Who do you think the woman is in Revelation 12?

[Guest]

Well Red, if you are agreeeing with me, the woman still is a metaphor, a metaphor for Israel (the people, not the nation). I could well be wrong, I just go with what I consider to be the simplest explanation that takes the least amount of imagination.

My general rule is understand things in a literal sense, when it makes sense. I do not think we are talking about a literal woman here, so I look for symbolism. For the reasons I listed, Israel seems a likely candidate. Other answers are possible, but too complicated for me.

[xero]

Well Red, if you are agreeeing with me, the woman still is a metaphor, a metaphor for Israel (the people, not the nation). I could well be wrong, I just go with what I consider to be the simplest explanation that takes the least amount of imagination.

My general rule is understand things in a literal sense, when it makes sense. I do not think we are talking about a literal woman here, so I look for symbolism. For the reasons I listed, Israel seems a likely candidate. Other answers are possible, but too complicated for me.

Ill post Galatians one more time and Ill use the New International Version so theres no mistaking the plain english:

Galatians 4:22 "For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the slave woman and the other by the free woman. 23His son by the slave woman was born according to the flesh, but his son by the free woman was born as the result of a divine promise.

24These things are being taken figuratively: The women represent two covenants. One covenant is from Mount Sinai and bears children who are to be slaves: This is Hagar. 25Now Hagar stands for Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present city of Jerusalem, because she is in slavery with her children. 26But the Jerusalem that is above is free, and she is our mother. 27For it is written:

“Be glad, barren woman,

you who never bore a child;

shout for joy and cry aloud,

you who were never in labor;

because more are the children of the desolate woman

than of her who has a husband.”

28Now you, brothers and sisters, like Isaac, are children of promise. 29At that time the son born according to the flesh persecuted the son born by the power of the Spirit. It is the same now. 30But what does Scripture say? “Get rid of the slave woman and her son, for the slave woman’s son will never share in the inheritance with the free woman’s son.” 31Therefore, brothers and sisters, we are not children of the slave woman, but of the free woman."

Jerusalem above is the mother of us all not present Jerusalem which corresponds to the slave woman.

Brethren you have to seal in your mind that you are a child of God; God is our Father and Jerusalem above is our mother, its imperative to know this because this isnt mystical at all its a legal custody battle between flesh and Spirit and the flesh is dead so if you side with the flesh death is your inheritance.

God is the only Way to inherit all things but most importantly eternal life because having everything is useless if youre dead.

Pharaoh is an excellent example that the flesh is greedy and even in death flesh wont share its riches with its children but will squander the royal family jewels in a monumental tomb to its vanity and lust for life which equates to death because lust conceives sin and sin when its finished brings forth death.

Look at history and observe how the flesh takes care of its own. Fathers kill their sons to maintain rule, sons kill their fathers to take their land, brothers murder eachother for material possessions, mothers kill daughters, daughters kill their mothers, sisters kill eachother, husbands kill their wives, wives kill their husbands, and all for what? The love of money and all for gain of inheritance.

Its madness when you know that these people never believed in eternal life because if they did they wouldnt have been so afraid for their livelyhood and survival here to the point where they are willing to kill their loved ones to acquire material wealth.

Im telling you brethren youll see everything differently when you know God is your Father and Jerusalem is your mother because you will know who we are. Were the Royal House of God. Kings and queens of the Most High and its beyond my vocabulary to esteem the majesty of such an honor.

You neednt place trust in me on this just read Galatians.

[Guest]

Nice dissertation, but I am unable to determine if you are providing and answer to the original question.

