Molinism

[childeye]

I think the truth behind your posts are coming to light.

If nobody was responsible for what they do, then Jesus would not of needed to die for our sins for we would not be held accountable for things we are not responsible for. Your theory has far too many holes in them to even begin to hold water. You cannot twist scripture to justify sin. There would also be no Great White Throne Judgment if nobody is responsible for their sins.

On the contrary, Scripture is explicit in saying Jesus came to destroy the works of Satan so as to destroy the accuser not to advocate for him.

Respectfully, accidents can happen and no one ever intended for them to happen and yet people are responsible. Insurance companies even have legal phrases called "acts of God". When several runners run a race, they finish from first to last and there is judgment but it is no one's fault some men are faster than others. Respectfully, it seems you are saying that all sinners including yourself, mean to sin with all our hearts, in opposition to scripture that says it is a condition of being ignorant. Hence Jesus said, the Truth will set you free from the slavery of sin.

It appears you like to twist words to bolster yourself above others. I have never once in my life ever states such a lie.

Meanwhile, I notice you did not even try to approach the subject about being held responsible for your actions. Do you believe that the Great White Throne Judgment, where Jesus will stand in judgment of sinners, is a not true? If you don't believe there will be one, why is it in scripture? If you do believe Jesus will judge everyone, what will he be judging them on if it is not their life's actions?

Peace, OneLight. I do not seek to demean you and myself along with you. Look at the record. You state: "You cannot twist scripture to justify sin". I take that to mean you are saying I am twisting scripture so as to justify sin. You are wrong in your application. Why could you not have considered that I am using scripture so as to advocate for forgiveness of sin? So shall we start over in good faith and godly Love for one another?

It is plain to see that you claim people who sin do so out of ignorance, and that is not true. Even as a child we learn that we cannot steal or lie, but we choose to do so in certain circumstances mostly for selfish reasons. People do know when they are sinning. Why do you think the Holy Spirit came? One reason is to convict the world of sin. If there were no sin, then this would not be true. To me, when you claim that people do not sin outside of ignorance, you are indeed twisting what Christ said, for you quoted His words.

I sincerely don't know what you mean by not addressing your point about responsibility. I answered this: "Respectfully, accidents can happen and no one ever intended for them to happen and yet people are responsible".

No, that was a sidestep you want me to accept as an answer. Allow me to be direct in my questions and you can be direct in yoru answers.

1. Do you believe that the Great White Throne Judgment, where Jesus will stand in judgment of sinners, is a not true?
   
2. If you don't believe there will be one, why is it in scripture?
   
3. If you do believe Jesus will judge everyone, what will he be judging them on if it is not their life's actions?
   

Onelight I answered this already. Yes, there is judgment. See above about men running a race. They will be judged on their life actions, but also we know that men will be judged by what measure they use to judge others. Even so, Jesus said if you wish to escape judgment, don't judge.

Jesus said "Do not judge according to appearance, but judge with righteous judgment." Your statement usually comes from those who refuse to see their error when it is pointed out to them.

As for your understanding of what they will be judged for, here is scripture that does not agree with you at all.

Revelation 20:11-15

Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire

I fail to see where what I said disagrees with this scripture, particularly where you have underlined. Please note the record where I said, "They will be judged on their life actions". Same thing.

Apart from that I also quoted from the scripture Matthew 7: “Do not judge, or you too will be judged. ² For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you. I also believe this is true since how we judge others is an action in life.

[childeye]

No matter how you word it, man is responsible for his decisions, good or bad. It is against scripture to blame Satan for mans sins. Satan is accountable for himself, just as we are responsible for ourselves.

1 John 10

If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.

I never said man is not responsible for his actions. Read the record. Nor have I said we did not sin. Read the record.

[ByFaithAlone]

I have to clear something up. Saying that man has free will does not mean that he must therefore be responsible for his own salvation. Salvation can still be a gift to the saved. Predestination, etc (if you are worried about such things) can still be affirmed if one believes in free will. One would simply hold to a compatibilist view of free will in which free will and determinism can coexist. It seems like people are missing this and quoting verses which can easily be upheld by a compatibilist view in order to assert that humans do not have free will.

[childeye]

I am confused on childeye's responses. In some cases it seems like he doesn't believe in any type of free will and some times it appears that he does. To set the record right, I would like to ask directly.

Childeye, do you believe that

(a) free will does not exist (hard determinism),

(b) free will and determinism are compatible (note a compatibilist can still believe in predestination, God's sovereignty, etc)

© free will exists and is incompatible with determinism (libertarian free will)?

