7 trumpets=7bowls=7seals

[J-Andy]

I would basically agree with the above 2 posts...I don't know why Christians (well some of them) seem to have the idea we shall just fly up to heaven and avoid it all...that

does not seem to be what Jesus stated

I'll add I never heard the bondage and release from Egypt compared with the tribulation that way...but it makes sense

In Daniel 3 the King of Babylon erected an image to himself ('the image of the beast') and commanded all nations, tribes and tongues to worship it. Shadrach, Meshach and Abenego ('the faithful remnant') refused and were cast into the burning, fiery furnace (the great tribulation).

We can stand on our heads and whistle pre-tribulation through our noses if we like, but God did not deliver Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego from the burning fiery furance (the great tribulation) before they were even cast into it.

The king of Babylon was so enraged with them that he increased the heat of the burning, firey furnace 7-fold (7 = completion - their tribulation was at its worst, it could not be intensified any more than what it had been).

(Mat 24:21) for then shall be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world to this time; no, nor ever shall be.

(Mat 24:22) And unless those days should be shortened, no flesh would be saved. But for the elect's sake, those days shall be shortened.

Then the king called them, telling them to come out, seeing that they had not been destroyed (the '2 witnesses' are told to "come up here" in Rev 11 after the beast and his armies has killed them).

Of all the Israelites in Egypt, only 2 were given power over the waters, to turn them to blood - Moses and Aaron. They were the only 2 of all the Israelites chosen to be God's witnesses to Pharaoh.

And all the while, Pharaoh was increasing the tribulation of the saints in Egypt.

We can stand on our heads and whistle pre-tribulation through our noses if we like, but although God kept His people from being harmed by the plagues, He did not deliver them from their tribulation before Pharaoh had brought it upon them.

And we can stand on our heads and whistle pre-tribulation through our noses if we like, but it was Jesus Himself who used the words "great tribulation" when He said that this gospel of the kingdom shall first be preached as a witness in all the world, and

(Mat 24:9) "Then they will deliver you up to be afflicted and will kill you. And you will be hated of all nations for My name's sake" (then He warns of false prophets coming around that time etc) and then He says,

(Mat 24:15) Therefore when you see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place (whoever reads, let him understand). (He tells those in Judea to flee because)

(Mat 24:21) for then shall be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world to this time; no, nor ever shall be.

(Mat 24:22) And unless those days should be shortened, no flesh would be saved. But for the elect's sake, those days shall be shortened.

And we can stand on our heads and whistle pre-tribulation through our noses as much as we like, but Jesus Himself said that the sun would be darkened etc imediately after that period of great tribulation.

And of all the N.T references to tribulation, distress etc, only 2 verses are not in the context of the tribulation of the saints of the hand of the world, once in Romans where Paul says,

(Rom 2:9) tribulation and anguish upon every soul of man who has worked out evil; of the Jew first, and also of the Greek.

and once where Paul says,

(2Th 1:6) since it is a righteous thing with God to repay tribulation to those who trouble you,

(2Th 1:7) and to give rest with us to you who are troubled, at the revealing of the Lord Jesus from Heaven with the angels of His power,

All the other references in the N.T to tribulation, distress, affliction etc are references to the trib of saints.

And we can stand on oour heads and whistle pre-tribulation through our noses if we like, but the Olivet discourse is the first of only three references to 'great tribulation'. The second is also by Jesus in Rev 2, where He warns the Thyatira church about following the false doctrines of false prophets (He had warned about false prophets in the Olivet Discourse also), and there Jesus states clearly that He Himself will cast the church into great tribulation if they do not heed His warnings.

And we can stand on oour heads and whistle pre-tribulation through our noses if we like, but the third and last reference to great tribulation in the N.T is where John speaks about the multitude of saints in heaven who had come out from the great tribulation.

We can stand on our heads and whistle pre-tribulation through our noses if we like, but neither the N.T nor the Old ever calls God's wrath/judgement of the world 'the great tribulation'. It is only pre-tribulationists who do that.

We can stand on our heads and whistle pre-tribulation through our noses if we like, but God is not going to deliver His faithful remnant from the burning, fiery furnace (the great tribulation) before we have even been cast into it.

