Molinism

[childeye]

The platitudes is how you are presenting your posts. You are not direct in most of what you post, leaving much to the reader to question. Sin is an act of disobedience. God makes not distinction between the number of times one sins to change it from an "accident" and "willful sinning", but you do.

For the record, God did not want Adam to disobey Him for Adams's own good. I think that is clear to any child. However, when Adam was faced with the decision of who to trust, he lacked confidence in himself and listened to the woman. He knew better but waivered. His disobedience brought a sinful condition of carnal pride upon all mankind wherein we all have sinned. Therefore we all have sin and have sinned, not because we choose to.

Romans 5:12

New International Version (NIV)

¹² Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned—

Romans 7:14-17

New International Version (NIV)

¹⁴ We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. ¹⁵ I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate, I do. ¹⁶ And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. ¹⁷ As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me.

What you are doing through your posts is removing the responsibility of the sinner because you see the sin as an accident, or being duped, or deceived, or misled. The fact is, they make the choice to commit the sin, plain and simple. As for calling false teach false teaching, yes, we are told to do just that.

Yes I do mitigate a person's responsibility for having sin even as Jesus and Paul taught us to have mercy and understanding. Jesus called sin a sickness. No one chooses to be sick. If Jesus advocates for the sinners against the self-righteous, then so do I.

Matthew 9:10-13

New International Version (NIV)

¹⁰ While Jesus was having dinner at Matthew’s house, many tax collectors and sinners came and ate with him and his disciples. ¹¹ When the Pharisees saw this, they asked his disciples, “Why does your teacher eat with tax collectors and sinners?”

¹² On hearing this, Jesus said, “It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. ¹³ But go and learn what this means: ‘I desire mercy, not sacrifice.’^[a] For I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners

Titus 3:3

New International Version (NIV)

³ At one time we too were foolish, disobedient, deceived and enslaved by all kinds of passions and pleasures. We lived in malice and envy, being hated and hating one another.

This site is a ministry, not just another website created to discuss God. We do correct false teaching, and to claim people are not responsible for their sins is false teaching. To try an paint those who call out false teaching as not having a Godly attitude, but a Satanic one, is in fact doing the work of Satan himself as you falsely accuse the brethren.

How is it, because I consider sin a sickness as Jesus does, and because I believe sin is a condition inherent through Adam as Paul taught, that I am a false teacher?

[enoob57]

Adam did mean to sin so pin pointed by Scripture!

Who is pin? And show me the scripture.

I'm not the wall! It is that which borders you and has a door on one of its sides...

[childeye]

Of course He tempted us; with a subtle lie placed upon the innocent and gullible. Yes it was a conscious decision by Satan to tempt mankind and it was a sin to do so.

This is incorrect according to Scripture

1 Tim 2:13-15

13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve. 14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression.

NKJV

Love, Steven

Context Steven. Respectfully, the scripture you are using is about who should have authority over whom, between the man and the woman. The woman was deceived because it was her whom Satan beguiled. The man however, was convinced by the woman who had been deceived. This scripture therefore does not mean to imply that Adam knew what he was doing and purposefully slandered God while the woman did not purposefully do it. For the scripture would then be saying, that the one who knowingly meant to slander Who is Holy should have authority over the one that was deceived into doing it. That's like saying the criminal mind should have authority over the innocent mind.

Paul makes a statement Adam was not deceived... Adam ate the fruit he was told not to by God! Therefore I can say Adam sinned for well knowing His sin in doing so!

A hermeneutical principle- when the plain sense makes sense seek no other sense... now I turn you over to the wall you may argue with it awhile Love, Steven

Yes Adam was not deceived as the woman was is what Paul said. So what? Here's what God said, "Because you have listened to the voice of your wife and eaten of the tree".

Of course you can say what you want according to what you believe. Hence our hearts are revealed in our words. My concern for you is that you understand that what you think and say about this matter of sin is the same measure that will be used against you. What you say about Adam is what you say about yourself.

