Are you still a Christian if...

[Gandalf]

Will those Christians who stand in self-righteous judgment on others retain their salvation, even if they never repent of their self-righteous attitudes?

To what are you referring to Gandalf?

The works of the spirit in contrast to the works of the flesh are evident. See below...

Gal. 5:16-25

Walking in the Spirit

¹⁶ I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. ¹⁷ For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish. ¹⁸ But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.

¹⁹ Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery,^[c] fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, ²⁰ idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, ²¹ envy, murders,^[d] drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

²² But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, ²³ gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law. ²⁴ And those who are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. ²⁵ If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. ²⁶ Let us not become conceited, provoking one another, envying one another.

God bless,

GE

So is the self righteous judgment of others a work of the flesh, which must, like sorcery, be repented of? Or is it not?

I'm asking what you mean friend. Who do you believe is being self-righteous? Curious.

I wasn't accusing anyone in particular. but I do find many Christians are "hot" on condemning sexual sin, but very forgiving of self-righteous, which Jesus was "hot" against.

[MorningGlory]

Will those Christians who stand in self-righteous judgment on others retain their salvation, even if they never repent of their self-righteous attitudes?

Only the Lord knows that one, Gandalf. Judgment for the purpose of saving someone is one thing; judgment for the purpose of sending someone to hell is quite another. Self-righteousness was the affliction of the Pharisees and Jesus called them on it.

[Hall7]

We're declared innocent (forgiven) because Jesus died on the cross for us of course. For some reason I thought "justify" meant to be judged lol. Thank God for dictionaries

Ah okay then. Yes definitions can be important when discussing issues.

So in your estimation is a person justified by works and faith as stated by another member?

God bless,

GE

No I don't because after the definition of "justified" it wouldn't make sense to say that a person is justified by works and faith. So I take my above quote back due to my miss-understanding of the word "justified".

[GoldenEagle]

We're declared innocent (forgiven) because Jesus died on the cross for us of course. For some reason I thought "justify" meant to be judged lol. Thank God for dictionaries

Ah okay then. Yes definitions can be important when discussing issues.

So in your estimation is a person justified by works and faith as stated by another member?

God bless,

GE

No I don't because after the definition of "justified" it wouldn't make sense to say that a person is justified by works and faith. So I take my above quote back due to my miss-understanding of the word "justified".

Okay glad we were able to discuss this. Definitions are an intersting thing. I would say salvation and justification are through faith in Jesus Christ which is a free gift of God.

God bless,

GE

[GoldenEagle]

Will those Christians who stand in self-righteous judgment on others retain their salvation, even if they never repent of their self-righteous attitudes?

Only the Lord knows that one, Gandalf. Judgment for the purpose of saving someone is one thing; judgment for the purpose of sending someone to hell is quite another. Self-righteousness was the affliction of the Pharisees and Jesus called them on it.

Only God can judge and send someone to hell MG. Simply stating what Scripture states... Is agreeing with God. Is that being judgmental?

God bless,

GE

[Guest]

Lot's of people like to think that because we profess that we are saved by grace through faith alone, that we don't think that works are involved. They are. But not to gain salvation or to maintain or keep it. Works come from having and showing an appreciation for our salvation through Jesus Christ. I do good works to please my heavenly Father because He has shown mercy upon me by offering me salvation and grace upon me when I chose to accept it. For grace is giving something to someone who does not deserve it and mercy is not punishing someone when they do deserve it. I do not believe that because I am saved that I have the opportunity to sin at will without repercussions. There are always consequences for my actions, good or bad. I do everything that I can to obey my Lord; sometimes - more times than I like to admit - I fail. Confession is good for the soul, and when I come to the Lord and admit my failure, I return to fellowship with Him. If I don't confess, than I am no longer in fellowship with Him and probably don't receive all the blessings that He has planned for me. If I choose to remain out of fellowship with my Lord, He Will remove His hedge of protection from me and let the forces of this world have at me. He may even take my life to spare me from some unknown consequence of my actions. That is the consequence of being "backslidden" or unrepentant or from living in sin. Yet GOD have promised me that no matter what I do, no matter where I go, and no matter who I know, He will never leave or forsake me. Nor will He allow anything, not even myself, to take away what He has freely given me, which is salvation through Jesus Christ.