Unfortunately. How nice it would be if it were different. But there is a cost to following Jesus, and just as the cost of following YHWH was great to the Israelites (and became the greatest just before their redemption and the judgment of their persecutors), so the cost to us is going to be increased 7-fold, becoming greater and greater, and be at it's greatest immediately before the resurrection/rapture of the saints.

Edited April 6, 2013 by Guest 555

[gdemoss]

Ok I just had another thought....maybe just maybe we escape the wrath of God because we are the ones causing it, maybe we are the 2 witnesses that God gives His power to and are able to cause all the plagues, and then because of this we are killed and people rejoice, they wage war on us (tribulation) because of the plagues we are able to give (7 trumpets/7 bowls). When you read through the book of revelations it puts the parts about us right between trumpets 6 and 7 . So, "2 witnesses" cause the plagues, then they are persecuted by the beast which just revealed himself ...."When they finish their testimony, the beast that ascends out of the bottomless pit will make war against them...". Is this really far fetched? Wrath first then the Tribulation? The wrath causes the tribulation? If you notice in chapter 11 that after these 2 witnesses are killed and resurrected there is no more wrath? Just the dead arise then the last trumpet (at the last trumpet, the dead in Christ will rise first, then us who are alive and remain will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air). It looks like when the witnesses are resurrected THAT is when the rapture is! Let me know what you guys think! P.S. kind of looks like some of the plagues are already happening, rivers turning like blood, Euphrates river drying up, droughts, locusts, meteors.

uh...no. That thought has been posted in these forums before....the Bible says 2 witnesses...I take it to mean 2 witnesses. As in one.........and another one. Which makes 2.

Respectfully, understanding the revelation of John is not conjecture...just as Jesus gave John the vision, so is He able to give all understanding...but you know, it appears He

has chosen not to do that

You do understand how very old John was and that he had a lifetime of experience and the ability to discern and knew Jesus personally, right? Revelation such as John

had is closed I believe..

But I have a funny feeling they are us given the power to inflict the plagues. I noticed that when these witnesses are resurrected right before the last trumpet, they don't mention any more plagues. No more plagues after they are caught up to the Lord!

The gifts are given for the edification of the body. What you state, would indicate you have some kind of revelatory gift...that is the only way you could state what you do.

However, the revelatory gifts are not for lone ranger prophets or those so young in Christ that they cannot discern.

Can God speak to an individual in a manner concerning their own life? Absolutely...but the revelation has already been given concerning the end times...I am positive that

as things proceed, what is unclear now will, in fact, become clear.....God does things purposefully and in a progressive way....He is not in a hurry

God does things in order....we do not discern by funny feelings or even dreams. There is so much of this type of thing going around and it really is only guesswork

and conjecture.

I understand some people do not want to hear that, however, God does not take shortcuts with people....whether a person dies today or 50 years from now, will not

change how God works one little bit...the Bible says that most people should not desire to teach.and for good reason because that is the bigger responsibility...yet,

that does not seem to dissuade people from declaring that they have heard personally from God and that they dreamt or had a vision.

We are living in the age of deception and I would be amiss to leave out the fact that Christians are absolutely gullible and open for deception...in fact, the more one

peers into the spiritual realm, the more they had better understand that fact. I am probably talking Chinese to some right now

Our way is indicated in the Bible...we are not to follow dreams, signs and visions as these will increase and be an indication of the anti-Christ actually, so a person

really needs to be very careful that what they are listening to and believing is actually scriptural and not just spiritual. Spiritual does not mean it is holy.

I know what is says in the book of Joel. But that is not the only book in the Bible.

I can only warn...I know these words are often unwelcome. However, this is just an online forum....as we go forward, keep in mind that things will become so dark and

heavy with deception, that if you fail to grasp that now, it will be too late then.

For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires,

II Tim 4:3

Sound doctrine is not a vision or a dream...it is what is written in the 66 books in our Bibles.

They say to the seers, "See no more visions!" and to the prophets, "Give us no more visions of what is right! Tell us pleasant things, prophesy illusions. Isaiah 30:10

For the time will come - There is a time coming to the Church when men will not hear the practical truths of the Gospel, when they will prefer speculative opinions, which either do no good to the soul, or corrupt and destroy it, to that wholesome doctrine of "deny thyself, take up thy cross and follow me," which Jesus Christ has left in his Church (Clarkes Commentary)..

Feelings are not an indicator of truth....truth reveals error...