[Mcgyver]

Respectfully, I must disagree. Adam was innocent without the knowledge of good and evil while in the garden of Eden. Cain however had inherited the condition of sinfulness wherein he felt a prideful jealousy against his brother that was ungodly. Moreover, trusting in my wife rather than myself is a lack of confidence, not to be equated with murdering someone. So respectfully, I must disagree. However, I understand why you have unwittingly conflated the two.

To summarize: Your point is that Adam's not believing God and counting god a liar was a premeditated willful act, while I am claiming it was an innocent mistake that could happen to anybody. But we know for certain that God Himself said in Genesis 3:17 that what Adam did wrong was he listened to his wife. So thankfully you are wrong about Adam, since God is not a liar. But it's okay that you are wrong, it's an innocent mistake that could happen to anyone.

A couple of things that come to mind here...if you would care to elaborate...

First, although I agree that Adam had no knowledge of good and evil prior to eating the fruit, I would submit that innocence or lack of knowledge in this case is not a prerequisite for obedience. A soldier for example, may not understand the reason behind an order, but he understands that he must obey that order.

Adam was given an order, and though he may not have understood the reason behind the order, he obviously had the capacity to understand that he must obey.

Obviously, Adam knew the difference between obeying or disobeying God (though he may not have understood the consequence), else why would God tell Adam not to eat of the fruit in the first place?

Also, in your assertion that Adam's fault was that he listened to his wife is IMO only partially correct.

Genesis 3:17 states: Then to Adam He said, “Because you have heeded the voice of your wife, and have eaten from the tree of which I commanded you, saying, ‘You shall not eat of it’:

Because is a conjunction meaning "for the reason that" or "the fact that"...(For the fact that you listened to your wife)...and last time I looked, "and" is also a conjunction...and have eaten from the tree of which I commanded you, saying, ‘You shall not eat of it’:....

Adam's sin was not that he listened to his wife, Adam's sin was that he disobeyed God. I can't find anywhere in the scripture anything that says listening to one's wife is sin...but I can find all sorts of passages that say disobeying God is sin.

[OneLight]

How is it, because I consider sin a sickness as Jesus does, and because I believe sin is a condition inherent through Adam as Paul taught, that I am a false teacher?

Because what you believe you teach, and what you believe is not true. It is that simple. We all can advocate for our brothers and sisters, but our standing beside them does nothing for them unless they repent from the sins they have committed. Your line of thought is that they have not sinned, which is a lie. You cannot take an allegory and make it a fact. When Jesus used sickness as an example, that is what it was, an example to explain to people the meaning behind His words, not a fact as you put it. Nowhere does Jesus say that sin is a sickness.

[enoob57]

Of course He tempted us; with a subtle lie placed upon the innocent and gullible. Yes it was a conscious decision by Satan to tempt mankind and it was a sin to do so.

This is incorrect according to Scripture

1 Tim 2:13-15

13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve. 14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression.

NKJV

Love, Steven

Context Steven. Respectfully, the scripture you are using is about who should have authority over whom, between the man and the woman. The woman was deceived because it was her whom Satan beguiled. The man however, was convinced by the woman who had been deceived. This scripture therefore does not mean to imply that Adam knew what he was doing and purposefully slandered God while the woman did not purposefully do it. For the scripture would then be saying, that the one who knowingly meant to slander Who is Holy should have authority over the one that was deceived into doing it. That's like saying the criminal mind should have authority over the innocent mind.

Paul makes a statement Adam was not deceived... Adam ate the fruit he was told not to by God! Therefore I can say Adam sinned for well knowing His sin in doing so!

A hermeneutical principle- when the plain sense makes sense seek no other sense... now I turn you over to the wall you may argue with it awhile Love, Steven

Yes Adam was not deceived as the woman was is what Paul said. So what? Here's what God said, "Because you have listened to the voice of your wife and eaten of the tree".

Of course you can say what you want according to what you believe. Hence our hearts are revealed in our words. My concern for you is that you understand that what you think and say about this matter of sin is the same measure that will be used against you. What you say about Adam is what you say about yourself.

There is the error Childeye... I have read you since you when you first came on and that answers what I have not been able to determine!

