What is the GT (Great Tribulation)

[iamlamad]

 

 

But we ADD the definite article 'the' which simply isn't there in the original texts, and then BUILD AND BUILD AND BUILD on this mythological construct which isn't there at all.  Try reading the same scriptures without thinking through the 'THE Great Tribulation' colored lenses, and see what you think......

 

For one thing, Jerusalem WAS 'compassed about with armies' less than 40 years after Jesus talked about the time of great pressure.  Jerusalem's Temple WAS destroyed 'until not one stone was left upon another....'  in A.D 70!

The Tribulation is also referred by other names such a Day of the Lord.

You have some reading to do Leonard and do not come up with your own words to scripture.That is very dangerous.

Daniel 9:27

Daniel 12:11-12

Revelation 13:5

Revelation 11:2-3

 

 

The "tribulation is a poor way of identifying the 70th week of Daniel, the 7 year period of judgment coming. I say poor, because John wrote, "I John, in the tribulation..."  That was still in the first century!

 

The 70th week and the Day of the Lord begin together or very close to the same time, and run concurrenly for 7 years. The 70th week ends but the DAY of the Lord continues on.

 

Lamad

 

 

 

VEry wise to notice this. Jesus said, "those days" in association with "great tribulation." There will be DAYS of great tribuation begining with the abomination and continuing for an unknown period of time into the second half of the week. The Beast will still have his 42 months - that is not what is shortened. What is shorted is the days of GT DURING those  42 months. When God has had enough of the murder, he pours out His bowls of wrath and plagues. These are what shortens the days of GT. After the bowls, NO ONE  will be hunding down others to put them to death. They will be sitting in dark gnawing their tongues for pain, terribly thirsty with no water to drink, and hoping for some kind of relief. No one know how far into the 42 months God will allow them to go.

 

Lamad

 

 

Sorry, I did not mean to answer myself. I got the wrong button.

Edited July 4, 2013 by iamlamad

[iamlamad]

 

 

 

 For those that believe you are going to live through those days; think again: you will not live through, you will die or take the mark.

There are four words [or combinations of words in mind: tribulation, THE tribulaton, Great Tribulation, and great tribulation such as has never been and never will be agian.

 

John 16:33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

 

In the world we certainly have pressure. But it can get worse - and it WILL get worse.

 

 

 

Matthew 24:21

For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

 

Here is the WORST time of tribulation ever, coming with the image that must be worshipped or die, and the mark that prevents anyone from buying or selling without it. It will be an unprecidented time of great pressure. Why greater that the World War 2 Holocaust? Because it will be world wide and if one takes the mark, they are doomed to an eternity in the lake of fire.

 

Worse yet, it seems God is on the other side, and declared the Beast will OVERCOME the saints. For those that believe you are going to live through those days; think again: you will not live through, you will die or take the mark.

 

 

Lamad

 

 

Very interesting, Lamad.  With that said, multitudes of people in the Middle East today, as I write this, are undergoing "great tribulation".  Many Egyptian Christian  copts cannot buy or sell, hold a job, are thrown in jail, tortured, raped   unless they take the mark of the beast (surrender to allah, convert to islam)  Christians through out the Middle East in muslim countries are savagely and brutally beheaded (a catholic priest and two other Christians were recently beheaded in Syria by rebels with what some describe as a kitchen knife, and the video is being shown on the web).  So, indeed, imo, great tribulation is already under way for many and is spreading.

 

I differ with you concerning

 

 

 

 For those that believe you are going to live through those days; think again: you will not live through, you will die or take the mark.

 

In Revelation Chapter 7, we are told a great multitude will come out of great tribulation. 

 

That multitude in chapter 7 is the raptured church seen in heaven. They have JUST been raptured. it is said they come out of great tribulation. This is NOT the time Jesus spoke of that follows the abomination, for John has not yet even started the 70th week. Just as you said, it is great tribulation today in half the world, as people are being killed for their testimony. How can tribulation be greater than being killed? One cannot be killed twice. I suspect before the rapture, that will spread to all the world.  Again, chapter 7 versus chapter 13. There is 3 1/2 years between these two chapters.

 

John does not get to the midpoint and the abomination until chapter 11. Don't believe anyone who says Revelation is not in the right order. It is in God given order. any theory that must rearrange that order is immediately suspect and will be proven wrong. So the days of great tribulation spoken of by Jesus will not begin until after the abmination that divides the week. It will get worse when the image is set up and the mark established after chapter 14.

 

Lamad

 

Thank you for your reply. I cannot find where the Bible teaches the multitude in Rev. Ch. 7 is "the raptured church". That is a pre-trib theory without biblical proof, imo. and I believe the Lord's church will be here on earth during this time, as we are now. Therefore, I believe all those who are willing to die for our Lord are those multitudes John speaks of who were protected and came through great tribulation "and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb." vs. 14

 

Many Christians today are coming through great tribulation in the Middle East, being protected by our Lord Jesus Christ, so it is reasonable to believe all those "elect"or those trusting in Jesus to save them will be protected. Many will ultimately give their lives, as they are today, but I believe many will be spared and come through great tribulation, multitudes, as the scriptures show, just as Christians have shown us in the past and are doing so even now. Our Lord, in Revelation, urges Christians to endure the tribulation faithfully and patiently because He is concerned for His church on earth during these last days time. We are still living in the age of grace, and God does not have two groups of people, except for those who are saved and those who are not. There is only one "elect" people and they aret those who have accepted God's free gift of salvation through the blood of His Son Jesus Christ on the Cross. There is neither Jew nor Greek, but one body in Christ Jesus.