All believers have a "relevatory gift". He is the Holy Spirit and revealing what the Word means is one of the things He is in us for.

Dreams, signs, and visions were/are all used by God, so I think we should rely on the Holy Spirit to help us discern between the true and the false of them.

I can agree with your last statement.

No...all believers do not have a revalatory gift. The gifts of the Holy Spirit are given according to God's discretion and all believers do not have the same gifts.

One of the offices of the Holy Spirit is Teacher...the problem we have occurring today, is that multiples of Christians have jumped on the bandwagon of dreams and

visions, do not have an inkling of what scripture teaches, absolutely refuse instruction or warnings, pay no attention to the fact that there are evil spirits who

are free to seduce any and all that they can (Christians...the world is already deceived) with the result that anyone who says I had a dream is immediately elevated

to super spiritual status and anyone who says 'wait a minute' is told, basically, that the Holy Spirit revealed it to them.

The website that was linked to recently, in which a certain person purported to have ongoing dreams and visions and long chats with Jesus while walking in a field

or hanging out somewhere, is typical of the type of error that passes for spiritual revelation for those who refuse instruction and say that they don't need anyone

because they have the Holy Spirit.

That person, told myself and someone else that we had cursed them and offered a bogus prayer on our behalf supposedly to thwart the wrath of God against us

for daring to question her 'authority' and the fact that Jesus loves her so much.

Do you have any idea of the lies in that statement alone? The gift of prophecy as described in the NT is mainly forthtelling...NOT foretelling....this person is deceived

and is deceiving others. She has been seduced and is seducing others...who have itching ears. The spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets...scripture

teaches us to discern and not just accept things...yet people like this false prophet tell you that you have no right to question their authority...and then they dress

up their lies in false love.

The revelation has already been given....there is no more to say...God has already spoken.

Yes, God can and does give a dream or even a vision...but in the nature of what the disciple John experienced....I absolutely believe God makes His will known..

but when the words coming out of someone's mouth fly in the face of scripture...and that woman's false dreams do, plus she says we must not question her,

then you can be assured God has nothing to do with what she sees or hears. Along with the fact that people may have a dream or a vison, are many

many warnings given regarding false dreams and visions and prophecies. It is not wise to ignore that fact, yet it seems that most are ignoring that fact

I know it doesn't matter what I say.....but it does...there are people driving right through stop signs, warning signs, hazard signs, red lights...they just keep going.

I can only warn people....and the reason I do, is because they have ignored every warning already given and so God has people like me come along and maybe

someone will pay attention. Maybe

I understand that these dreams and visions are meat and potatoes to many, but it will prove a poisonous menu in the future.

Whether or not you agree really has no bearing on the truth. What I have stated, you can find in the Bible...it is not my place to convince anyone...only warn.

It can be really tricky to try and address someone on an issue you perceive that they have without condemning yourself in the process. You may not realize it but you come across in your post as being one who has absolute authority from God on the issue and have been sent as his personal messenger to correct those who are in error. Did you realize that?

[Sevenseas]

LOL! Is that what you get Gary? I was talking about another site that was linked to...and I sure was not the only one who thought that site was not what it claimed to be

I'll just say what you usually say...I have not ever claimed to be an authority...but the spirit within me, seems to be directing me to say this

It happens that I actually do know what I am talking about when it comes to these dreams and visions and anyone can use the authority they have at their disposal...the Bible

The Bible does not line up with the dreams and visions...it does not give authority to the type of thing I am referring to...why is it that when someone points out such blatant

error, such as was found on that site, that they are vilified? I am not saying you are vilifying me...but I don't suppose you see that those who espouse such things are claiming

that THEY are actually the authority?

The person who has had all these dreams states that we are not allowed to examine her visitations....the minute I read or hear such a thing, I know without doubt that the person'

who claims this is not speaking for God

I base my response on the Bible...seriously, we are not allowed to examine whether or not something is from God and we should take the word of one person that they have

intimate contact with God and we are not allowed to question anything?

The Bible says the exact opposite! People are fond of quoting Joel and I have no problem with that...but they seem to forget all the warnings about deception and the fact

that satan comes as an angel of light...there are far more warnings about the deception and false prophets then there are passages urging us on to ever greater and higher

spiritual experiences ...

