King Saul's possession

[Willa]

Nin, I don't see that anyone in the OT had received Jesus as the Messiah. He was not born yet and remained a promise but still and unknown.

Jn 1:12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His Name: who were born not of blood, nor of the will of flesh, but of God."

I knew nothing of dispensationalism when I was in the Lutheran Church but as a very young Christian I understood that Christ must be received into our lives. Some people think this is done by way of the sacrements. But I don't think it is limited to that. When God lives in us today, the word means to make His home in us. He puts His seal on us as a down payment of our eternal redemption. Prior to Jesus' resurrection I do not see this happening. I see no place in the OT where it states that they were born again of the Holy Spirit, or that they were sealed by the Holy Spirit.

Likewise, I do not see anyplace in the NT after the resurrection that those who are truly born again have the Spirit leave them or be taken from them as happened in the OT.

Please guide me to scriptures that resolve this. I don't see that the ones you keep repeating address this at all.

[Guest ninhao]

Nin, I don't see that anyone in the OT had received Jesus as the Messiah. He was not born yet and remained a promise but still and unknown.

Jn 1:12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His Name: who were born not of blood, nor of the will of flesh, but of God."

I knew nothing of dispensationalism when I was in the Lutheran Church but as a very young Christian I understood that Christ must be received into our lives. Some people think this is done by way of the sacrements. But I don't think it is limited to that. When God lives in us today, the word means to make His home in us. He puts His seal on us as a down payment of our eternal redemption. Prior to Jesus' resurrection I do not see this happening. I see no place in the OT where it states that they were born again of the Holy Spirit, or that they were sealed by the Holy Spirit.

Likewise, I do not see anyplace in the NT after the resurrection that those who are truly born again have the Spirit leave them or be taken from them as happened in the OT.

Please guide me to scriptures that resolve this. I don't see that the ones you keep repeating address this at all.

Hello Willamina,

Before we begin, and so that we know where we stand, how and when do you suggest the pre- Christ Saints were born again ?

Joh 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

I hope you don't mind if I attempt to have our discussion follow a reasoned path rather than wildly posting scriptures at each other.

[BlessedByTheBest]

OT = the Holy Spirit was with believers and dwelt within chosen men.

Day of Christ's Resurrection = the Holy Spirit was in the apostles(as He is within us).

John 20:21 Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you.

John 20:22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:

2Co 1:21 Now he which stablisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, is God;

2Co 1:22 Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.

Pentecost = the Holy Spirit came upon them and filled them???

Act 2:1 And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.

Act 2:2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.

Act 2:3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.

Act 2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

what was the difference between Christ's breathing on them when he appeared after His resurrection, and what they received on Pentecost???

[Willa]

Nin, I agree with you that the filling of the Holy Spirit for power to accomplish God's will was something that also occurred in the OT. Elisha was a prime example. That infilling then as today may come and go. Otherwise we would not be admonished to not be drunk with wine--but to (keep on being filled ---present progressive tense in the Greek) be filled with the Holy Spirit, speaking to one another in psalms-- Eph 5:18 We also seen the term "and they were all filled with the Holy Spirit" used frequently when the same people were involved who had previously been filled. So I agree that this infilling for power may come and go now as in the OT.

However, the born again indwelling of the Holy Spirit I do not see occurring in the OT. John 1:12 But as many as RECEIVED Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His the name: who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God". This seems to be available to all believers who have received Christ, believing Him to be all that He claimed to be--the Messiah, the I Am, God with us, Son of God, Son of Man, God in flesh, etc.

John 20:22 reitterates the same thought. "He breathed on them and said to them, 'Receive the Holy Spirit".. I believe that this receiving of the Holy Spirit occurrs when we are born again. I believe that this is the time that God seals us for redemption and baptises us into the body of Christ. It is the Spirit of adoption of Rom 8:11. BUT I DO NOT SEE THIS HAPPENING IN THE OT. I do not see this indwelling of the Holy Spirit coming and going. It is the mark, the seal, that stays with all believers, and in dwells in all believers. Prior to receiving the Holy Spirit He may be with usand reveal things to us (Peter's confession that He is the Christ). (

I can't yet find the verse that stated He is with you, but shall be in you.)

But the point is that no where in the OT can I find where the Holy Spirit indwelt men soas to seal them. Nor do they receive the Spirit of Adoption. They do not seem to be born again of the Spirit. This indwelling, sealing, born again, adoption does not seem to depart men in the New Testament, but remains to raise them from the dead. This is how I believe the Holy Spirit acts differently for those who receive Christ.