[Willa]

Chapter 12 seems to be a paranthetical piece of history. There has never been any doubt in my mind that the woman of Rev. 12 is the nation of Isreal. She produced a male child, our Christ. She was persecuted by satan over the centuries. She has a garland of 12 stars, the 12 tribes of Israel. In v.4, Satan tried to kill off Jesus by murdering all the babies under 2, and finally by the cross. Christ will return and rule the nations with a rod of iron during the mellinium.. During the tribulation Israel will be sheltered in the wilderness for 3.5 years. Rev. 12:17 says that satan was enraged with the woman, and he went off to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. This is a direct reference to born again believers, the true church. We see that persecution over the centuries also but it is becoming even worse in this day and age. Persecution started with Jesus Himself saying that we will be treated the way He was treated. Muslim persecution is growing, but so is discrimination and public opinion being turned against Christians in the last 40 years.

Rev 19:6 we find the church in heaven preparing for the marriage supper of the Lamb. Vs 11 has his return followed by armies in heaven clothed in fine white clean linen, garments no doubt worn at the marriage supper, and Christ returns to rule with the rod of iron.

Revelations cannot be read in direct chronological order. That is the thinking of the western mind. The Jews and the eastern mind think more as an outline. First a general subject is given. Then details of that subject. And then the details are examined revealing differenct aspects and more information. So it is more like a box within a box, open that and you find yet another box to open.

It is written more like the first few chapters of Genesis. The first chapter gives the subject and then is quite general in nature. The 2nd chapter goes into more detail about the creation of man.

It is most probable that the 24 elders in Rev. 4-5 represent the church. They are both kings and priests, they cast their crowns before the Lamb, and the new song that they sing says they are redeemed by the blood of the Lamb. 5:9. Angels can't say that, nor will angels reign on earth as in vs. 10. That is the last I see of the church till the marriage feast of the Lamb in 19:6. with the exception of chapter 12, which seems to be another outline that is inserted into the middle of it all--parenthetical.

I am no expert on revelations, but this sort of sums up what little light I have on the subject. I get really mixed up on all the bowls, vials, seals, trumpets and all.

[xero]

Nice dissertation, but I am unable to determine if you are providing and answer to the original question.

Ive answered "who is the woman in Revelation 12" with Jerusalem above because she is the mother of us all.

To begin with I posted Israel is the woman in Revelation 12 but it became necessary to explain how Israel got up in heaven so I quoted Galatians to illustrate that Jerusalem above is the mother of us all.

It then became important to clarify that Jerusalem above is the woman not Jerusalem present which is prefigured by Agar.

I could quote many verses to illustrate that the woman from Revelation 12 is Israel but none are as clear as "Jerusalem above is the mother of us all."

Revelation 21 tells us New Jerusalem comes down from heaven like a bride adorned for her husband.

Ephesians 5:31 "For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and the two shall be one flesh. 32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church."

Its not a great mystery at all following the logic its self explanatory while literally explaining self.

Im burdened by proof, and its a light burden, but Im often placed with unnecessary burdens when the proof is in one verse.

Its not right.

What is it exactly you find to be a problem with "Jerusalem above is the mother of us all" as an answer to the woman in Revelation 12 because writing, "I dont think you answered the question", doesnt tell me how you came to that conclusion.

Ive read your previous posts on the thread and theres nothing Ive written conflicting with what youve written except the distiction between Jerusalem above and Jerusalem present so thats the obvious point of contention.

Theres no sense arguing.

Romans 8:1 "There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 2For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. 3For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: 4That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 5For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. 6For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. 8So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God."

Long story short, "It is the spirit that quickens the flesh profits nothing,",

[gdemoss]

Well Red, if you are agreeeing with me, the woman still is a metaphor, a metaphor for Israel (the people, not the nation). I could well be wrong, I just go with what I consider to be the simplest explanation that takes the least amount of imagination.

My general rule is understand things in a literal sense, when it makes sense. I do not think we are talking about a literal woman here, so I look for symbolism. For the reasons I listed, Israel seems a likely candidate. Other answers are possible, but too complicated for me.

Ill post Galatians one more time and Ill use the New International Version so theres no mistaking the plain english:

Galatians 4:22 "For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the slave woman and the other by the free woman. 23His son by the slave woman was born according to the flesh, but his son by the free woman was born as the result of a divine promise.

