Willa Posted April 12, 2013 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 68 Topic Count: 186 Topics Per Day: 0.04 Content Count: 14,256 Content Per Day: 3.32 Reputation: 16,671 Days Won: 30 Joined: 08/14/2012 Status: Offline Share Posted April 12, 2013 What is confusing people DIFFERENT than the traditional ibout it, though. I actually thought about it since I and it so happened I read it before anyone even responded some time to consider the words before I responded. Why would you assume that those who disagree with the op are confused? I don't think that adds any credibility to your statement or the op...not meaning to sound disagreeable here, but if we are posting opinions, then either give supporting scripture for them or just say you agree...or disagree. Here's a quote from another site...found this after I posted...but it happens to agree with my POV...I have researched the question of the op some and I do not find any support for the idea being presented...however, I do find support for what seems to be the general concensus. Here's the site for the quote below Adam and Eve knew that they were naked. A change in their thinking—in their perspective, in the way they looked at things—occurred. As long as they were united to God (before they sinned), as long as they were at one with Him, they looked at God, at things, and at the processes of life in a way that was not offensive to Him. Yet, as soon as they sinned, their minds changed. Their formerly innocent and pure perspective changed; they began to see evil in things. They felt shame in their nakedness. In addition, "Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God among the trees of the garden" (verse 8). This encapsulates the effect of sin. It separates from God. Adam and Eve wanted to hide themselves from Him. Their perspective on life had changed. I am in agreement with some of what you say, such as: The covering that God provided them was just a temporary covering, as was the blood sacrefice system which the Jews would eventually used. They all pointed to the permanent solution to cover our sin, the Sacrefice of Jesus on the Cross. His sacrefice went farther than to cover our sins. His ratified a New Covenant of grace which would completely remove our sin as far as the east is from the west, making our sins though they be as scarlet, to be white as snow At any rate, I just wondered why you would think that those who disagree are in confusion. The author of this thread is disagreeing with those who disagree with the op, so I do not believe we are saying the same things different ways. Sorry. Didn't mean to offend anyone. I am dyslexic and misread post #1 by the OP. This is why I was confused and assumed that others may also have been confused, whether they disagreed or not. I do apologize. I do find that this rending is a bit strange. I do believe that Adam and Eve died spiritually when they sinned, which is why we must be born again. If that is what is meant by "spiritual covering was removed" then I agree. She did say that naked means physically naked in the post I quoted, I believe. Thank you for bring this all to my attention. I will definitely let you know when I am in disagreement and I take very strong stands.. I did quote Scripture and give references. I am in complete agreement with the quote and reference you used about the change in the way they thought. I am in complete agreement that God's Word is to be interpretated litterally and that we should not read into it something that is not there. I did find your questioning my credibility to be a personal attack. But I will assume the best of you and hope you did not mean it to be offensive or insulting; and that you would not have taken it that way had it been directed to you. We are supposed to not address people but address issues. I am very sorry if I also have done that. In no way do I assume that everyone who disagrees is just confused. I was assuming that because I found the OP's statement to be confusing, that others MAY have also. I did not take into account my handicap which was the primary cause of my misreading it and confusing me. (But I did think that new Christians perhaps might focus on the word naked and not see the rest in the verses.) In no way did I mean to discredit anyone for their belief or opinion or even to belittle them. I am very sorry if I have done this. I do not feel at all superior nor do I have any reason to do so. I have never gone to Bible school or taken formal training. I am not aware of any schools of thought except that some take everything litterally, some take everything allegoricaly or something of the sort. I do read the Bible litterally and I do think that much that God does in the Old Testament are prophecies that point to Jesus. ( Another example of a litteral occurance that acted as a prophecy is Gen. 22:6-14) So If you don't agree with this style of interpretation, I completely understand and respect your opinion. You most certainly have every right to disagree. Or if you don't agree with some points I made, you have every right to do so. While I do try to base all my opinions on Scripture, I am human and prone to err. My interpretation may be all wet as may be my opinion. In Christ's LOVE Willa P.S. OP, forgive me if I put words in your mouth. That was not my intent. Again it was partially due to my misreading the post thus and ignoring your original question. There are days when my dyslexia is worse and my eyes skip around making continuity difficult. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ayin jade Posted April 12, 2013 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 44 Topic Count: 6,178 Topics Per Day: 0.87 Content Count: 43,798 Content Per Day: 6.19 Reputation: 11,244 Days Won: 58 Joined: 01/03/2005 Status: Offline Share Posted April 12, 2013 Thats what I see in the living allegory of the fig leaf and the animal skin covering of mans shame. Do you think this was a real event or only an allegory? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sevenseas Posted April 12, 2013 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 30 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 3,373 Content Per Day: 0.76 Reputation: 683 Days Won: 22 Joined: 02/28/2012 Status: Offline Share Posted April 12, 2013 willamina Sorry. Didn't mean to offend anyone. OK ~ but disagreeing does not mean someone is offended...really! no problem there at all I am dyslexic and misread post #1 by the OP. This is why I was confused and assumed that others may also have been confused, whether they disagreed or not. I do apologize. again, no problem Willamina...I was wondering why you wrote what you did..you certainly were not offensive...in fact, I have never seen an offensive post from you at all, so please don't worry about it I did find your questioning my credibility to be a personal attack. well that makes me feel bad now...I wasn't questioning your credibility...I was wondering why you wrote as you did...I sincerely was not attacking you...I'm sorry you felt that way In no way do I assume that everyone who disagrees is just confused. I was assuming that because I found the OP's statement to be confusing, that others MAY have also. I did not take into account my handicap which was the primary cause of my misreading it and confusing me. Again, I am truly sorry to have caused you consternation as that was not my intention at all...you are always very polite... Please accept my apology as I had no intention of hurting you...I was curious why you said what you did in your post...but please, do not think I assume or think anything bad of you because that would not be true at all Are we OK? I hope so Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sevenseas Posted April 12, 2013 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 30 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 3,373 Content Per Day: 0.76 Reputation: 683 Days Won: 22 Joined: 02/28/2012 Status: Offline Share Posted April 12, 2013 http://www.bluelette...ngs=H5903&t=KJV Thought you might like to see this. I have often thought that they might have lost something more than their innocence. People who have had dreams/visions and or NDE's often say they see Jesus clothed in bright light, and it is thought that is perhaps what the first couple lost when they sinned - their clothing of light which represents Holiness, but to my knowledge we have no proof of this. If the verses you added in post 10 pertain to this heavenly light as clothing, it is not spelled out clearly enough for most of us. In time we will see for our self! interesting....I would not base my belief on a vision or a dream, however, the Bible does record the transfiguration... Matthew 17:1–9, Mark 9:2-8, Luke 9:28–36) describe it and II Peter 1: 16-18 refers to it also; but Jesus is the Son of God and not created. The gospels record that Jesus began to shine and then Moses and Elijah appear with Him in that light. Dreams and visions do not substantiate the Bible...if anything, it is the other way around. We need to be careful here, because some people claim to see auras and that is not a Christian concept either. There are any manner of things the devil attempts to fool us with and no I'm not going to stop saying this because it is in scripture and people should be aware that just because it is spiritual, it is not automatically credible and it is not automatically holy and authenticated by God. The Bible is plain on this and we are warned over and over concerning deception in the last days.....the devil is very good at imitating...in fact, he comes as an angel of light Now if I have said anything here that is offensive, please understand that all that I have stated is actually in the Bible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
*Zion* Posted April 13, 2013 Group: Royal Member Followers: 16 Topic Count: 154 Topics Per Day: 0.04 Content Count: 3,245 Content Per Day: 0.78 Reputation: 2,397 Days Won: 9 Joined: 12/09/2012 Status: Offline Birthday: 05/11/1984 Author Share Posted April 13, 2013 No Willemina, this was not a dream or vision-based explanation, I was just looking at other scriptures, such as others have given: Jesus/God wrapping himself with light as with a garment, the transfiguration, Moses' face shining as he spent more and more time in God's presence, God being an all consuming fire, us being covered by his righteousness instead of filthy rags (our effort) Zechariah 3v1-5: Joshua clothed in clean garments... plus the scriptures that I replied with in response to the initial reactions people gave, which I'm guessing nobody really took notice of, but I could be wrong: 2Corinthians5v2-4 and Matthew22v1-14. I provided the actual words of scripture with the references, please go back and check them out if interested. Thanks for your responses, Willemina, I really thought about what you had to say. You don't have to apologise for anything at all. Please do continue to respond, I look forward to hearing more of what you have to say. Blessings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xero Posted April 13, 2013 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 5 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 365 Content Per Day: 0.08 Reputation: 90 Days Won: 6 Joined: 03/16/2012 Status: Offline Share Posted April 13, 2013 Thats what I see in the living allegory of the fig leaf and the animal skin covering of mans shame. Do you think this was a real event or only an allegory? After reading Galatians 4 and seeing how real events of Abrahams life were also allegorical it made me think of being made in image and likeness as a form of living, breathing, symbolism. Imagery and simile. We live by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God so in an abstract sense we are literal figures of speech. I havent found a term that expresses the concept so I use living in front of it wether its a parable, metaphor, simile, allegory, etc. if its a real event and has spiritual signifigance beyond the literal. Im not trying to coin a new conceptual understanding I just dont have a term to use thats prepackaged to convey a literal object being also simultaneously a figurative subject. Im sorry for the confusion but yes I do take the Bible literally. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xero Posted April 13, 2013 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 5 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 365 Content Per Day: 0.08 Reputation: 90 Days Won: 6 Joined: 03/16/2012 Status: Offline Share Posted April 13, 2013 No Willemina, this was not a dream or vision-based explanation, I was just looking at other scriptures, such as others have given: Jesus/God wrapping himself with light as with a garment, the transfiguration, Moses' face shining as he spent more and more time in God's presence, God being an all consuming fire, us being covered by his righteousness instead of filthy rags (our effort) Zechariah 3v1-5: Joshua clothed in clean garments... plus the scriptures that I replied with in response to the initial reactions people gave, which I'm guessing nobody really took notice of, but I could be wrong: 2Corinthians5v2-4 and Matthew22v1-14. I provided the actual words of scripture with the references, please go back and check them out if interested. Thanks for your responses, Willemina, I really thought about what you had to say. You don't have to apologise for anything at all. Please do continue to respond, I look forward to hearing more of what you have to say. Blessings. I responded to your second post Man was not immortal before the fall: Genesis 3:2 "And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:" We werent "unclothed" of immortality we were completely naked, neither mortal nor immortal, before being clothed in mortality and now we groan not to be naked of the mortal flesh but to be clothed with immortality like Jesus when He was raised. Youre looking at the end and saying it was there to begin with and we were robbed of immortality somehow. We "clothed" ourself in mortality when we ate the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil because we wouldnt be mortal without having eaten from it but without eating the fruit of the tree of life we werent immortal. The lust of the eyes makes the image and likeness of God shameful to look upon and that is how wicked sin is. We try to cover ourselves with our own works when only the blood of the Lamb can cover us. Thats what I see in the living allegory of the fig leaf and the animal skin covering of mans shame. Clothing is a symbol of our shame and weve made it into fine art like a monument to sin. Theres symbolism everywhere but what youre saying about Adam being divested of a spiritual covering is inaccurate. God has always been our shelter. Youre taking clothed in the reference to becoming immortal from 2 Corinthians 5:2 to mean that Adam was "unclothed" of immortality which it doesnt say. Were clothed in the mortal flesh and we dont want to be naked of the flesh were groaning to put on immortality like Jesus when He was raised. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
*Zion* Posted April 13, 2013 Group: Royal Member Followers: 16 Topic Count: 154 Topics Per Day: 0.04 Content Count: 3,245 Content Per Day: 0.78 Reputation: 2,397 Days Won: 9 Joined: 12/09/2012 Status: Offline Birthday: 05/11/1984 Author Share Posted April 13, 2013 Thank you Xero. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xero Posted April 13, 2013 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 5 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 365 Content Per Day: 0.08 Reputation: 90 Days Won: 6 Joined: 03/16/2012 Status: Offline Share Posted April 13, 2013 Thank you Xero. Youre welcome. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
*Zion* Posted April 14, 2013 Group: Royal Member Followers: 16 Topic Count: 154 Topics Per Day: 0.04 Content Count: 3,245 Content Per Day: 0.78 Reputation: 2,397 Days Won: 9 Joined: 12/09/2012 Status: Offline Birthday: 05/11/1984 Author Share Posted April 14, 2013 Another portion of scripture for us all to consider in this specific discussion: Revelation 3: 14 And to the angel (messenger) of the assembly (church) in Laodicea write: These are the words of the Amen, the trusty and faithful and true Witness, the Origin and Beginning and Author of God’s creation: 15 I know your [record of] works and what you are doing; you are neither cold nor hot. Would that you were cold or hot! 16 So, because you are lukewarm and neither cold nor hot, I will spew you out of My mouth! 17 For you say, I am rich; I have prospered and grown wealthy, and I am in need of nothing; and you do not realize and understand that you are wretched, pitiable, poor, blind, and naked. 18 Therefore I counsel you to purchase from Me gold refined and tested by fire, that you may be [truly] wealthy, and white clothes to clothe you and to keep the shame of your nudity from being seen, and salve to put on your eyes, that you may see. 19 Those whom I [dearly and tenderly] love, I tell their faults and convict and convince and reprove and chasten [i discipline and instruct them]. So be enthusiastic and in earnest and burning with zeal and repent [changing your mind and attitude]. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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