This is why I asked you to show me were in the OT these things occur. It is also why I do not believe that He acts entirely the same in the NT as in the OT.

[Guest ninhao]

Nin, I agree with you that the filling of the Holy Spirit for power to accomplish God's will was something that also occurred in the OT. Elisha was a prime example. That infilling then as today may come and go. Otherwise we would not be admonished to not be drunk with wine--but to (keep on being filled ---present progressive tense in the Greek) be filled with the Holy Spirit, speaking to one another in psalms-- Eph 5:18 We also seen the term "and they were all filled with the Holy Spirit" used frequently when the same people were involved who had previously been filled. So I agree that this infilling for power may come and go now as in the OT.

Ok

However, the born again indwelling of the Holy Spirit I do not see occurring in the OT. John 1:12 But as many as RECEIVED Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His the name: who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God". This seems to be available to all believers who have received Christ, believing Him to be all that He claimed to be--the Messiah, the I Am, God with us, Son of God, Son of Man, God in flesh, etc.

John 20:22 reitterates the same thought. "He breathed on them and said to them, 'Receive the Holy Spirit".. I believe that this receiving of the Holy Spirit occurrs when we are born again. I believe that this is the time that God seals us for redemption and baptises us into the body of Christ. It is the Spirit of adoption of Rom 8:11. BUT I DO NOT SEE THIS HAPPENING IN THE OT.

Joh 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

It seems we agree that to be born again insists we have received the Holy Spirit inside of us. Jesus said that no one can enter the Kingdom without being born again. When do you say the OT Saints were born again ?

I do not see this indwelling of the Holy Spirit coming and going. It is the mark, the seal, that stays with all believers, and in dwells in all believers. Prior to receiving the Holy Spirit He may be with usand reveal things to us (Peter's confession that He is the Christ). (

I can't yet find the verse that stated He is with you, but shall be in you.)

I suppose, in a related manner, if you believe in OSAS, a believer may never become absent from the Holy Spirit. If you don't believe in OSAS then the Holy Spirit will leave a person if they relinquish their faith or become in enmity with God. Perhaps as Saul did ?

.

But the point is that no where in the OT can I find where the Holy Spirit indwelt men soas to seal them. Nor do they receive the Spirit of Adoption. They do not seem to be born again of the Spirit. This indwelling, sealing, born again, adoption does not seem to depart men in the New Testament, but remains to raise them from the dead. This is how I believe the Holy Spirit acts differently for those who receive Christ.

The OT Saints must be born again else they cannot enter the Kingdom. When do you say this happened and how ? I am surprised you don't think Abraham didn't have the Spirit of adoption because he had the knowledge, and assurance of the resurrection.

This is why I asked you to show me were in the OT these things occur. It is also why I do not believe that He acts entirely the same in the NT as in the OT.

The promise made to Abraham that in him all families of the Earth will be blessed points to salvation, and hence resurrection, becoming available to all people ( Gentiles etc ). This means the Holy Spirit has been "poured out" now and is thus more effusive than in the OT. The NT is very descriptive of this and shows the actions of the Holy Spirit in detail whereas this wasn't so obvious in the OT.

If I post scriptures pertaining to the Holy Spirit being IN OT believers it appears you will insist this is a "filling" and not an "indwelling". I don't see it this way.

The problem remains in your premise though Willamina, when and how were the OT Saints born again because Jesus said there is no other way to enter the Kingdom. I must reiterate this because it is fundamental to both our premises. .

[Guest ninhao]

....

what was the difference between Christ's breathing on them when he appeared after His resurrection, and what they received on Pentecost???

:

What is in the pot ?

I believe the importance of the Holy spirit at Pentecost is in the effusiveness. It was a time when God chose to fully show the people ( ALL people especially the Jew ) that He was now indeed the Saviour of the World. As you suggested the believing disciples were already indwelt.

[Willa]

Nin, I don't see that anyone in the OT had received Jesus as the Messiah. He was not born yet and remained a promise but still and unknown.

Jn 1:12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His Name: who were born not of blood, nor of the will of flesh, but of God."

I knew nothing of dispensationalism when I was in the Lutheran Church but as a very young Christian I understood that Christ must be received into our lives. Some people think this is done by way of the sacrements. But I don't think it is limited to that. When God lives in us today, the word means to make His home in us. He puts His seal on us as a down payment of our eternal redemption. Prior to Jesus' resurrection I do not see this happening. I see no place in the OT where it states that they were born again of the Holy Spirit, or that they were sealed by the Holy Spirit.

Likewise, I do not see anyplace in the NT after the resurrection that those who are truly born again have the Spirit leave them or be taken from them as happened in the OT.