24These things are being taken figuratively: The women represent two covenants. One covenant is from Mount Sinai and bears children who are to be slaves: This is Hagar. 25Now Hagar stands for Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present city of Jerusalem, because she is in slavery with her children. 26But the Jerusalem that is above is free, and she is our mother. 27For it is written:

“Be glad, barren woman,

you who never bore a child;

shout for joy and cry aloud,

you who were never in labor;

because more are the children of the desolate woman

than of her who has a husband.”

28Now you, brothers and sisters, like Isaac, are children of promise. 29At that time the son born according to the flesh persecuted the son born by the power of the Spirit. It is the same now. 30But what does Scripture say? “Get rid of the slave woman and her son, for the slave woman’s son will never share in the inheritance with the free woman’s son.” 31Therefore, brothers and sisters, we are not children of the slave woman, but of the free woman."

Jerusalem above is the mother of us all not present Jerusalem which corresponds to the slave woman.

Brethren you have to seal in your mind that you are a child of God; God is our Father and Jerusalem above is our mother, its imperative to know this because this isnt mystical at all its a legal custody battle between flesh and Spirit and the flesh is dead so if you side with the flesh death is your inheritance.

God is the only Way to inherit all things but most importantly eternal life because having everything is useless if youre dead.

Pharaoh is an excellent example that the flesh is greedy and even in death flesh wont share its riches with its children but will squander the royal family jewels in a monumental tomb to its vanity and lust for life which equates to death because lust conceives sin and sin when its finished brings forth death.

Look at history and observe how the flesh takes care of its own. Fathers kill their sons to maintain rule, sons kill their fathers to take their land, brothers murder eachother for material possessions, mothers kill daughters, daughters kill their mothers, sisters kill eachother, husbands kill their wives, wives kill their husbands, and all for what? The love of money and all for gain of inheritance.

Its madness when you know that these people never believed in eternal life because if they did they wouldnt have been so afraid for their livelyhood and survival here to the point where they are willing to kill their loved ones to acquire material wealth.

Im telling you brethren youll see everything differently when you know God is your Father and Jerusalem is your mother because you will know who we are. Were the Royal House of God. Kings and queens of the Most High and its beyond my vocabulary to esteem the majesty of such an honor.

You neednt place trust in me on this just read Galatians.

Nice work. Seeking further clarification.

Are we in the 'womb' in these bodies then? Seeds planted in the womb of the earth to grow up and be born (manifested)?

Thanks.

[xero]

Nice work.  Seeking further clarification.

Are we in the 'womb' in these bodies then?  Seeds planted in the womb of the earth to grow up and be born (manifested)?

Thanks.

Naturally the Head does crown first. Spiritually we can liken the resurrection to a birth, a marriage, and a funeral.

Christ is fully born (the body comes forth), Christ is married (the Head joins the body to Himself), and death is in a funeral pyre.

I know thats an oversimplification but working with themes makes things a bit easier to mentally categorize.

The natural body is like a seed sown in weakness and raised in the power of the Spirit so its like were in the womb.

The pit is also a reference to the womb:

Isaiah 51:1 "Hearken to me, ye that follow after righteousness, ye that seek the LORD: look unto the rock whence ye are hewn, and to the hole of the pit whence ye are digged.

2Look unto Abraham your father, and unto Sarah that bare you: for I called him alone, and blessed him, and increased him."

Reminds me of the void in Genesis with the unformed earth being barren.

We know for a fact God is the Rock we are hewn from so that only leaves Jerusalem above to be the hole of a pit from which we are dug.

The more I read the Bible the clearer it becomes that everything is line upon line, precept upon precept, here a little there a little. 

Glory be to God.

[back2thebible]

The book itself, however, is for the benefit of believers (1:1; 22:16), not angels.

I have to say a whole lot of connection between what happens in heaven and what happens on earth are very apparent, although natural man can not see these things, but the whole new testiment shows a direct corelation beteen what is bound on earth is bound in heaven, and even Jesus Himself in teaching us to pray mentions this very fact, "on earth as it is in heaven"