Molinism

[Guest]

The criminal mind.... common sense.....

Common Sense And The Law

And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. Genesis 2:16-17

And The Criminal Mind

And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life; Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field; In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return. Genesis 3:17-19

I don't know if you have been following the thread, but the criminal mind and common sense comments are about Timothy 2: 14 and the context in which it is written.

Following

And As You Know

It's Now About Adam's Will-Full (Criminal) Sin

And The Absent Of Scriptures Stating His Was Just A Dupe Of Satan (As Some Might Assert)

Of these things put them in remembrance, charging them before the Lord that they strive not about words to no profit, but to the subverting of the hearers. Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness. 2 Timothy 2:14-16

In The Act That Lead To The Death Of His Descendents

For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 1 Corinthians 15:22

Including The LORD's

But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Romans 5:8

~

You See Dear Brother, In Context It's Still

And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.Genesis 3:15

About Jesus Christ And Him Crucified

Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

Love, Your Brother Joe

[childeye]

Following

And As You Know

It's Now About Adam's Will-Full (Criminal) Sin

And The Absent Of Scriptures Stating His Was Just A Dupe Of Satan (As Some Might Assert)

Thank you for your response and your Love. If you read the record, I was quite clear that Adam was not duped by Satan directly. I had pointed out that he listened to the woman who was duped. Hence I don't know to whom you are refering for I have seen no one assert what you are suggesting.

You See Dear Brother, In Context It's Still

Respectfully I must disagree. 1 Timothy 2:14 is about a man having authority over the woman.

1 Timothy 2:12-14

New International Version (NIV)

¹² I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man;^[a] she must be quiet. ¹³ For Adam was formed first, then Eve. ¹⁴ And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner.

[Guest]

Thank you for your response and your Love. If you read the record, I was quite clear that Adam was not duped by Satan directly. I had pointed out that he listened to the woman who was duped. Hence I don't know to whom you are refering for I have seen no one assert what you are suggesting.

Except For Adam's Blame Naming Game With God, I Still See No Verse Suggesting Adam's Sin Was Caused In Anyway By Eve

In Fact 1 Timothy 2:14 Could In Itself Lay All The Blame Upon Adam For Adam's Sin

Leaving Eve Only Her Lust Of The Eye And Resultant Sin To Deal With

And Since We Are Getting Nowhere With Each Other

I Will Disengage Except For A Drop Or To Of God's Word From Time To Time

And I Pray The LORD Grant You All The Many Blessings Due A Royal Child Of The KING

And I Thank You For Your Many Interesting And Provocative Posts

Behold, how good and how pleasant it is for brethren to dwell together in unity!

It is like the precious ointment upon the head, that ran down upon the beard, even Aaron's beard: that went down to the skirts of his garments;

As the dew of Hermon, and as the dew that descended upon the mountains of Zion: for there the LORD commanded the blessing, even life for evermore. Psalms 133

Post Early Post Often

And Be Blessed Beloved Of The KING

Love, Your Brother Joe

[childeye]

Thank you for your response and your Love. If you read the record, I was quite clear that Adam was not duped by Satan directly. I had pointed out that he listened to the woman who was duped. Hence I don't know to whom you are refering for I have seen no one assert what you are suggesting.

Except For Adam's Blame Naming Game With God, I Still See No Verse Suggesting Adam's Sin Was Caused In Anyway By Eve

In Fact 1 Timothy 2:14 Could In Itself Lay All The Blame Upon Adam For Adam's Sin

Leaving Eve Only Her Lust Of The Eye And Resultant Sin To Deal With

And Since We Are Getting Nowhere With Each Other

I Will Disengage Except For A Drop Or To Of God's Word From Time To Time

And I Pray The LORD Grant You All The Many Blessings Due A Royal Child Of The KING

And I Thank You For Your Many Interesting And Provocative Posts

Behold, how good and how pleasant it is for brethren to dwell together in unity!

It is like the precious ointment upon the head, that ran down upon the beard, even Aaron's beard: that went down to the skirts of his garments;

As the dew of Hermon, and as the dew that descended upon the mountains of Zion: for there the LORD commanded the blessing, even life for evermore. Psalms 133

Post Early Post Often

And Be Blessed Beloved Of The KING

Love, Your Brother Joe

Wait Fresno Joe, don't stop writing on the thread. I would like to address your statement, "Except For Adam's Blame Naming Game With God". Look at Genesis 3:17 again,

¹⁷ To Adam he said, “Because you listened to your wife and ate fruit from the tree about which I commanded you, ‘You must not eat from it,’

Are you suggesting that God got it wrong when He believed what Adam said? That God was deceived by Adam? For God does not say anything to suggest that Adam was hiding behind the woman so as to blame her.