I have written quite a bit in this forum about using the mind God gave us to be aware of deception and the many forms it takes...and that will not stop as it is in total

keeping with the word of God

I have not made false claims or told everyone what God is going to do...I have written when something does not line up with the Bible that people should use caution

I would be careful about thinking others may think themselves the personal messenger of God...you may have changed your mind on your own timeline, but I told you right

from the start, along with many others, that we did not think it was going to happen

You know, some of us actually do know what we are talking about...some of us do have gifts and try to use them as God intended

It can be really tricky to try and address someone on an issue you perceive that they have without condemning yourself in the process. You may not realize it but you come across in your post as being one who has absolute authority from God on the issue and have been sent as his personal messenger to correct those who are in error. Did you realize that?

I actually realize alot of things Gary which is why I don't talk about everything I know...but as Patriot said, if he owned this site, he would have removed the link

and I couldn't agree more.

If you ever see me writing God told me to tell you, remind me of this post, and I will eat my computer

[gdemoss]

SS, I said nothing about questioning someone. I have learned that we ought to question all things, especially that which comes from within and includes dreams and visions. You may very well be correct in your assessment of them. I do not know. I do not even have any inner witness either way. I simply wanted you to let you know how your post came across in case you couldn't see it. Carry on.

[Sevenseas]

SS, I said nothing about questioning someone. I have learned that we ought to question all things, especially that which comes from within and includes dreams and visions. You may very well be correct in your assessment of them. I do not know. I do not even have any inner witness either way. I simply wanted you to let you know how your post came across in case you couldn't see it. Carry on.

Thank you Gary...you do realize I was speaking mainly of that other site? The Bible contains every warning I have given and more...why only quote Joel? Why not quote all of it and let's

decide whether it be of God or not? (not u personally)

[J-Andy]

uh...no. That thought has been posted in these forums before....the Bible says 2 witnesses...I take it to mean 2 witnesses. As in one.........and another one. Which makes 2.

That's the way I see it. I'm not saying it's "def. not" all the saints, but of all the Israelites in Egypt, only 2 were given the power of the waters, to turn them to blood - Moses and Aaron. They were also the only 2 chosen to be God's witnesses to Pharoah.

Respectfully, understanding the revelation of John is not conjecture...just as Jesus gave John the vision, so is He able to give all understanding...but you know, it appears He has chosen not to do that

I don't think that's fair, sevenseas. Born again is a growing saint , and the OP has a lot of very valid points , in my opinion. No one can claim to understand Revelation completely, and a lot of what a lot of people interpret, is conjecture.

You do understand how very old John was and that he had a lifetime of experience and the ability to discern and knew Jesus personally, right? Revelation such as John had is closed I believe..

I fully agree with that. The revelation ends with a warning about adding to John's prophecy. It completes all prophecy and revelation until the return of Christ.

The gifts are given for the edification of the body. What you state, would indicate you have some kind of revelatory gift...that is the only way you could state what you do. However, the revelatory gifts are not for lone ranger prophets or those so young in Christ that they cannot discern.

Tut tut, so harsh. Be gentler, kinder. You're an elder (smiling).

We are living in the age of deception and I would be amiss to leave out the fact that Christians are absolutely gullible and open for deception...in fact, the more one peers into the spiritual realm, the more they had better understand that fact. I am probably talking Chinese to some right now

Our way is indicated in the Bible...we are not to follow dreams, signs and visions as these will increase and be an indication of the anti-Christ actually, so a person really needs to be very careful that what they are listening to and believing is actually scriptural and not just spiritual. Spiritual does not mean it is holy.

I couldn't agree more.

I can only warn...I know these words are often unwelcome. However, this is just an online forum....as we go forward, keep in mind that things will become so dark and heavy with deception, that if you fail to grasp that now, it will be too late then.

Good for you! You have my support 100%! Problem is I'm unlikely to stick around. I get totally discouraged and disheartened by any sort of Christian forums/discussions. Far too much nonsense going on in them.

For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires,

II Tim 4:3

Sound doctrine is not a vision or a dream...it is what is written in the 66 books in our Bibles.

They say to the seers, "See no more visions!" and to the prophets, "Give us no more visions of what is right! Tell us pleasant things, prophesy illusions. Isaiah 30:10

For the time will come - There is a time coming to the Church when men will not hear the practical truths of the Gospel, when they will prefer speculative opinions, which either do no good to the soul, or corrupt and destroy it, to that wholesome doctrine of "deny thyself, take up thy cross and follow me," which Jesus Christ has left in his Church (Clarkes Commentary)..

