The Confusing thing about the Rapture is...

[Elhanan]

I have just refuted every point you have made and you have not specifically responded to my counterpoints.  Instead, you are wedded to a dispensational viewpoint which forces you to eisegete rather than exegete the scriptures and consequently your argument falls on its own accord.  Let me demonstrate the folly of your position.  Since you are pre-trib you believe that the church is raptured before the 7 year tribulation.  Therefore it is the Jews to whom God is dealing with during this tribulation time.  The problem with your claim is that the word "saints" which is mentioned throughout the book of Revelation always refers to the church in the NT.  Israel is never referred to as the "saints". Secondly, as I pointed out earlier in Rev 7:14 there are those who are coming out of the great tribulation - who are these people?  You claim they are the Jews to whom God is ministering to during the great tribulation.  Your claim is bogus as Rev 7:9-10 clearly describes them as "a great multitude that no one could number, from every nation, from all tribes and peoples and languages, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, with palm branches in their hands, and crying out with a loud voice, “Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!”  This certainly does not describe the nation of Israel and clearly demonstrates that either your pre-trib position is wrong as Rev 7:9 is describing the church coming out of the great tribulation. If you still protest and blindly stick with your pre-tribulation belief that the church is raptured before the tribulation, then you have no choice but to characterize these people described in Rev 7:9-10 as "tribulation saints" - i.e. those who repent and come to Christ after the supposed rapture and during the tribulation.  But then that would destroy your own argument that no one comes to repentance during the tribulation.  You cannot have your cake and eat it too.

[Floatingaxe]

I have just refuted every point you have made and you have not specifically responded to my counterpoints.  Instead, you are wedded to a dispensational viewpoint which forces you to eisegete rather than exegete the scriptures and consequently your argument falls on its own accord.  Let me demonstrate the folly of your position.  Since you are pre-trib you believe that the church is raptured before the 7 year tribulation.  Therefore it is the Jews to whom God is dealing with during this tribulation time.  The problem with your claim is that the word "saints" which is mentioned throughout the book of Revelation always refers to the church in the NT.  Israel is never referred to as the "saints". Secondly, as I pointed out earlier in Rev 7:14 there are those who are coming out of the great tribulation - who are these people?  You claim they are the Jews to whom God is ministering to during the great tribulation.  Your claim is bogus as Rev 7:9-10 clearly describes them as "a great multitude that no one could number, from every nation, from all tribes and peoples and languages, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, with palm branches in their hands, and crying out with a loud voice, “Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!”  This certainly does not describe the nation of Israel and clearly demonstrates that either your pre-trib position is wrong as Rev 7:9 is describing the church coming out of the great tribulation. If you still protest and blindly stick with your pre-tribulation belief that the church is raptured before the tribulation, then you have no choice but to characterize these people described in Rev 7:9-10 as "tribulation saints" - i.e. those who repent and come to Christ after the supposed rapture and during the tribulation.  But then that would destroy your own argument that no one comes to repentance during the tribulation.  You cannot have your cake and eat it too.

 

You have attempted to refute what I believe, but there is no such hard and fast refutation, really. Despite your fancy words, I rely on what Holy Spirit says to me. God is dispensational, and has always been so, no matter what you choose to think.

 

As for 'saints', they are all who have received the Messiah, which includes Jews. Revelation 7:9-10 refers to all those who come to Christ during the Tribulation. There will be some! However the word of God does tells us many times how the wicked refuse to repent despite the many opportunities they are given in the onslaught of the judgments of God. These are NOT the Church, but are added in as Tribulation saints.

 

I simply take God's word for what it says.