[OneLight]

Childeye, It does not matter if a person was ignorant, duped, deceived, mislead, misinformed, baffled, lied to, blinded, deluded, tricked, or any other descriptive word that can be given to the process leading to a decision, the weight lands within the choice one makes, if that choice results in sin or not. If the choice is made without proper understanding, then the decision was made too quickly without searching for the real truth, sifting properly through all the information one has gathered to see if it lines up with Gods word.

You see, there are three in play here. The one who is lying, the one being lied to, and God. If the one who is being lied to does not turn back to God to see if what the liar said is true or not, the fault is on the one who makes the choice, or in this case, not making the choice to recheck the facts with His word or God.

You may be surprised that I agree with a lot of what you have posted, up to the point of responsibility. One does not have to always be misinformed or ignorant to sin, and that really does not matter if they were. There are many places where people have willfully chosen to go against God because of their pride or personal desire to have what they want. What is important is not why, but the choice they make. When sinners stand before God, what difference is it going to make for them to say that they were stupid then, but know better now? To be honest, I would not be surprised if everyone will say that when they know the result of their actions and beliefs is resulting in eternal separation from God. Romans 14:11 does say "For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God."

In short, taking the responsibility away from the one making the decision by belittling the responsibility of the one making choice is misleading, especially the one making the choice. People need to know that they will stand accountable for their choices. Otherwise, they have no focus and growth is diminished. This is counterproductive.

[BlessedByTheBest]

The doubt raised in the Word of God came about because Eve ate, and yet lived. Thus Adam had quite the conundrum.

God said they would surely die, and here is Adam's companion alive and well after partaking of the forbidden fruit. And so the doubt, and the wonder of what God truly meant by death overwhelmed him.

Perhaps God lied, he thought.. Perhaps he is withholding something from us..

Regardless, this qualifies as willful sin in my book, because whether they were subtly deceived or not, they still directly disobeyed God's command. Both of them.

No amount of deception or ignorance is an excuse, in a state of innocence, or in state of sin.

The circumstance or reasoning behind our intended actions or consequences that unfold through an accident are irrelevant to a Holy God whom has placed His commandments in our hearts.

The good news is that we can be forgiven.

Respectfully, the doubt came about because of the serpent.

ah yes indeed, the serpent introduced the questioning of God's Word.

but can we say with any certainty that Adam or Eve would never have partaken of that forbidden fruit had that sly snake never disturbed Eden?

does innocence rule out curiosity?

i don't think we can conclusively state that sin would never have manifested without the influence of the father or lies.

regardless, the judgement came upon man and woman for their disobedience. the dragon's time will come.

Only if we forgive therefore, will we be forgiven..

amen to this.

love to you.

[Guest]

Wait Fresno Joe, don't stop writing on the thread. I would like to address your statement, "Except For Adam's Blame Naming Game With God". Look at Genesis 3:17 again,

¹⁷ To Adam he said, “Because you listened to your wife and ate fruit from the tree about which I commanded you, ‘You must not eat from it,’

Are you suggesting that God got it wrong when He believed what Adam said? That God was deceived by Adam? For God does not say anything to suggest that Adam was hiding behind the woman so as to blame her.

Dear Brother What I Am Suggesting Is God Simply Countered Adam's Blame Game With The Truth

With God's Bottom Line"ate fruit from the tree about which I commanded you, ‘You must not eat from it,’"

[childeye]

Childeye, It does not matter if a person was ignorant, duped, deceived, mislead, misinformed, baffled, lied to, blinded, deluded, tricked, or any other descriptive word that can be given to the process leading to a decision, the weight lands within the choice one makes, if that choice results in sin or not. If the choice is made without proper understanding, then the decision was made too quickly without searching for the real truth, sifting properly through all the information one has gathered to see if it lines up with Gods word.

You see, there are three in play here. The one who is lying, the one being lied to, and God. If the one who is being lied to does not turn back to God to see if what the liar said is true or not, the fault is on the one who makes the choice, or in this case, not making the choice to recheck the facts with His word or God.