Now there are those who are fond of demanding scriptural chapter and verse when we talk about these things, throwing out the Bereans as an example. They searched out the scriptures to confirm what they were being taught. Think about that. How were they taught? Where were they taught? What scriptures did they have available to them? They were taught by word of mouth from eye witnesses and those who knew these witnesses. They were taught by letters. They were taught in the synagogs, in the public square, in small groups in people's homes. The only scriptures that they had was the Torah. So when followers of Christ talk to other followers, it is disingenuous that those who demand proof of what a brother or sister relates when they know exactly where these chapters and verses are and what they say. Whether they agree with the interpretation or not. I'm not talking about unbelievers, or those who have never read scripture, or those who have little understanding of their meaning, but those who are well versed with scripture.

But, just to show that what I believe is supported in scripture, I will post some;

1 Corinthians 3:10-15; 1 Corinthians 5:17,19-20; 1 Corinthians 9:25-27;

Ephesians 1:13-14;

John 3:16; John 6:28-29,37-40; John 9:41; John 10:27-30; John 15:1-6;

2 Corinthians 1:21-22; 2 Corinthians 5:21;

1 John 2:19;

Romans 3:21-22; Romans 8:30,38-39;

Colossians 2:13-14;

Hebrews 10:14;

2 Thessalonians 2:9-10;

2 Peter 1:5-10; 2 Peter 2:20-21;

Matthew 13:22;

2 Timothy 3:16;

Philippians 2:5-13.

[Elhanan]

Lot's of people like to think that because we profess that we are saved by grace through faith alone, that we don't think that works are involved. They are. But not to gain salvation or to maintain or keep it. Works come from having and showing an appreciation for our salvation through Jesus Christ. I do good works to please my heavenly Father because He has shown mercy upon me by offering me salvation and grace upon me when I chose to accept it. For grace is giving something to someone who does not deserve it and mercy is not punishing someone when they do deserve it. I do not believe that because I am saved that I have the opportunity to sin at will without repercussions. There are always consequences for my actions, good or bad. I do everything that I can to obey my Lord; sometimes - more times than I like to admit - I fail. Confession is good for the soul, and when I come to the Lord and admit my failure, I return to fellowship with Him. If I don't confess, than I am no longer in fellowship with Him and probably don't receive all the blessings that He has planned for me. If I choose to remain out of fellowship with my Lord, He Will remove His hedge of protection from me and let the forces of this world have at me. He may even take my life to spare me from some unknown consequence of my actions. That is the consequence of being "backslidden" or unrepentant or from living in sin. Yet GOD have promised me that no matter what I do, no matter where I go, and no matter who I know, He will never leave or forsake me. Nor will He allow anything, not even myself, to take away what He has freely given me, which is salvation through Jesus Christ.

Now there are those who are fond of demanding scriptural chapter and verse when we talk about these things, throwing out the Bereans as an example. They searched out the scriptures to confirm what they were being taught. Think about that. How were they taught? Where were they taught? What scriptures did they have available to them? They were taught by word of mouth from eye witnesses and those who knew these witnesses. They were taught by letters. They were taught in the synagogs, in the public square, in small groups in people's homes. The only scriptures that they had was the Torah. So when followers of Christ talk to other followers, it is disingenuous that those who demand proof of what a brother or sister relates when they know exactly where these chapters and verses are and what they say. Whether they agree with the interpretation or not. I'm not talking about unbelievers, or those who have never read scripture, or those who have little understanding of their meaning, but those who are well versed with scripture.