These are the three philosophical positions on free will although many positions can exist within each of them (such as Molinism and 5-point Calvinism within compatibilism). In which camp do you stand?

If you claim hard determinism, I would ask you, as Cobalt has asked before, to explain how you believe an all-loving God could condemn one for actions already determined by God. How do you reconcile this injustice?

Thanks for clearing this up.

I believe in a free will that is set free from sin by the Truth of the knowledge of God. I therefore also identify an enslaved will. Since righteousness is based upon faith that God is the Eternal Spirit of Love, He is therefore our righteousness and all godliness are His attributes seen and witnessed in those He has created. I see no reason why determinism would not be applicable here. Since He is our righteousness, we condemn ourselves when we fail to acknowledge this. There is no excuse for worshipping the creation above the Creator. This is an axiom where in Romans 1, Paul uses this self-evident truth to form a foundation in our reasoning upon which to show our crucial mistake. It is a profound ignorance that takes God for granted just as an ignorant child takes his parents for granted. A child will only fully appreciate this when they become full circle and experience the necessary longsuffering with their own children. It is also therefore incumbant upon us to have understanding and mercy upon our children because we know what it was like to be them. Therefore, however much we condemn others we condemn ourselves. But God does not wish to condemn anyone.

[childeye]

I am forced to wonder who you believe Jesus is and why He came? Care to answer this to set things straight?

He is the saviour.

If you do not believe people are responsible for their sins, what is He saving them from?

Respectfully, I would rmind you that accidents can happen and people are responsible even though they did not intend to cause hurt. This is a fact, unless you wish to say that the measure you judge with has no such allowance. Therefore, I did not say men are not responsible for what they have done, I am saying they did not mean to do it. So I would say Jesus saves man by showing the worship causing divine Love of God, while at the same time defeating a merciless self-serving prosecutor with the power of death who was against us.

Enough of platitudes. There are over 330 references to sin in the NT alone. Accidents are not sins, but accidents.

Respectfully, sin is a product of the flesh. That is not a platitude, it is reality. I see no sin that was not conceived in prideful flesh including condemning others for making the same mistakes. The merciful shall receive mercy. It's not a platitude if you live it. I said accidents can happen and in this i am refering to accidents. In the garden wherein Adam and Eve were duped into believing God was self-serving and a liar, It could happen to anyone. I am being merciful and understanding. This is what God desires and it is a Godly attribute, not a Satanic one.

[Guest]

Respectfully, sin is a product of the flesh. That is not a platitude, it is reality. I see no sin that was not conceived in prideful flesh including condemning others for making the same mistakes. The merciful shall receive mercy. It's not a platitude if you live it. I said accidents can happen and in this i am referring to accidents. In the garden wherein Adam and Eve were duped into believing God was self-serving and a liar, It could happen to anyone. I am being merciful and understanding. This is what God desires and it is a Godly attribute, not a Satanic one.

Eve Was Duped

And the LORD God said unto the woman, What is this that thou hast done? And the woman said, The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat. Genesis 3:13

Adam Stood By And Watched And Then Ate

And the man said, The woman whom thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat. Genesis 3:12

Adam's Sin Was As Much A Premeditated "Accident" As His Son's Murder Was

And Cain talked with Abel his brother: and it came to pass, when they were in the field, that Cain rose up against Abel his brother, and slew him. And the LORD said unto Cain, Where is Abel thy brother? And he said, I know not: Am I my brother's keeper? Genesis 4:8-9

[xero]

I have to clear something up. Saying that man has free will does not mean that he must therefore be responsible for his own salvation. Salvation can still be a gift to the saved. Predestination, etc (if you are worried about such things) can still be affirmed if one believes in free will. One would simply hold to a compatibilist view of free will in which free will and determinism can coexist. It seems like people are missing this and quoting verses which can easily be upheld by a compatibilist view in order to assert that humans do not have free will.

Matthew 4:4 "But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God."

It doesnt get any clearer than:

"Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God."

Jesus is God saying you live by His every word. Jesus is the Word. Jesus is the Life. I couldnt make this stuff up if I tried.

How can you deny this?

You say these scriptures support free will but they dont. If God says you live because I say so how is that free will?

If we want to say there is free will then we must conclude it is Gods will alone that is free because Gods will is the only will that is true because God is the Truth and God said we live by every word that proceeds from His mouth and He is the Word and the Life and the Truth will set us free from sin to serve God in Truth.

Free will is compatible with God not man though. God presents a command determines the punishment pays the price and did all of it because He wanted to. Man is witness to Gods will.

[OneLight]

I am forced to wonder who you believe Jesus is and why He came? Care to answer this to set things straight?