[Elhanan]

 

I have just refuted every point you have made and you have not specifically responded to my counterpoints.  Instead, you are wedded to a dispensational viewpoint which forces you to eisegete rather than exegete the scriptures and consequently your argument falls on its own accord.  Let me demonstrate the folly of your position.  Since you are pre-trib you believe that the church is raptured before the 7 year tribulation.  Therefore it is the Jews to whom God is dealing with during this tribulation time.  The problem with your claim is that the word "saints" which is mentioned throughout the book of Revelation always refers to the church in the NT.  Israel is never referred to as the "saints". Secondly, as I pointed out earlier in Rev 7:14 there are those who are coming out of the great tribulation - who are these people?  You claim they are the Jews to whom God is ministering to during the great tribulation.  Your claim is bogus as Rev 7:9-10 clearly describes them as "a great multitude that no one could number, from every nation, from all tribes and peoples and languages, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, with palm branches in their hands, and crying out with a loud voice, “Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!”  This certainly does not describe the nation of Israel and clearly demonstrates that either your pre-trib position is wrong as Rev 7:9 is describing the church coming out of the great tribulation. If you still protest and blindly stick with your pre-tribulation belief that the church is raptured before the tribulation, then you have no choice but to characterize these people described in Rev 7:9-10 as "tribulation saints" - i.e. those who repent and come to Christ after the supposed rapture and during the tribulation.  But then that would destroy your own argument that no one comes to repentance during the tribulation.  You cannot have your cake and eat it too.

 

You have attempted to refute what I believe, but there is no such hard and fast refutation, really. Despite your fancy words, I rely on what Holy Spirit says to me. God is dispensational, and has always been so, no matter what you choose to think.

 

As for 'saints', they are all who have received the Messiah, which includes Jews. Revelation 7:9-10 refers to all those who come to Christ during the Tribulation. There will be some! However the word of God does tells us many times how the wicked refuse to repent despite the many opportunities they are given in the onslaught of the judgments of God. These are NOT the Church, but are added in as Tribulation saints.

 

I simply take God's word for what it says.

 

Yes there is no hard and fast refutation for those who refuse to interact with the scriptural text and rely upon their unfounded opinion but that of course is your prerogative. No fancy words here; just straight forward reading of the text minus your doctrinal bias. You initially made the broad and unsubstantiated claim that "none of those who suffer the judgments repent."  Now after my reply, you backtrack and admit "there will be some."  If you think you take the word of God for what it says by all means go for it.  I'll just cease posting on this thread since it is quite non-productive.

Edited July 3, 2013 by Elhanan

[Floatingaxe]

 

 

I have just refuted every point you have made and you have not specifically responded to my counterpoints.  Instead, you are wedded to a dispensational viewpoint which forces you to eisegete rather than exegete the scriptures and consequently your argument falls on its own accord.  Let me demonstrate the folly of your position.  Since you are pre-trib you believe that the church is raptured before the 7 year tribulation.  Therefore it is the Jews to whom God is dealing with during this tribulation time.  The problem with your claim is that the word "saints" which is mentioned throughout the book of Revelation always refers to the church in the NT.  Israel is never referred to as the "saints". Secondly, as I pointed out earlier in Rev 7:14 there are those who are coming out of the great tribulation - who are these people?  You claim they are the Jews to whom God is ministering to during the great tribulation.  Your claim is bogus as Rev 7:9-10 clearly describes them as "a great multitude that no one could number, from every nation, from all tribes and peoples and languages, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, with palm branches in their hands, and crying out with a loud voice, “Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!”  This certainly does not describe the nation of Israel and clearly demonstrates that either your pre-trib position is wrong as Rev 7:9 is describing the church coming out of the great tribulation. If you still protest and blindly stick with your pre-tribulation belief that the church is raptured before the tribulation, then you have no choice but to characterize these people described in Rev 7:9-10 as "tribulation saints" - i.e. those who repent and come to Christ after the supposed rapture and during the tribulation.  But then that would destroy your own argument that no one comes to repentance during the tribulation.  You cannot have your cake and eat it too.

 

You have attempted to refute what I believe, but there is no such hard and fast refutation, really. Despite your fancy words, I rely on what Holy Spirit says to me. God is dispensational, and has always been so, no matter what you choose to think.

 

As for 'saints', they are all who have received the Messiah, which includes Jews. Revelation 7:9-10 refers to all those who come to Christ during the Tribulation. There will be some! However the word of God does tells us many times how the wicked refuse to repent despite the many opportunities they are given in the onslaught of the judgments of God. These are NOT the Church, but are added in as Tribulation saints.

