Molinism

[BlessedByTheBest]

The doubt raised in the Word of God came about because Eve ate, and yet lived. Thus Adam had quite the conundrum.

God said they would surely die, and here is Adam's companion alive and well after partaking of the forbidden fruit. And so the doubt, and the wonder of what God truly meant by death overwhelmed him.

Perhaps God lied, he thought.. Perhaps he is withholding something from us..

Regardless, this qualifies as willful sin in my book, because whether they were subtly deceived or not, they still directly disobeyed God's command. Both of them.

No amount of deception or ignorance is an excuse, in a state of innocence, or in state of sin.

The circumstance or reasoning behind our intended actions or consequences that unfold through an accident are irrelevant to a Holy God whom has placed His commandments in our hearts.

The good news is that we can be forgiven.

[childeye]

Thank you, let me digest what you've written for a bit.

Here are some scriptures to back up my thoughts on post 74.

Well of course there is the original lie wherein we lost faith through:

Genesis 3:4-5. But I would point out that verse 1 one says the serpent was most cunning of all God's creation. I assume you all know Adam and Eve were innocent. I take this to mean mankinds wit was no match for Satan.

4 "You will not certainly die," the serpent said to the woman. 5 "For God knows that when you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil." Here Satan subtly implies god is a liar in verse 4. And in verse 5 he implies that god is only lying to keep us down and god knows we could be like him. What a subtle lie since we were already like him. Upon considering this lie we are already doubting Gods intentions toward us which is to lose faith in His righteousness Who is our righteousness.

Romans 1 verse 17. 17 For in the gospel the righteousness of God is revealed—a righteousness that is by faith from first to last,[a] just as it is written: "The righteous will live by faith."[b]

This means God will make known His righteousness which is by faith wherein before we had doubted and this doubt preceded our disobedience.

verse 18. 18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; Now here as Martin Luther taught, Paul is refering to all men. And we know this because in Romans 2:1 he says therefore no one has any excuse to judge for wherein you judge another you condemn yourself.

19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

Here we see that God is our goodness and this is what is meant by invisible things, our godliness which exists in us because He made us. Also see John 1 the Word was the light of man and the life of man. All that was created was created through the Word, he came into the world but the world knew him not.

21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

Here we see that when we knew him as in the past we did not esteem Him as God which reiterates above the godliness we take for granted since obviously we were unthankful.

22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

Here we see we thought wisdom belonged to us rather than attributing it to Him. Hence elsewhere in scripture it is said that God has confounded the wise and chose the lowly things so that God alone would be glorified and not men. Also scripture says that Christ has become wisdom to us.

23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. Here we see that men created their own image of god that was like corruptible man. That is like saying we still believed in the false image presented in the Garden of Eden that was corrupt as in a self-serving god.

Now the destruction of the devil:

Hebrews 2:

14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

1 John 3: 8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

Noe here we see that the devil has the power of death which I take to mean the keys to hell and death which Jesus took from satan after he had been in hell for three days and three nights. Revelations 1:18 18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

Collossians 2:

14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.

The law being nailed to the cross and spoiling principalities and powers.

Galatians 3: 19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

Mark 12:

12 And he began to speak unto them by parables. A certain man planted a vineyard, and set an hedge about it, and digged a place for the winefat, and built a tower, and let it out to husbandmen, and went into a far country.

2 And at the season he sent to the husbandmen a servant, that he might receive from the husbandmen of the fruit of the vineyard.

3 And they caught him, and beat him, and sent him away empty.

4 And again he sent unto them another servant; and at him they cast stones, and wounded him in the head, and sent him away shamefully handled.

5 And again he sent another; and him they killed, and many others; beating some, and killing some.

6 Having yet therefore one son, his wellbeloved, he sent him also last unto them, saying, They will reverence my son.

7 But those husbandmen said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and the inheritance shall be ours.'

8 And they took him, and killed him, and cast him out of the vineyard.

Revelation 12:

4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.

Luke 22:

2 And the chief priests and scribes sought how they might kill him; for they feared the people.

3 Then entered Satan into Judas surnamed Iscariot, being of the number of the twelve.

Revelation 12:

5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.

9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

Romans 2:1 Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.

Matthew 7:

7 Judge not, that ye be not judged.

2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?

4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?

5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.

Titus 1:15

King James Version (KJV)

15Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled.