He is the saviour.

If you do not believe people are responsible for their sins, what is He saving them from?

Respectfully, I would rmind you that accidents can happen and people are responsible even though they did not intend to cause hurt. This is a fact, unless you wish to say that the measure you judge with has no such allowance. Therefore, I did not say men are not responsible for what they have done, I am saying they did not mean to do it. So I would say Jesus saves man by showing the worship causing divine Love of God, while at the same time defeating a merciless self-serving prosecutor with the power of death who was against us.

Enough of platitudes. There are over 330 references to sin in the NT alone. Accidents are not sins, but accidents.

Respectfully, sin is a product of the flesh. That is not a platitude, it is reality. I see no sin that was not conceived in prideful flesh including condemning others for making the same mistakes. The merciful shall receive mercy. It's not a platitude if you live it. I said accidents can happen and in this i am refering to accidents. In the garden wherein Adam and Eve were duped into believing God was self-serving and a liar, It could happen to anyone. I am being merciful and understanding. This is what God desires and it is a Godly attribute, not a Satanic one.

The platitudes is how you are presenting your posts. You are not direct in most of what you post, leaving much to the reader to question. Sin is an act of disobedience. God makes not distinction between the number of times one sins to change it from an "accident" and "willful sinning", but you do.

What you are doing through your posts is removing the responsibility of the sinner because you see the sin as an accident, or being duped, or deceived, or misled. The fact is, they make the choice to commit the sin, plain and simple. As for calling false teach false teaching, yes, we are told to do just that.

This site is a ministry, not just another website created to discuss God. We do correct false teaching, and to claim people are not responsible for their sins is false teaching. To try an paint those who call out false teaching as not having a Godly attitude, but a Satanic one, is in fact doing the work of Satan himself as you falsely accuse the brethren.

[Mcgyver]

Hey childeye...

I've read through this thread 4 times now...and honestly, you've got me confused as to just what you believe, just what you are trying to say...and I'm looking at this thread with fresh eyes.

Now correct me it I'm wrong...but you seem to be saying that sin is (or can be) the result of ignorance.

Seems to me that the bible teaches that sin is the result of a willful disobedience before a Holy God. I don't see where ignorance comes into the equation. I've been around the world a couple of times, and everywhere I've gone folks have an understanding of "right and wrong".

Paul writes in Romans 2:14-15: for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them) (Emphasis mine)

And again in Romans 1:19-21: because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. (Emphasis mine)

So it seems to me that an inherent knowledge of God, and "right and wrong" is ingrained in the heart of every person who has ever lived...so ignorance is no excuse for sin.

The other thing that I'm confused about is your assertion that people will be judged on their "life choices". I am unclear as to what you mean here...

Once again it seems to me that the standard by which we will be judged (in the legal sense of "guilty" or "not guilty" for our sin) is based on what we have done with the salvation offered through Jesus Christ. That is to say whether we have accepted or rejected Jesus.

John 5:24 says: “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.

Romans 5:18 says: Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life.

So once again it appears to me that judgment isn't based on "life choices" (e.g.trying to be "good") but on the individual's relationship with Christ.

Can you clear these up for me? Do you agree or disagree?

Edited March 19, 2013 by Mcgyver

[childeye]

Eve Was Duped

True. Eve was duped into believing god was a liar through a subtle lie. And so she ate first and her eyes were open first.

Adam Stood By And Watched And Then Ate

Half true. Adam was convinced to eat by the woman who had been deceived but whose eyes had been open.

Genesis 3:17

New International Version (NIV)

¹⁷ To Adam he said, “Because you listened to your wife and ate fruit from the tree about which I commanded you, ‘You must not eat from it,’

“Cursed is the ground because of you;

through painful toil you will eat food from it

all the days of your life.

Adam's Sin Was As Much A Premeditated "Accident" As His Son's Murder Was

Respectfully, I must disagree. Adam was innocent without the knowledge of good and evil while in the garden of Eden. Cain however had inherited the condition of sinfulness wherein he felt a prideful jealousy against his brother that was ungodly. Moreover, trusting in my wife rather than myself is a lack of confidence, not to be equated with murdering someone. So respectfully, I must disagree. However, I understand why you have unwittingly conflated the two.

To summarize: Your point is that Adam's not believing God and counting god a liar was a premeditated willful act, while I am claiming it was an innocent mistake that could happen to anybody. But we know for certain that God Himself said in Genesis 3:17 that what Adam did wrong was he listened to his wife. So thankfully you are wrong about Adam, since God is not a liar. But it's okay that you are wrong, it's an innocent mistake that could happen to anyone.