But, just to show that what I believe is supported in scripture, I will post some;

1 Corinthians 3:10-15; 1 Corinthians 5:17,19-20; 1 Corinthians 9:25-27;

Ephesians 1:13-14;

John 3:16; John 6:28-29,37-40; John 9:41; John 10:27-30; John 15:1-6;

2 Corinthians 1:21-22; 2 Corinthians 5:21;

1 John 2:19;

Romans 3:21-22; Romans 8:30,38-39;

Colossians 2:13-14;

Hebrews 10:14;

2 Thessalonians 2:9-10;

2 Peter 1:5-10; 2 Peter 2:20-21;

Matthew 13:22;

2 Timothy 3:16;

Philippians 2:5-13.

 

Lot's of people like to think that because we profess that we are saved by grace through faith alone, that we don't think that works are involved. They are. But not to gain salvation or to maintain or keep it. Works come from having and showing an appreciation for our salvation through Jesus Christ. I do good works to please my heavenly Father because He has shown mercy upon me by offering me salvation and grace upon me when I chose to accept it. For grace is giving something to someone who does not deserve it and mercy is not punishing someone when they do deserve it. I do not believe that because I am saved that I have the opportunity to sin at will without repercussions. There are always consequences for my actions, good or bad. I do everything that I can to obey my Lord; sometimes - more times than I like to admit - I fail. Confession is good for the soul, and when I come to the Lord and admit my failure, I return to fellowship with Him. If I don't confess, than I am no longer in fellowship with Him and probably don't receive all the blessings that He has planned for me. If I choose to remain out of fellowship with my Lord, He Will remove His hedge of protection from me and let the forces of this world have at me. He may even take my life to spare me from some unknown consequence of my actions. That is the consequence of being "backslidden" or unrepentant or from living in sin. Yet GOD have promised me that no matter what I do, no matter where I go, and no matter who I know, He will never leave or forsake me. Nor will He allow anything, not even myself, to take away what He has freely given me, which is salvation through Jesus Christ.

Now there are those who are fond of demanding scriptural chapter and verse when we talk about these things, throwing out the Bereans as an example. They searched out the scriptures to confirm what they were being taught. Think about that. How were they taught? Where were they taught? What scriptures did they have available to them? They were taught by word of mouth from eye witnesses and those who knew these witnesses. They were taught by letters. They were taught in the synagogs, in the public square, in small groups in people's homes. The only scriptures that they had was the Torah. So when followers of Christ talk to other followers, it is disingenuous that those who demand proof of what a brother or sister relates when they know exactly where these chapters and verses are and what they say. Whether they agree with the interpretation or not. I'm not talking about unbelievers, or those who have never read scripture, or those who have little understanding of their meaning, but those who are well versed with scripture.

But, just to show that what I believe is supported in scripture, I will post some;

1 Corinthians 3:10-15; 1 Corinthians 5:17,19-20; 1 Corinthians 9:25-27;

Ephesians 1:13-14;

John 3:16; John 6:28-29,37-40; John 9:41; John 10:27-30; John 15:1-6;

2 Corinthians 1:21-22; 2 Corinthians 5:21;

1 John 2:19;

Romans 3:21-22; Romans 8:30,38-39;

Colossians 2:13-14;

Hebrews 10:14;

2 Thessalonians 2:9-10;

2 Peter 1:5-10; 2 Peter 2:20-21;

Matthew 13:22;

2 Timothy 3:16;

Philippians 2:5-13.

You reply makes little if any sense. If I understand you correctly you minimize the use of scripture by claiming that the Bereans only had the Torah, amongst other methods.  Last time I checked, the Torah was still in my Old Testament. You claim the Bereans were taught by letters.  Last time I checked, the Epistles were still in my New Testament.  Two believers studying the exact same scripture can arrive at totally different interpretations. That's how we arrive at different doctrines and theologies, not to mention denominations.  That's why it's necessary to cite chapter/verse and your understanding (which includes interpretation & application) of what is written.  Simply listing a bunch of verses as you have done does not validate whatever point you were trying to get across and amounts to proof texting which makes for a very weak argument.