You say one thing and then another as though you are seeing yourself as consistent but in fact all the children scratch their heads because of the

vacillating upon points! This is not a personal attack but fact- first you say Adam was deceived then when God's Word is plainly stating He was

not you say so what! Well the so what is what determines whether or not you are His or not! To make Jesus Lord is to make Jesus everything

within us and to drive out all else. His Word literally becomes our mind and and way and our desire forever etc...

You have stated where you believe you have a control of outcome by the judgment you use! Taken from here I am supposing

Matt 7:1-2

7 "Judge not, that you be not judged. 2 For with what judgment you judge, you will be judged;

and with the measure you use, it will be measured back to you.

NKJV

God is a Righteous Judge and His Standard 'IS' set eternally in His Person ***nothing can change that*** God's Word and God are One in the Same...

So as this perfect standard 'IS' God we either adjust to The Standard or we perish with the false standards.... as we are born imperfect and will judge

imperfectly so God's Word is fulfilled above with the measure you use so will be the measure we receive back.... 'You must be born again' and after God

leaves us in the old to learn to overcome the old and learn the whole relational why of God... this is how relationship with Him 'IS' built by knowing Him

through His Word and agreeing with His every way and doing! Therefore- if my existence is from His New Life put within me I will conform to His Standard

and there is complete agreement within me of Him and his Ways 'AS' The 'ONLY' way-> non manipulative<- and completely within His Person Forever!

The Father has said 'God 'IS' not mocked' and what 'IS' written is what will be done! Literally His Word 'IS' the Life in Him a foundation that cannot be

moved and all who lie down upon it in their being shall be saved... It shall be now and forever God our Center of Being and Purpose toward His Pleasure

our delight... Love, Steven

[childeye]

Hey childeye...

I've read through this thread 4 times now...and honestly, you've got me confused as to just what you believe, just what you are trying to say...and I'm looking at this thread with fresh eyes.

Now correct me it I'm wrong...but you seem to be saying that sin is (or can be) the result of ignorance.

Thank you for your well thought out response. Yes, I believe all sin is based upon an ignorance of Truth in some manner or degree. For I am certain that no sin can be based upon any sound Truth. Consequently, anyone who serves sin must be based believing some form of lie.

Seems to me that the bible teaches that sin is the result of a willful disobedience before a Holy God. I don't see where ignorance comes into the equation. I've been around the world a couple of times, and everywhere I've gone folks have an understanding of "right and wrong".

It stands to reason that a mind that is deceived would willfully do what it errantly perceives to be in his or her owns best interests. Of course there is a moral imperative that would require everyone to do what they think is right or wrong. But as is evident on this thread, not all always agree on what that is. Consequently there is division and wars in the world, both sides doing what they believe is right. That is why the Christ intrigued me, when I first heard of him. For this man did not fight for what was his God after the manner of other men, but instead accepted a cross of torture and forgave his assailants. Moreover his assailants were those who were both religious and secular authorities. Hence men who thought they were serving God, persecuted and murdered those who were serving God.

After following his teachings I have found a Truth that defeats all lies and has set me free. Therefore I can tell you there is a blindness wherein men walk in a hypocrisy wherein they do not see and that this blindness is the same ignorance or belief in lies that begets sin. I see a father of all lies in a powerful cunning creature called Satan, and I see that all lies end in hypocrisy.

Paul writes in Romans 2:14-15: for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them) (Emphasis mine)

And again in Romans 1:19-21: because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. (Emphasis mine)

So it seems to me that an inherent knowledge of God, and "right and wrong" is ingrained in the heart of every person who has ever lived...so ignorance is no excuse for sin.

I understand what you are getting at. If I may comment on these verses? The first Romans 2:14-15 is meant to point out that the Jews are no better than the gentiles when it comes to sin even though they have the law. But your application is correct in using it to point out that men have empathy, or a conscience.