You may be surprised that I agree with a lot of what you have posted, up to the point of responsibility. One does not have to always be misinformed or ignorant to sin, and that really does not matter if they were. There are many places where people have willfully chosen to go against God because of their pride or personal desire to have what they want. What is important is not why, but the choice they make. When sinners stand before God, what difference is it going to make for them to say that they were stupid then, but know better now? To be honest, I would not be surprised if everyone will say that when they know the result of their actions and beliefs is resulting in eternal separation from God. Romans 14:11 does say "For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God."

In short, taking the responsibility away from the one making the decision by belittling the responsibility of the one making choice is misleading, especially the one making the choice. People need to know that they will stand accountable for their choices. Otherwise, they have no focus and growth is diminished. This is counterproductive.

Thank you so much for your discourse with me. I am so happy you have responded. For I was sorely afraid I had offended you unto my loss. I can agree with most all you say here except for some small misunderstandings. If I may speak forthrightly as to a brother? I do not, in my mind, remove any responsibility. In fact, it is my sincere desire for me to feel guilt and heartfelt sorrow. We were kicked out of the garden, and we now face death. In all honesty, any sorrow based on the simple fact that I disobeyed God, would now be only self-serving. No. I find that the guilt that brings forth a true repentance and contrite heart, is one that acknowledges the slander placed upon a Loving and self-sacrificing Father that was believed upon, wherein disobedience was even considered. That is the cause of my godly sorrow.

So I believe that Adam and Eve would never have believed such a blasphemous lie if it were not so subtle and cunning in it's presentation. But this is not an excuse so as to downplay the error, nor would I even seek to escape punishment though that punishment be death, knowing what I had done. I praise God that through the Holy Spirit I was able to even see what I had done, so that I could cast away the corrupt image of god that had poisoned my heart, mind and soul. I do not run from this responsibility. I embrace it. It is my sackcloth and ashes, my humility and most importantly, my power to forgive others with all purity and humility. My cross and tribulations are as sweet things to me. Such is His grace upon me and my sincere adoration of Him.

[childeye]

Wait Fresno Joe, don't stop writing on the thread. I would like to address your statement, "Except For Adam's Blame Naming Game With God". Look at Genesis 3:17 again,

¹⁷ To Adam he said, “Because you listened to your wife and ate fruit from the tree about which I commanded you, ‘You must not eat from it,’

Are you suggesting that God got it wrong when He believed what Adam said? That God was deceived by Adam? For God does not say anything to suggest that Adam was hiding behind the woman so as to blame her.

Dear Brother What I Am Suggesting Is God Simply Countered Adam's Blame Game With The Truth

With God's Bottom Line"ate fruit from the tree about which I commanded you, ‘You must not eat from it,’"

My mistake. I hope I did not offend you.

[childeye]

The doubt raised in the Word of God came about because Eve ate, and yet lived. Thus Adam had quite the conundrum.

God said they would surely die, and here is Adam's companion alive and well after partaking of the forbidden fruit. And so the doubt, and the wonder of what God truly meant by death overwhelmed him.

Perhaps God lied, he thought.. Perhaps he is withholding something from us..

Regardless, this qualifies as willful sin in my book, because whether they were subtly deceived or not, they still directly disobeyed God's command. Both of them.

No amount of deception or ignorance is an excuse, in a state of innocence, or in state of sin.

The circumstance or reasoning behind our intended actions or consequences that unfold through an accident are irrelevant to a Holy God whom has placed His commandments in our hearts.

The good news is that we can be forgiven.

Respectfully, the doubt came about because of the serpent.

ah yes indeed, the serpent introduced the questioning of God's Word.

but can we say with any certainty that Adam or Eve would never have partaken of that forbidden fruit had that sly snake never disturbed Eden?

does innocence rule out curiosity?

i don't think we can conclusively state that sin would never have manifested without the influence of the father or lies.

regardless, the judgement came upon man and woman for their disobedience. the dragon's time will come.

Only if we forgive therefore, will we be forgiven..

amen to this.

love to you.

Answers to such questions are above me. But if I were to guess, I would sorrowfully say, yes eventually we would have wandered from God. For scripture says this:

Isaiah 66:23-24

New International Version (NIV)

²³ From one New Moon to another and from one Sabbath to another, all mankind will come and bow down before me,” says the Lord. ²⁴ “And they will go out and look on the dead bodies of those who rebelled against me; the worms that eat them will not die, the fire that burns them will not be quenched, and they will be loathsome to all mankind.”