[childeye]

The doubt raised in the Word of God came about because Eve ate, and yet lived. Thus Adam had quite the conundrum.

God said they would surely die, and here is Adam's companion alive and well after partaking of the forbidden fruit. And so the doubt, and the wonder of what God truly meant by death overwhelmed him.

Perhaps God lied, he thought.. Perhaps he is withholding something from us..

Regardless, this qualifies as willful sin in my book, because whether they were subtly deceived or not, they still directly disobeyed God's command. Both of them.

No amount of deception or ignorance is an excuse, in a state of innocence, or in state of sin.

The circumstance or reasoning behind our intended actions or consequences that unfold through an accident are irrelevant to a Holy God whom has placed His commandments in our hearts.

The good news is that we can be forgiven.

Respectfully, the doubt came about because of the serpent.

Only if we forgive therefore, will we be forgiven..

Matthew 6:12-15

New International Version (NIV)

¹² And forgive us our debts,

as we also have forgiven our debtors.

¹³ And lead us not into temptation,^[a]

but deliver us from the evil one.^[b]’

¹⁴ For if you forgive other people when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. ¹⁵ But if you do not forgive others their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.

John 9:41

New International Version (NIV)

⁴¹ Jesus said, “If you were blind, you would not be guilty of sin; but now that you claim you can see, your guilt remains.

Matthew 12:31

New International Version (NIV)

³¹ And so I tell you, every kind of sin and slander can be forgiven, but blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven.

[childeye]

I don't think you know what you believe. You first claim that sin was a product of ignorance. Now you have claimed it is actually because of a couple of other things. Accidents. Prideful flesh.

First, Thanks for your response. Secondly, Yes, sin is a product of ignorance. For he said the "Truth will set you free". Now maybe I'm stupid, but this means to me that a man is held captive to sin by a lie that they believe to be true.. .Jesus said,

³² Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.”

³³ They answered him, “We are Abraham’s descendants and have never been slaves of anyone. How can you say that we shall be set free?”

³⁴ Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, everyone who sins is a slave to sin.

Third, I never said sins were accidents. I was pointing out that people can be responsible for something and yet not do them knowingly or wantonly, which is where we had agreed concerning "forgive them , for they know not what they do".

1 Peter 1:14

¹⁴ As obedient children, do not conform to the evil desires you had when you lived in ignorance.

Ephesians 4:17-18

New International Version (NIV)

¹⁷ So I tell you this, and insist on it in the Lord, that you must no longer live as the Gentiles do, in the futility of their thinking. ¹⁸ They are darkened in their understanding and separated from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them due to the hardening of their hearts.

Third: yes all sin is a product of prideful flesh for the woman was told she would become like God. It was Cains pride that was behind his angst against his brother.

Isaiah 14:13

New International Version (NIV)

¹³ You said in your heart,

“I will ascend to the heavens;

I will raise my throne

above the stars of God;

I will sit enthroned on the mount of assembly,

on the utmost heights of Mount Zaphon.^[a]

Job 41:33-34

³³ Nothing on earth is its equal—

a creature without fear.

³⁴ It looks down on all that are haughty;

it is king over all that are proud.”

Romans 8:3

New International Version (NIV)

³ For what the law was powerless to do because it was weakened by the flesh,^[a] God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh to be a sin offering.^[b] And so he condemned sin in the flesh,

Romans 8:7

New International Version (NIV)

⁷ The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so.

Your response to my illustration of a man getting ready to have sex with a woman who is not his wife was extremely poor. Whatever he thinks he will get out of it is immaterial when viewed from the act's constituting a sin, or the conscious act of choosing to commit the sin. The person knows they are committing the sin, and they are willfully choosing to do so. It is no accident and the gain one thinks they will receive has nothing to do with it.

This doesn't make sense. Yes the person knows he is committing a sin and they willfully choose to do so. However, How is it immaterial to seek to understand why the person does this?

Sin did not enter the world through Satan. Scripture 100% refutes what you say:

Roman 5:12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned--

Paul clearly states that sin came into the world through man, not Satan. Satan tempted man to sin. Man made the decision to reject what God had told them not to do and do it anyway. It was not an accident. They were not ignorant of the fact that what they did was wrong. That is why they were ashamed.

They knew they were naked and that is why they were ashamed.

Genesis 3:10

New International Version (NIV)

¹⁰ He answered, “I heard you in the garden, and I was afraid because I was naked; so I hid.”