[MeCajunboy]

Are you still a Christian if you live in unrepentant sin? For example, lets say a person frequently commits homosexual/adultery/sexual immorality acts, they know it is wrong but yet they continue to do it by ignoring scripture. Are they still a christian? Also lets say a person reads scripture and uses it to justify their sexual immorality even if that is not the purpose. If they ignore those who explains the real meaning of the scripture and they ignore the claim are they still a Christian. Overall if a person is unrepentant in sin or even twists the scripture to accept their sin are they really a Christian?

-these examples are for a person who already claims they are Christian.

To be a "Christian" means to strive to live as Christ did.  God knows we all sin, but he also knows our hearts and minds.. Together with God's support and grace we can commit ourselves to anything we want to.  If  a person stays as near to God each and every day in every way, the LORD will be pleased and will help the individual leave his sin far behind...I say this because I discovered this many many years ago my own self.

[Elhanan]

 

 

 

 

Please clarify this in bold. Salvation is through God's grace through faith in Jesus Christ. It is a free gift of God and not a result of works. Grace would no longer be grace if justification was through works.

 

Your statement makes it appear as if we are justified by grace. Only faith in the blood of Christ is the means by which we are justified. More precisely, we are not justified by faith in the love, grace, and mercy of God; but by faith in that which the love, mercy, and grace of God have provided, namely the blood of Christ. God's grace is the means by which we are able to come to faith. The real question then is whether faith and works are incompatible which I will attempt to refute below.

 

Ephesians 2:8-9

For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

 

It has somehow become common to label “works” as a bad word and thus being antithetical to faith. However in Scripture, not all works carry a negative connotation so it is critical to define and differentiate the word “works.” According to the above verses we are indeed saved by faith and not by our works – that is, those deeds done in our own strength and flesh. In this verse Paul condemns those works of our own doing as they count for nothing. However in the very next verse we see that God created us for the expressed purpose of doing good works. “For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.” No where in all of Scripture are followers of Christ condemned for works or deeds done out of obedience to God, yet there are those who still equate obedience with works done in the flesh.

Romans 11:6

But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace.

Through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe... We are justified by God's grace through redemption in Jesus Christ.

Romans 3:21-31

The Righteousness of God Through Faith

²¹ But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it— ²² the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: ²³ for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, ²⁴ and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, ²⁵ whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins. ²⁶ It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

²⁷ Then what becomes of our boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? By a law of works? No, but by the law of faith. ²⁸ For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law. ²⁹ Or is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, ³⁰ since God is one—who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith. ³¹ Do we then overthrow the law by this faith? By no means! On the contrary, we uphold the law.

 

Your citation of Romans fails to take into account that the works that Paul specifically refers to is: “works of the law” in vs. 28. In other words Paul in his letter to the Roman brethren instructs them that it is useless to do works or deeds in keeping with the Mosaic law. Rom 3:20 states: “Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

 

I have attempted to demonstrate that we are not justified by works done in our flesh nor by works done by observing the Law. However, deeds done in obedience to the leading of the Holy Spirit demonstrate and reflect genuine faith. Saving faith and good works go hand in hand. They cannot be separated.

 

 

Edited June 2, 2013 by Elhanan

[Gandalf]

 

 

Will those Christians who stand in self-righteous judgment on others retain their salvation, even if they never repent of their self-righteous attitudes?

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Only the Lord knows that one, Gandalf. Judgment for the purpose of saving someone is one thing; judgment for the purpose of sending someone to hell is quite another. Self-righteousness was the affliction of the Pharisees and Jesus called them on it.

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Only God can judge and send someone to hell MG. Simply stating what Scripture states... Is agreeing with God. Is that being judgmental?

God bless,

GE

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It can be when, as is often the case, we are highly selective about the bits of Scripture we direct at other people!