The second scripture Romans 1:19-21, speaks of God's wrath and the reason for it. In short, it is saying that God is man's righteousness and the invisible attributes of godliness in mankind are there by virtue of our being made by God. Elsewhere in scripture it says that His Word through which He created us is the life and Light of man. But men were unthankful and thought they were wise rather than attributing wisdom to God. And so in this vanity based upon a lie, God was taken for granted and was imagined to be like a corruptible man and god was not esteemed as God. For there is no godliness in man apart from God, only carnal impulses. Further on in this passage this is proven because God gives men over to the lusts of their flesh to become abominations and they indeed do become abominations filled with vile passions and wicked selffish intent. So it is that here we see in the definitive, there is no excuse for worshipping the creation over the Creator. That is an axiom put forth by Paul so as to build an indisputabe foundation of reasoning to show the crucial mistake playing in the minds of men that is the source of God's wrath, our vanity, and our lustful sinful condition. It is not meant to condemn men as wantonly and knowingly trying to make God angry or that so we desire to become that which is vile.

The other thing that I'm confused about is your assertion that people will be judged on their "life choices". I am unclear as to what you mean here...

Once again it seems to me that the standard by which we will be judged (in the legal sense of "guilty" or "not guilty" for our sin) is based on what we have done with the salvation offered through Jesus Christ. That is to say whether we have accepted or rejected Jesus.

John 5:24 says: “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.

Romans 5:18 says: Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life.

So once again it appears to me that judgment isn't based on "life choices" (e.g.trying to be "good") but on the individual's relationship with Christ.

Can you clear these up for me? Do you agree or disagree?

This is what I will give you. I hope it clears things up. This is from a post I wrote:

Oh you beautiful and Loving people of God.

Thank you for all of your wonderful responses, full of insight and gifted wisdom. I think all of your answers are full of Truth. And before any thought that I am practicing flattery enters the air, I would like to show you why I say that you are all full of Truth and why I posed the two questions.

If you recall I had asked of what am I guilty of? And how does the blood of Jesus cleanse my conscience?

Both of these questions are closely related. For if I do not know what I did wrong there can be no sincere sorrow. There can be no getting right before God. For if He asked me what I am sorry for and I cannot tell Him, then I am still estranged and my apology is invalid. Nor is there any true repentance. It would be a simple thing to say I am sorry for ever disobeying God, but since I now am kicked out of the garden and face death, such an apology would be self-serving. So it is that I have seen that mankind while innocent in the Garden, did fall prey to Satan's cunning and subtle slander. And that in the very moment they considered that God was a god that would lie to us and keep us down so as to lift himself up, their hearts and minds were experiencing distrust for the very first time. And the Loving Image of our Loving and Holy Father was questioned as falsehood. And so we read in Romans 1 where men had traded the Truth for a lie and that when we knew God we did not esteem Him as God and likened Him to man, even though all that was good in us was His Spirit. We thought ourselves wise rather than thanking Him and in such vanity we became estranged from God. Now I know the very seed and root of the black thing that sits upon my conscience. I would beat myself to death if only I could take back the pain of betrayal that I had handed my Loving God who is Jealous for me. I do know what I am sorry for.

Now for the second question, How does the blood of Jesus cleanse my guilty conscience? How does someone elses paying for my sin make my guilt go away?

The answer is a bit more complex. If you recall, Jesus came to destroy the works of the devil which he first sowed in the Garden of Eden. He also came to destroy the enmity between man and God. For this is the work of the devil as can be seen in many scriptures such as Job. And in Revelations where it is said he makes accusation continually before God. But Satan is a liar and consequently a hypocrit. On one hand he tempts and on the other he accuses and like a bookie he plays both ends against the middle unto his profit while he demeans both man and God in Whose Image we are made.

Now some may not like what I say here, but I believe the law was a trap for Satan. For we know the law was administered by angels. As the guardian Cherub the devil could have the keys to hell and the power of death. So I believe he usurped the law to accuse and to tempt and that he is a self serving merciless legalist. He thinks men are to serve the law rather than the law serve men. But when the time was right, God sent His Word made flesh. And because Satan did not comprehend mercy, he did not see his own demise in crucifying this man according to the law. The scriptures that back this up are many. Satan entered into Judas, and the vineyard keepers saw the son and thought they could get his inheritance. Quite telling is that he nailed to the cross the ordinances that were against us and made a spectacle of Principalities and powers. But my favorite is in Revelations where it is said that Jesus was caught up to heaven and men overcame Satan by the blood of the lamb and by their testimony. What I mean to point out is that the cross was meant to defeat Satan and his works. And it was Satan being the guardian Cherub, who usurped the law to crucify the innocent, even the very son of God. I don't think he saw it coming when Jesus said, "forgive them Father for they know not what they do", and "My God, My God why have you forsaken me?" And after this was witnessed in heaven, war broke out in heaven and Satan was cast out. So it is that Satan was made a spectacle of and by his own hand he was shown to be a merciless self righteous overzealous prosecutor. Again my point is to say that the cross is what was Satan's demise.