Feelings are not an indicator of truth....truth reveals error...

Very, very true. Not much Biblical truth being taught anywhere any more. Decption is indeed growing by the day in the church. We are the church of Thyatira, following Jezebels, and every other Revelation church, having become rich.. yet there are those who remain faithful among us, and who have not lost their first love, but those are the ones living in China and Islamic countries, mainly. Few are found outside those areas. The 7 churches culminate in the end of days church and the return of the Lord.

Edited April 5, 2013 by Guest 555

[gdemoss]

uh...no. That thought has been posted in these forums before....the Bible says 2 witnesses...I take it to mean 2 witnesses. As in one.........and another one. Which makes 2.

That's the way I see it. I'm not saying it's "def. not" all the saints, but of all the Israelites in Egypt, only 2 were given the power of the waters, to turn them to blood - Moses and Aaron. They were also the only 2 chosen to be God's witnesses to Pharoah.

Have you considered that Ephraim was a man who became a tribe whose name was ascribed to the whole Northern Kingdom and even beyond?

Moses could very well represent the law while Aaron the prophets, as it is written, And Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet.

In the transfiguration Moses and Elijah appeared with Jesus bearing him witness. The law and the prophets.

Judah is my lawgiver says the Lord. Blessed are you when you are persecuted like the prophets who came before you says Jesus unto his disciples at the Mount.

Why can it not be those who are of the law as one witness and those who prophesy by the spirit as the second witness?

If we consider the singularity of the words used to be our problem then shouldn't we consider that bride is singular in number though we be many?

I confess, I do not have this all figured out. I do not bring 'a word' from God. Only questions that cause me to pause and reflect.

Peace in Christ.

[J-Andy]

uh...no. That thought has been posted in these forums before....the Bible says 2 witnesses...I take it to mean 2 witnesses. As in one.........and another one. Which makes 2.

That's the way I see it. I'm not saying it's "def. not" all the saints, but of all the Israelites in Egypt, only 2 were given the power of the waters, to turn them to blood - Moses and Aaron. They were also the only 2 chosen to be God's witnesses to Pharoah.

Have you considered that Ephraim was a man who became a tribe whose name was ascribed to the whole Northern Kingdom and even beyond?

Moses could very well represent the law while Aaron the prophets, as it is written, And Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet.

In the transfiguration Moses and Elijah appeared with Jesus bearing him witness. The law and the prophets.

Judah is my lawgiver says the Lord. Blessed are you when you are persecuted like the prophets who came before you says Jesus unto his disciples at the Mount.

Why can it not be those who are of the law as one witness and those who prophesy by the spirit as the second witness?

If we consider the singularity of the words used to be our problem then shouldn't we consider that bride is singular in number though we be many?

I confess, I do not have this all figured out. I do not bring 'a word' from God. Only questions that cause me to pause and reflect.

Peace in Christ.

I have mediated in my heart over that also in the past, and haven't ditched the possibility, or the possibility that the 2 witnesses are 2 individuals:

(Isa 43:10) Ye are My witnesses, saith the LORD, and My servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe Me, and understand that I am He; before Me there was no God formed, neither shall any be after Me.

(Isa 43:11) I, even I, am the LORD; and beside Me there is no saviour.

(Isa 43:12) I have declared, and I have saved, and I have announced, and there was no strange god among you; therefore ye are My witnesses, saith the LORD, and I am God.

Yes, there's Israel (Ephraim) and Judah. Ephraim was exiled to the nations, and has never returned, yet God promised Israel (Ephraim) that they would be returned to the land together with the house of Judah, and the two sticks would become one stick in the hand of Ephraim:

(Eze 37:19) say into them: Thus saith the Lord GOD: Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his companions; and I will put them unto him together with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they shall be one in My hand.

The prophecies surrounding the restoration of Ephraim were quoted by Peter and Paul in reference to the Gentiles:

(Rom 9:24) whom He also called, not only us, of Jews, but also of the nations?

(Rom 9:25) As He also says in Hosea, "I will call those not My people, My people; and those not beloved, Beloved."

