what will he be judging them on if it is not their life's actions?

Peace, OneLight. I do not seek to demean you and myself along with you. Look at the record. You state: "You cannot twist scripture to justify sin". I take that to mean you are saying I am twisting scripture so as to justify sin. You are wrong in your application. Why could you not have considered that I am using scripture so as to advocate for forgiveness of sin? So shall we start over in good faith and godly Love for one another?

I sincerely don't know what you mean by not addressing your point about responsibility. I answered this: "Respectfully, accidents can happen and no one ever intended for them to happen and yet people are responsible".

[childeye]

I appreciate your forthright response and I sense no guile in you. I agree with you, they did not know what they were doing, even though they beat, stripped naked, reviled, whipped, tortured and murdered a man that had done no wrong. They were responsible because they did it, but they were excused because of ignorance. So has all sin begun in ignorance and so also is all deception built upon an ignorance.

You say, "if it means what you say it means, then there would have been no reason for Jesus to die in the first place". The problem with answering you forthrightly is an excercise in semantics. There would be no reason for Christ to die if men were not deceived and, if the devil was not self-serving. For Jesus did not die so I could get away with sin, but to show the Love of God that would give His life for ours in the face of a merciless and overzealous self-serving prosecutor.

Do I believe all men will be saved? It is God's place to choose to make vessels of flesh that hold the purifed as well as the dross that occurs during refinement. It is His place to form a mountain of flesh so as to stand as a testimony forever. He will have mercy where He will have mercy. But it is good in God's eyes, for me to hope and pray that all men be saved.

First off, Onelight has no guile either. Secondly, your statement that I bolded is patently false. A person about ready to have sex with a woman who is not his wife is not ignorant of what he is doing. He knows very well it is wrong and is not ignorant of the fact.

It was an easy statement to reply to, but you did not actually reply to it, and it would be you that is engaging in semantics and feints instead of simply saying what you both mean, and believe, because you seem to be saying that it is Satan who is responsible for sin, and not mankind. Satan tempted. He did not make the conscious choice to sin when it comes to mankind. He is responsible for his sin of rebelling against God, and man is responsible for choosing sin.

You didn't answer the question, so I will ask it again. Are you a Universalist? It is a simple "yes" or "no" question.

The statement I presented in bold, which you stated as falsehood, I still stand by it. Using your example, it is clear to me that the person ready to have sex with a woman who is not his wife is under the false impression he will be gaining something, otherwise there would be no temptation. That man would be carnally motivated wherein there is no true fulfillment. Knowing it is wrong will make no difference for him since without Godliness (a spiritual matter), we are vile.

Yes I am saying Satan is responsible for sin, which is to say that he is the father of sin. Jesus said exactly that. In fact that is where I learned it. Of course He tempted us; with a subtle lie placed upon the innocent and gullible. Yes it was a conscious decision by Satan to tempt mankind and it was a sin to do so.

I am a Christian. I do not believe in divisions in the body of Christ.

[enoob57]

Of course He tempted us; with a subtle lie placed upon the innocent and gullible. Yes it was a conscious decision by Satan to tempt mankind and it was a sin to do so.

This is incorrect according to Scripture

1 Tim 2:13-15

13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve. 14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression.

NKJV

Love, Steven

[OneLight]

I think the truth behind your posts are coming to light.

If nobody was responsible for what they do, then Jesus would not of needed to die for our sins for we would not be held accountable for things we are not responsible for. Your theory has far too many holes in them to even begin to hold water. You cannot twist scripture to justify sin. There would also be no Great White Throne Judgment if nobody is responsible for their sins.

On the contrary, Scripture is explicit in saying Jesus came to destroy the works of Satan so as to destroy the accuser not to advocate for him.

Respectfully, accidents can happen and no one ever intended for them to happen and yet people are responsible. Insurance companies even have legal phrases called "acts of God". When several runners run a race, they finish from first to last and there is judgment but it is no one's fault some men are faster than others. Respectfully, it seems you are saying that all sinners including yourself, mean to sin with all our hearts, in opposition to scripture that says it is a condition of being ignorant. Hence Jesus said, the Truth will set you free from the slavery of sin.

It appears you like to twist words to bolster yourself above others. I have never once in my life ever states such a lie.

Meanwhile, I notice you did not even try to approach the subject about being held responsible for your actions. Do you believe that the Great White Throne Judgment, where Jesus will stand in judgment of sinners, is a not true? If you don't believe there will be one, why is it in scripture? If you do believe Jesus will judge everyone, what will he be judging them on if it is not their life's actions?

Peace, OneLight. I do not seek to demean you and myself along with you. Look at the record. You state: "You cannot twist scripture to justify sin". I take that to mean you are saying I am twisting scripture so as to justify sin. You are wrong in your application. Why could you not have considered that I am using scripture so as to advocate for forgiveness of sin? So shall we start over in good faith and godly Love for one another?

It is plain to see that you claim people who sin do so out of ignorance, and that is not true. Even as a child we learn that we cannot steal or lie, but we choose to do so in certain circumstances mostly for selfish reasons. People do know when they are sinning. Why do you think the Holy Spirit came? One reason is to convict the world of sin. If there were no sin, then this would not be true. To me, when you claim that people do not sin outside of ignorance, you are indeed twisting what Christ said, for you quoted His words.