Sin did come from the devil.

John 8:

⁴² Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I have come here from God. I have not come on my own; God sent me. ⁴³ Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say. ⁴⁴ You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies.

1 John 3:7-10

New International Version (NIV)

⁷ Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. The one who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous. ⁸ The one who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil’s work. ⁹ No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God. ¹⁰ This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not God’s child, nor is anyone who does not love their brother and sister.

You may think you are being merciful and understanding, but that is kind of immaterial when you are pushing a doctrine that is both false and not supportable, biblically.

I will ask you again, for the third time: Are you a universalist?

Respectfully, to my knowledge everything I have said is supported by scripture unless it is an area where scripture is not specific. I told you I am a Christian. I have never read any universalist doctrine so I cannot comment on what a universalist believes.

[enoob57]

Thanks for the response Steven and for your Love. Yes Adam was deceived as in he listened (trusted) to a woman who was deceived, in lieu of God the Maker of both of them. Is it wisdom for me to believe Adam knew what he was doing when he did this? I hope you read the last half of post 74.

1 Tim 2:14-15

14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression.

NKJV

are you equivocating this on purpose -you saying he was and God saying he was not? Love, Steven

[childeye]

Thanks for the response Steven and for your Love. Yes Adam was deceived as in he listened (trusted) to a woman who was deceived, in lieu of God the Maker of both of them. Is it wisdom for me to believe Adam knew what he was doing when he did this? I hope you read the last half of post 74.

1 Tim 2:14-15

14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression.

NKJV

are you equivocating this on purpose -you saying he was and God saying he was not? Love, Steven

I said nothing about "he was God and he was not". Was Jesus equivocating when he said render unto Ceasar what is Ceasar's and render unto God what is God's?

I am drawing a distinction between how Eve was deceived and how Adam was deceived. I am trying to not say Adam knew what he was doing in trusting the woman who was deceived. For if I say he was not deceived, then you will most likely take that to mean that I believe Adam knew exactly what he was doing against both God and himself.

I already pointed out that you are taking Timothy 2:14 out of context. The criminal mind should not be in authority over the gullible. How do you not see what is common sense.?

[childeye]

Adam did mean to sin so pin pointed by Scripture!

Who is pin? And show me the scripture.

I'm not the wall! It is that which borders you and has a door on one of its sides...

I'm Sorry Steven, I do not understand what you are trying to tell me. Please rephrase. Scripture?

[childeye]

I have to clear something up. Saying that man has free will does not mean that he must therefore be responsible for his own salvation. Salvation can still be a gift to the saved. Predestination, etc (if you are worried about such things) can still be affirmed if one believes in free will. One would simply hold to a compatibilist view of free will in which free will and determinism can coexist. It seems like people are missing this and quoting verses which can easily be upheld by a compatibilist view in order to assert that humans do not have free will.

Matthew 4:4 "But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God."

It doesnt get any clearer than:

"Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God."

Jesus is God saying you live by His every word. Jesus is the Word. Jesus is the Life. I couldnt make this stuff up if I tried.

How can you deny this?

You say these scriptures support free will but they dont. If God says you live because I say so how is that free will?

If we want to say there is free will then we must conclude it is Gods will alone that is free because Gods will is the only will that is true because God is the Truth and God said we live by every word that proceeds from His mouth and He is the Word and the Life and the Truth will set us free from sin to serve God in Truth.

Free will is compatible with God not man though. God presents a command determines the punishment pays the price and did all of it because He wanted to. Man is witness to Gods will.

Yes there is no choice (option). If one wants to live he must submit by faith to the Word of God. However, there is a choice if one considers sin and death a choice (option). This is the problem with semantics. Please note the subtle lie that if a supposed moral "free" will only exists with the option to sin, then morality is based upon a humans ability to choose. But in a state of all faith sin would not even be an option. Sin therefore equals freewill under that errant form of reasoning.

[Guest]

The criminal mind.... common sense.....

Common Sense And The Law

And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. Genesis 2:16-17

And The Criminal Mind

And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life; Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field; In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return. Genesis 3:17-19

[childeye]

The criminal mind.... common sense.....

Common Sense And The Law

And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. Genesis 2:16-17

And The Criminal Mind

And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life; Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field; In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return. Genesis 3:17-19

I don't know if you have been following the thread, but the criminal mind and common sense comments are about Timothy 2: 14 and the context in which it is written.