 

I simply take God's word for what it says.

 

Yes there is no hard and fast refutation for those who refuse to interact with the scriptural text and rely upon their unfounded opinion but that of course is your prerogative. No fancy words here; just straight forward reading of the text minus your doctrinal bias. You initially made the broad and unsubstantiated claim that "none of those who suffer the judgments repent."  Now after my reply, you backtrack and admit "there will be some."  If you think you take the word of God for what it says by all means go for it.  I'll just cease posting on this thread since it is quite non-productive.

 

 

No--there is no refutation that exists for one view or the other. We are free to discern what the end will be like according to what we study in the word of God. What we are NOT free to do is to argue, debate and belittle those who differ with us.

 

I read in several places that the wicked do not repent after each catastrophic judgment God sends. It s substantiated. Take it for what it's worth. I never backtrack. God's word says none repent, and God's word says there are those who come out of the Tribulation as saints. What does that mean to you? To me, those who come to Christ are Jews---from every nation and tribe and tongue. Israel will be saved.

 

Yes, you continue to repeat the same song and dance. Maybe it's time to let others have their say.

[Montana Marv]

A question must be asked from Rev 7:14 -These are they who have come out of the great tribulation,  They have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

 

Why did "they" have to wash their own robes?  The "they" did the washing, they each washed their own outer garment.

 

But we as Christian Believers in 1 Cor 6:11 - But you were washed, you were sanctified, your were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

 

Here, who did the washing, sanctifying and justifying?  Not us. but Christ.  One the other hand, this multitude out of the great tribulation had to wash their own robes.  Two distinct groups of peoples.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

[missmuffet]

Elanan just likes to argue.Some people are like that you know.

[Elhanan]

A question must be asked from Rev 7:14 -These are they who have come out of the great tribulation,  They have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

 

Why did "they" have to wash their own robes?  The "they" did the washing, they each washed their own outer garment.

 

But we as Christian Believers in 1 Cor 6:11 - But you were washed, you were sanctified, your were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

 

Here, who did the washing, sanctifying and justifying?  Not us. but Christ.  One the other hand, this multitude out of the great tribulation had to wash their own robes.  Two distinct groups of peoples.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

We were washed upon initial repentance and continue to be washed as we continue to repent of known sin in our lives.  Unless we do that, it is possible to dirty or soil our garments.  In Rev 3 the majority of the church in Sardis is warned to wake up lest the Lord come as a thief. Only a small minority in the Sardis church kept their garments clean and are found to be worthy as overcomers. Those who fail to overcome will have their names erased from the book of life.

So remember ^]what you have received and heard; and keep it, and repent. Therefore if you do not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what hour I will come to you.  But you have a few people in Sardis who have not soiled their garments; and they will walk with Me in white, for they are worthy.  He who overcomes will thus be clothed in white garments; and I will not erase his name from the book of life, and I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels. Rev 3:3-5

[Montana Marv]

Elhanan

 

These who are the over comers have been doing so for almost 2,000 years.  Yet none of them will go through the great tribulation period (last half of the 70 week of Daniel). They went through their own times of trials and tribulation.  So the letter to Sardis is just a message to  all the Churches as are the other letters in Rev.  Many of these over comers have already died.  So your comparison is not fully valid. You have no guarantee that you will even be around at the end of the great Tribulation.  For captivity will take its toll on the tribulation saints.  You are purchased by one with the mark of the beast, for they are the only ones who can buy or sell.  If you are a good slave, they may treat you good, if a bad slave, maybe you will be abused.  You can say goodbye to your family and friends, for you will never see them again.  If you are old, you will be beheaded - no value.  If you have medical problems, you will be beheaded, no value.  Cattle will be treated better than you will.  And you say these who come out of the great tribulation are the church, not so.  These are those who will be ruled with a rod of iron by Christ during the 1000 years.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

[Elhanan]

Elhanan

 