Okay. Now when I first heard the Gospel (Christ crucified) I believed that I had seen a Love that transcended all that is comprehensible. And I wondered whether Jesus meant it when he said, "Forgive them Father for they know not what they do". It took me most of my life to finally believe it. For I saw that at the beginning of man's fall it was an innocent mankind that had been duped by a creature far more cunning. And I also found that as I believed this I began to forgive everyone for everything since to condemn anyone only meant that I myself was saying that Adam and Eve as well as myself meant to slander God on purpose, and therefore I was still believing the original lie that God was unholy. And that is how I was able to have a cleansed conscience. That is how we overcome Satan by the blood of Christ and by our testimony.

I say this because at the heart of all division, including on this forum, is Satan playing the ends against the middle. And it becomes apparrant in our theology when at the end of our reasoning we think we must blame either God or mankind for what happened, when in fact it was neither. It was simply Satan playing both ends against the middle. So I hope you see that all of you are right in whatever stage of belief you are in, and I am not patronizing any of you.

[Mcgyver]

Thank you, let me digest what you've written for a bit.

[childeye]

Respectfully, I must disagree. Adam was innocent without the knowledge of good and evil while in the garden of Eden. Cain however had inherited the condition of sinfulness wherein he felt a prideful jealousy against his brother that was ungodly. Moreover, trusting in my wife rather than myself is a lack of confidence, not to be equated with murdering someone. So respectfully, I must disagree. However, I understand why you have unwittingly conflated the two.

To summarize: Your point is that Adam's not believing God and counting god a liar was a premeditated willful act, while I am claiming it was an innocent mistake that could happen to anybody. But we know for certain that God Himself said in Genesis 3:17 that what Adam did wrong was he listened to his wife. So thankfully you are wrong about Adam, since God is not a liar. But it's okay that you are wrong, it's an innocent mistake that could happen to anyone.

A couple of things that come to mind here...if you would care to elaborate...

First, although I agree that Adam had no knowledge of good and evil prior to eating the fruit, I would submit that innocence or lack of knowledge in this case is not a prerequisite for obedience. A soldier for example, may not understand the reason behind an order, but he understands that he must obey that order.

Adam was given an order, and though he may not have understood the reason behind the order, he obviously had the capacity to understand that he must obey.

Obviously, Adam knew the difference between obeying or disobeying God (though he may not have understood the consequence), else why would God tell Adam not to eat of the fruit in the first place?

Also, in your assertion that Adam's fault was that he listened to his wife is IMO only partially correct.

Genesis 3:17 states: Then to Adam He said, “Because you have heeded the voice of your wife, and have eaten from the tree of which I commanded you, saying, ‘You shall not eat of it’:

Because is a conjunction meaning "for the reason that" or "the fact that"...(For the fact that you listened to your wife)...and last time I looked, "and" is also a conjunction...and have eaten from the tree of which I commanded you, saying, ‘You shall not eat of it’:....

Adam's sin was not that he listened to his wife, Adam's sin was that he disobeyed God. I can't find anywhere in the scripture anything that says listening to one's wife is sin...but I can find all sorts of passages that say disobeying God is sin.

You make great points. And you ask great questions. Let me address the issue of faith. When Adam was made all things were built upon faith, wherein God's intentions towrads us were never questioned and disobedience was never considered because of this. But after a doubt in God's intentions toward us was put forth by Satan for consideration, through a subtlety I might add, mankind who had never pondered a lie before, became unsure and malleable.