I sincerely don't know what you mean by not addressing your point about responsibility. I answered this: "Respectfully, accidents can happen and no one ever intended for them to happen and yet people are responsible".

No, that was a sidestep you want me to accept as an answer. Allow me to be direct in my questions and you can be direct in yoru answers.

1. Do you believe that the Great White Throne Judgment, where Jesus will stand in judgment of sinners, is a not true?
   
2. If you don't believe there will be one, why is it in scripture?
   
3. If you do believe Jesus will judge everyone, what will he be judging them on if it is not their life's actions?
   

[childeye]

I am forced to wonder who you believe Jesus is and why He came? Care to answer this to set things straight?

He is the saviour.

If you do not believe people are responsible for their sins, what is He saving them from?

Respectfully, I would rmind you that accidents can happen and people are responsible even though they did not intend to cause hurt. This is a fact, unless you wish to say that the measure you judge with has no such allowance. Therefore, I did not say men are not responsible for what they have done, I am saying they did not mean to do it. So I would say Jesus saves man by showing the worship causing divine Love of God, while at the same time defeating a merciless self-serving prosecutor with the power of death who was against us.

[enoob57]

Adam did mean to sin so pin pointed by Scripture!

[Guest]

.... Respectfully, I would remind you that accidents can happen and people are responsible even though they did not intend to cause hurt. This is a fact, unless you wish to say that the measure you judge with has no such allowance. Therefore, I did not say men are not responsible for what they have done, I am saying they did not mean to do it......

Beloved~! Respectfully Sin Is No Accident

Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.

Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

Do not err, my beloved brethren. Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning. James 1:13-17

And Still It Is True

But he that sinneth against me wrongeth his own soul: all they that hate me love death. Proverbs 8:36

Jesus Saves

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. John 3:16-18

Whosoever Will

And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely. Revelation 22:17

[childeye]

Of course He tempted us; with a subtle lie placed upon the innocent and gullible. Yes it was a conscious decision by Satan to tempt mankind and it was a sin to do so.

This is incorrect according to Scripture

1 Tim 2:13-15

13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve. 14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression.

NKJV

Love, Steven

Context Steven. Respectfully, the scripture you are using is about who should have authority over whom, between the man and the woman. The woman was deceived because it was her whom Satan beguiled. The man however, was convinced by the woman who had been deceived. This scripture therefore does not mean to imply that Adam knew what he was doing and purposefully slandered God while the woman did not purposefully do it. For the scripture would then be saying, that the one who knowingly meant to slander Who is Holy should have authority over the one that was deceived into doing it. That's like saying the criminal mind should have authority over the innocent mind.

[childeye]

I think the truth behind your posts are coming to light.

If nobody was responsible for what they do, then Jesus would not of needed to die for our sins for we would not be held accountable for things we are not responsible for. Your theory has far too many holes in them to even begin to hold water. You cannot twist scripture to justify sin. There would also be no Great White Throne Judgment if nobody is responsible for their sins.

On the contrary, Scripture is explicit in saying Jesus came to destroy the works of Satan so as to destroy the accuser not to advocate for him.

Respectfully, accidents can happen and no one ever intended for them to happen and yet people are responsible. Insurance companies even have legal phrases called "acts of God". When several runners run a race, they finish from first to last and there is judgment but it is no one's fault some men are faster than others. Respectfully, it seems you are saying that all sinners including yourself, mean to sin with all our hearts, in opposition to scripture that says it is a condition of being ignorant. Hence Jesus said, the Truth will set you free from the slavery of sin.

It appears you like to twist words to bolster yourself above others. I have never once in my life ever states such a lie.

Meanwhile, I notice you did not even try to approach the subject about being held responsible for your actions. Do you believe that the Great White Throne Judgment, where Jesus will stand in judgment of sinners, is a not true? If you don't believe there will be one, why is it in scripture? If you do believe Jesus will judge everyone, what will he be judging them on if it is not their life's actions?

Peace, OneLight. I do not seek to demean you and myself along with you. Look at the record. You state: "You cannot twist scripture to justify sin". I take that to mean you are saying I am twisting scripture so as to justify sin. You are wrong in your application. Why could you not have considered that I am using scripture so as to advocate for forgiveness of sin? So shall we start over in good faith and godly Love for one another?

It is plain to see that you claim people who sin do so out of ignorance, and that is not true. Even as a child we learn that we cannot steal or lie, but we choose to do so in certain circumstances mostly for selfish reasons. People do know when they are sinning. Why do you think the Holy Spirit came? One reason is to convict the world of sin. If there were no sin, then this would not be true. To me, when you claim that people do not sin outside of ignorance, you are indeed twisting what Christ said, for you quoted His words.

I sincerely don't know what you mean by not addressing your point about responsibility. I answered this: "Respectfully, accidents can happen and no one ever intended for them to happen and yet people are responsible".

No, that was a sidestep you want me to accept as an answer. Allow me to be direct in my questions and you can be direct in yoru answers.

1. Do you believe that the Great White Throne Judgment, where Jesus will stand in judgment of sinners, is a not true?
   
2. If you don't believe there will be one, why is it in scripture?
   
3. If you do believe Jesus will judge everyone, what will he be judging them on if it is not their life's actions?
   

Onelight I answered this already. Yes, there is judgment. See above about men running a race. They will be judged on their life actions, but also we know that men will be judged by what measure they use to judge others. Even so, Jesus said if you wish to escape judgment, don't judge.