These who are the over comers have been doing so for almost 2,000 years.  Yet none of them will go through the great tribulation period (last half of the 70 week of Daniel). They went through their own times of trials and tribulation.  So the letter to Sardis is just a message to  all the Churches as are the other letters in Rev.  Many of these over comers have already died.  So your comparison is not fully valid. You have no guarantee that you will even be around at the end of the great Tribulation.  For captivity will take its toll on the tribulation saints.  You are purchased by one with the mark of the beast, for they are the only ones who can buy or sell.  If you are a good slave, they may treat you good, if a bad slave, maybe you will be abused.  You can say goodbye to your family and friends, for you will never see them again.  If you are old, you will be beheaded - no value.  If you have medical problems, you will be beheaded, no value.  Cattle will be treated better than you will.  And you say these who come out of the great tribulation are the church, not so.  These are those who will be ruled with a rod of iron by Christ during the 1000 years.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

Indeed. the great tribulation will be the most horrifying time the world has ever known, but as you have pointed out the difference between us is whether the church goes through it.  Since

I already referenced the Sardis church, let's take a closer look at the passage. In Rev 3 the Lord warns his church that those in Sardis who have soiled their garments and are sleeping, need to repent and wake up lest the Lord come as a thief.  Pretribbers believe in imminency - that the Lord can come back as a thief at any time and will indeed do so before the 7 year tribulation. Is that true?  Does the Bible indicate that the Lord will return as a thief before the 7 years - or some time during the tribulation?  Read: Revelation 16:15

(“Behold, I am coming like a thief. Blessed is the one who stays awake and keeps his clothes, so that he will not walk about naked and men will not see his shame.”)

This scripture specifically indicates that the Lord will return well into the tribulation period and is made reference to right in the midst of the bowl judgments.  Scripture does not contradict itself and to maintain that the rapture and the return of the Lord takes place before the tribulation does not square with this verse. That's why on numerous occasions the saints are encouraged to persevere and overcome.

[Floatingaxe]

 

Read: Revelation 16:15

(“Behold, I am coming like a thief. Blessed is the one who stays awake and keeps his clothes, so that he will not walk about naked and men will not see his shame.”)

This scripture specifically indicates that the Lord will return well into the tribulation period and is made reference to right in the midst of the bowl judgments.  Scripture does not contradict itself and to maintain that the rapture and the return of the Lord takes place before the tribulation does not square with this verse. That's why on numerous occasions the saints are encouraged to persevere and overcome.

 

 

No, scripture does not indicate what you say.

 

If the Rapture (not Christ's return) occurs mid-trib or post-trib, the Body of Christ would be able to gauge each manifestation, so Jesus' "any moment" warning would be useless, wouldn't it?

 

Matthew 24:36

“However, no one knows the day or hour when these things will happen, not even the angels in heaven or the Son himself. Only the Father knows.

 

Matthew 24:42-46

“So you, too, must keep watch! For you don’t know what day your Lord is coming. ⁴³ Understand this: If a homeowner knew exactly when a burglar was coming, he would keep watch and not permit his house to be broken into. ⁴⁴ You also must be ready all the time, for the Son of Man will come when least expected.

⁴⁵ “A faithful, sensible servant is one to whom the master can give the responsibility of managing his other household servants and feeding them. ⁴⁶ If the master returns and finds that the servant has done a good job, there will be a reward.

 

Matthew 25:13

 “So you, too, must keep watch! For you do not know the day or hour of my return.

 

Acts 1:7

He replied, “The Father alone has the authority to set those dates and times, and they are not for you to know.

 

 

 

As the early church always greeted each other with "Maranatha", which means 'the Lord come', I should think it would be rendered meaningless (according to your view), there being a lack of evidence that the Tribulation was upon them at any time.

 

 

1 Thessalonians 1:10

And they speak of how you are looking forward to the coming of God’s Son from heaven—Jesus, whom God raised from the dead. He is the one who has rescued us from the terrors of the coming judgment.

 

1 Thessalonians 5:6

So be on your guard, not asleep like the others. Stay alert and be clearheaded.