And of course you are right that Adam knew he was not suppose to eat of the fruit, but that was now befuddled by the fact that he was unsure of god's intentions. Personally I believe he was troubled by this. I imagine I would be. Therefore, I don't think he wanted to believe that God was lying to him. But I imagine the woman having eaten and now with eyes open was there prodding him to trust her was too much, and so I think he ate to find out whether it was true or not. I was not there but I as I am not sure I would have faired better than him, I feel safer in the humility of giving Adam the benefit of the doubt. Certainly Paul said he was afraid that the early church would fall victim to Satan's subtlety even as Eve did. He even said so. But I know I have found myself regretting many times my following my pride which has no legitimate excuse other than I was a fool.

[childeye]

Of course He tempted us; with a subtle lie placed upon the innocent and gullible. Yes it was a conscious decision by Satan to tempt mankind and it was a sin to do so.

This is incorrect according to Scripture

1 Tim 2:13-15

13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve. 14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression.

NKJV

Love, Steven

Context Steven. Respectfully, the scripture you are using is about who should have authority over whom, between the man and the woman. The woman was deceived because it was her whom Satan beguiled. The man however, was convinced by the woman who had been deceived. This scripture therefore does not mean to imply that Adam knew what he was doing and purposefully slandered God while the woman did not purposefully do it. For the scripture would then be saying, that the one who knowingly meant to slander Who is Holy should have authority over the one that was deceived into doing it. That's like saying the criminal mind should have authority over the innocent mind.

Paul makes a statement Adam was not deceived... Adam ate the fruit he was told not to by God! Therefore I can say Adam sinned for well knowing His sin in doing so!

A hermeneutical principle- when the plain sense makes sense seek no other sense... now I turn you over to the wall you may argue with it awhile Love, Steven

Yes Adam was not deceived as the woman was is what Paul said. So what? Here's what God said, "Because you have listened to the voice of your wife and eaten of the tree".

Of course you can say what you want according to what you believe. Hence our hearts are revealed in our words. My concern for you is that you understand that what you think and say about this matter of sin is the same measure that will be used against you. What you say about Adam is what you say about yourself.

There is the error Childeye... I have read you since you when you first came on and that answers what I have not been able to determine!

You say one thing and then another as though you are seeing yourself as consistent but in fact all the children scratch their heads because of the

vacillating upon points! This is not a personal attack but fact- first you say Adam was deceived then when God's Word is plainly stating He was

not you say so what! Well the so what is what determines whether or not you are His or not! To make Jesus Lord is to make Jesus everything

within us and to drive out all else. His Word literally becomes our mind and and way and our desire forever etc...

You have stated where you believe you have a control of outcome by the judgment you use! Taken from here I am supposing

Matt 7:1-2

7 "Judge not, that you be not judged. 2 For with what judgment you judge, you will be judged;

and with the measure you use, it will be measured back to you.

NKJV

God is a Righteous Judge and His Standard 'IS' set eternally in His Person ***nothing can change that*** God's Word and God are One in the Same...

So as this perfect standard 'IS' God we either adjust to The Standard or we perish with the false standards.... as we are born imperfect and will judge

imperfectly so God's Word is fulfilled above with the measure you use so will be the measure we receive back.... 'You must be born again' and after God

leaves us in the old to learn to overcome the old and learn the whole relational why of God... this is how relationship with Him 'IS' built by knowing Him

through His Word and agreeing with His every way and doing! Therefore- if my existence is from His New Life put within me I will conform to His Standard

and there is complete agreement within me of Him and his Ways 'AS' The 'ONLY' way-> non manipulative<- and completely within His Person Forever!

The Father has said 'God 'IS' not mocked' and what 'IS' written is what will be done! Literally His Word 'IS' the Life in Him a foundation that cannot be

moved and all who lie down upon it in their being shall be saved... It shall be now and forever God our Center of Being and Purpose toward His Pleasure

our delight... Love, Steven

Thanks for the response Steven and for your Love. I am sorry about the semantics. I am doing my best to not say Adam knowingly wanted to slander his Maker while admitting he made a mistake. Yes Adam was deceived as in he listened (trusted) to a woman who was deceived, in lieu of God the Maker of both of them. Is it wisdom for me to believe Adam knew what he was doing when he did this? I hope you read the last half of post 74.