(Rom 9:26) And it shall be, in the place where it was said to them. "You are not My people; there they shall be called sons of the living God."

That prophecy quoted by Paul in its O.T context referred to Ephraim - the Northern tribes.

So I don't ditch what you are saying, nor do I ditch the fact that of all the Israelites in Ehypt, only 2 were given power over the waters, to turn them to blood, and they were also the 2 chosen to be God's witnesses to Pharaoh.

[J-Andy]

We can stand on our heads and whistle

Have fun, nice to make attempted comparisons but much you don't include, perhaps you just do not know.

There is tribulation taking place right now all around , more and more as time goes by Christians are persecuted more severely with many being killed for their faith, as scripture says it clearly 'we shall not all sleep but we shall all be changed , sleep in that context refers to death, not all will die , but all will be changed in a moment in the twinkling of an eye...believe whatever you choose , but have respect for those who you don't agree with

Lol. I see the thought police are out tonight

You stay on your roll, and I'll stay on mine, but what has been preordained by God will roll out all of its own accord. You and me, we are really not that clever.

I'd say pre-tribulationists are all self-indoctrinated by their own weird and whacky interpretations of scripture, and I smile at how you try and force square pegs into round holes. But I'm not that clever. Maybe you're cleverer than me? (but actually you and me, we're not that clever, and no matter what roll we're on, what has been preordained by God will roll out all of its own accord).

Greetings. Hope you enjoyed your Easter. I'd send you a hot cross bun if I could get it into my router.

[gdemoss]

uh...no. That thought has been posted in these forums before....the Bible says 2 witnesses...I take it to mean 2 witnesses. As in one.........and another one. Which makes 2.

That's the way I see it. I'm not saying it's "def. not" all the saints, but of all the Israelites in Egypt, only 2 were given the power of the waters, to turn them to blood - Moses and Aaron. They were also the only 2 chosen to be God's witnesses to Pharoah.

Have you considered that Ephraim was a man who became a tribe whose name was ascribed to the whole Northern Kingdom and even beyond?

Moses could very well represent the law while Aaron the prophets, as it is written, And Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet.

In the transfiguration Moses and Elijah appeared with Jesus bearing him witness. The law and the prophets.

Judah is my lawgiver says the Lord. Blessed are you when you are persecuted like the prophets who came before you says Jesus unto his disciples at the Mount.

Why can it not be those who are of the law as one witness and those who prophesy by the spirit as the second witness?

If we consider the singularity of the words used to be our problem then shouldn't we consider that bride is singular in number though we be many?

I confess, I do not have this all figured out. I do not bring 'a word' from God. Only questions that cause me to pause and reflect.

Peace in Christ.

I have mediated in my heart over that also in the past, and haven't ditched the possibility, or the possibility that the 2 witnesses are 2 individuals:

(Isa 43:10) Ye are My witnesses, saith the LORD, and My servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe Me, and understand that I am He; before Me there was no God formed, neither shall any be after Me.

(Isa 43:11) I, even I, am the LORD; and beside Me there is no saviour.

(Isa 43:12) I have declared, and I have saved, and I have announced, and there was no strange god among you; therefore ye are My witnesses, saith the LORD, and I am God.

Yes, there's Israel (Ephraim) and Judah. Ephraim was exiled to the nations, and has never returned, yet God promised Israel (Ephraim) that they would be returned to the land together with the house of Judah, and the two sticks would become one stick in the hand of Ephraim:

(Eze 37:19) say into them: Thus saith the Lord GOD: Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his companions; and I will put them unto him together with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they shall be one in My hand.

The prophecies surrounding the restoration of Ephraim were quoted by Peter and Paul in reference to the Gentiles:

(Rom 9:24) whom He also called, not only us, of Jews, but also of the nations?

(Rom 9:25) As He also says in Hosea, "I will call those not My people, My people; and those not beloved, Beloved."

(Rom 9:26) And it shall be, in the place where it was said to them. "You are not My people; there they shall be called sons of the living God."

That prophecy quoted by Paul in its O.T context referred to Ephraim - the Northern tribes.

So I don't ditch what you are saying, nor do I ditch the fact that of all the Israelites in Ehypt, only 2 were given power over the waters, to turn them to blood, and they were also the 2 chosen to be God's witnesses to Pharaoh.

Good points, well taken. Time shall tell.