Please guide me to scriptures that resolve this. I don't see that the ones you keep repeating address this at all.

Hello Willamina,

Before we begin, and so that we know where we stand, how and when do you suggest the pre- Christ Saints were born again ?

Joh 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

I hope you don't mind if I attempt to have our discussion follow a reasoned path rather than wildly posting scriptures at each other.

I do NOT believe that people in the OT were born again. They do not appear to be the bride of Christ, but are considered guests as I understand. John 3:29 I don't know where you got the idea that I believe they are born again. I asked you how you come up with that because I do not find it mentioned in the OT. Abe was counted righteous because of his faith. I believe in salvation by faith. He believed in God's promise and looked forward to a coming redeamer. I don't understand exactly how God works it all out. I do know that the OT saints did not go into God's presence at death but went to Abe's bosem. I assume that when Christ went to hell he released those held captive there and led captivity in a triumphal procession to heaven, taking those previously held captive there with him. But I know that this is debatable. How God takes care of the details is His problem. I just know that I do not find anything in the OT that talks about anyone being born again. That appears to take place after the resurrection. I do NOT believe OSAS. I do believe there are reprobates who deny Him and quench, refuse and reject the Holy Spirit till their death. I do believe God keeps those who are fully committed to Him. The OSAS people would say they were never saved. I think there are too many warnings about departing from the living God in the Bible to back this. I hope I have clarified your questions. We may have to agree to disagree, brother, till God answers our questions in heaven. I certainly do not have all the answers. I just find no place in the OT showing that they were born again. I do find that they were justified by their faith in God's promises, and that their faith was counted as righteousness. Bless you. And thank you for making me dig.

[BlessedByTheBest]

....

what was the difference between Christ's breathing on them when he appeared after His resurrection, and what they received on Pentecost???

:

What is in the pot ?

I believe the importance of the Holy spirit at Pentecost is in the effusiveness. It was a time when God chose to fully show the people ( ALL people especially the Jew ) that He was now indeed the Saviour of the World. As you suggested the believing disciples were already indwelt.

thanks nin.

my evil herbs and spices... muhahahaha.

just out of pure curiosity then, and at risk of taking a detour here....

do you believe this effusiveness or overflowing, still happens today?

[Guest ninhao]

I do NOT believe that people in the OT were born again. They do not appear to be the bride of Christ, but are considered guests as I understand. John 3:29 I don't know where you got the idea that I believe they are born again. I asked you how you come up with that because I do not find it mentioned in the OT. Abe was counted righteous because of his faith. I believe in salvation by faith. He believed in God's promise and looked forward to a coming redeamer. I don't understand exactly how God works it all out. I do know that the OT saints did not go into God's presence at death but went to Abe's bosem. I assume that when Christ went to hell he released those held captive there and led captivity in a triumphal procession to heaven, taking those previously held captive there with him. But I know that this is debatable. How God takes care of the details is His problem. I just know that I do not find anything in the OT that talks about anyone being born again. That appears to take place after the resurrection. I do NOT believe OSAS. I do believe there are reprobates who deny Him and quench, refuse and reject the Holy Spirit till their death. I do believe God keeps those who are fully committed to Him. The OSAS people would say they were never saved. I think there are too many warnings about departing from the living God in the Bible to back this. I hope I have clarified your questions. We may have to agree to disagree, brother, till God answers our questions in heaven. I certainly do not have all the answers. I just find no place in the OT showing that they were born again. I do find that they were justified by their faith in God's promises, and that their faith was counted as righteousness. Bless you. And thank you for making me dig.

Ok Willamina thank you for your input Sister.

I would ask you to please remember -

Joh 3:3-5 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. (4) Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born? (5) Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

...

Joh 3:9-10 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be? (10) Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?

Good luck in your studies.

[Guest ninhao]

....

what was the difference between Christ's breathing on them when he appeared after His resurrection, and what they received on Pentecost???

:

What is in the pot ?

I believe the importance of the Holy spirit at Pentecost is in the effusiveness. It was a time when God chose to fully show the people ( ALL people especially the Jew ) that He was now indeed the Saviour of the World. As you suggested the believing disciples were already indwelt.

thanks nin.

my evil herbs and spices... muhahahaha.

just out of pure curiosity then, and at risk of taking a detour here....

do you believe this effusiveness or overflowing, still happens today?

Yes the Holy Spirit is poured out upon the whole world still today.

1Jn 4:13-15 Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit. (14) And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world. (15) Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.

The initial outpouring at Pentecost was to empower the new Church in it's beginnings and this was extremely effective because well, here we are