Be careful of pre-tribulation teachers. They have a habit of saying the word "church" is never found in Revelation from Ch. 4 thru 21, and think because "the" tribulation" period is within these chapters i.e.,6 thru 16, the absence of the word "church" means the "church" is not going to be in "the" tribulation. I find this very disturbing because it takes away the warnings Christ gave to His end-time church. Because of all of the warnings Christ gave to His end time church, it is best to heed the warnings rather to say "we'll be outta here" so no need to worry. Christ's warnings were not written for non-believers, but for His church. During tribulation, (Anti-christ's reign) God's saints on earth (His church) will be struggling to survive and wait it out until Jesus returns for us, and won't have time to pick up a Bible to read the warning signs, so it is best to take heed now.

　

　

　

　

 

When You understand John's chronology and understand that he has not yet even started the 70th week, there is simply no other choice for this great crowd that no one can number. If John had left off "great tribulation" I think all would recognize this as he raptured church. The timing is in perfect agreement with Paul who teaches us that the rapture and the Day are back to back events - that the rapture is the trigger for the Day. (1 Thes. 5)

 

If you notice Matt. 27 says "the earth did quake....and the graves were opened" and notice that there was an earthquake when the two witnesses were raised, I believe this is telling us that when God raises the dead to immortality, it will cause an earthquake. The dead in Christ are around the world, so it will cause the first worldwide earthquake, which I am convinced is Paul's sudden destruction. It is also the earthquake of the 6th seal. Many cannot believe it, but it is written nevertheless: "the day of His wrath has come." Notice in 1 Thes. 5 Paul says we have no appointment with His wrath.

 

It maters little that "church" is not used. The real pretrib scriptures are Paul in 1 Thes. 4 & 5, and this great crowd in Rev. 7. In spite of many theories, John did NOT mix up Revelation. Any theory that must rearrange Revelation is immediatly suspect and will be proven wrong. It is God given chronology. God did not show John a crowd in heaven in chapter 4 that should be in chapter 13 or 15. No, this crowd is here because the rapture had just happened.  

 

"and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb." vs. 14

 

This certainly is what the true Church has done. Are you believing these have died? There is no hint that they have died.

 

Many Christians today are coming through great tribulation in the Middle East

 

Yes, and many have been martyred too. But today is NOT "great tribulation such as has never been and never will be again" as Jesus said. "those days" of "great tribulation" spoken of by Jesus is ONLY for those days that begin at the abomination and go sime period of time into the last half of the week. Please again take note, John has not yet even started the 70th week of Daniel. It will begin with the 7th seal. (note the 30 minutes of silence before this 70th week is to begin.) Again, you cannot ignore what God has told us twice, once in Daniel and once in Revelation: that it is GIVEN by our Heavenly Father that the Beast will OVERCOME(that means WIN) the saints. That means, they will lose their life.  IT is NOT His will - for His will was that all escape this time of terrible pressure by going in the pretrib rapture. This pressure is designed to get ISRAEL in the place she will once agian have faith in God.

 

Dan 12:7

....when he shall have accomplished to scatter [shatter] the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.

 

Please remember, this is the 70th week of DANIEL....this 7 years of judgment is for the JEWS (Israel) not for the church.

 

Dan. 9

24 ...Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city....

 

"They People here refers to Daniel's people, Israel; it can mean nothing else. Jerusalem is NOT our capital city!  Many try to mix apples and oranges, and it cannot be done. This period was planned from the beginning for the JEWS. It has nothing to do with the Church. They will be called up to heaven to escape His wrath on earth.

 

Our Lord, in Revelation, urges Christians to endure the tribulation faithfully and patiently

 

IS this really true? Are they called Christians or only saints? I believe the doorway to the bride will be CLOSED at the pretrib rapture. I believe this also means the doorway to regeneration or being "born again." This door will close at the pretrib rapture, and suddenly God will continue the 69 week for the Jews with the 70th week. Will those left behind and any new believers be called Christians? Probably they will, for their faith will be in Christ. I find it VERY interesting the message of one of the angels in chaper 14 says nothing of the blood or the death, burial and resurrection of Our Lord - it only tells them to fear, give glory and worship God. How strange no mention of the SON or of His death or His blood. WHY? I believe the door was shut, just as it shows at the parable of the 10 virgins. At this time it will be back under the OLD Covenant, but yet after the death and resurrection of Our Lord. So during the 70th week, there will be many BELIEVERS. Their ONE route to heaven will be through death. But that should be easy; just submit to the authorities and say, "I am a believer." They will do the rest.

 

There is neither Jew nor Greek, but one body in Christ Jesus

 

This is true ONLY AFTER someone is born again! It is not true for Jews....they are still very much UNSAVED Jews. Gentiles are still very much unsaved Gentiles until they become born again.

 

it is best to heed the warnings rather to say "we'll be outta here" so no need to worry.

 

We must learn to recognize WHO a verse of scripture is pointing to; there are the Jews, there are the born again ones, and there are "the nations:" so three groups of people a scripture could be pointing too. SO MUCH confusion has arisen because people assume a verse is about them. Yes, there are many verses speaking to those who will be alive at His coming on the white horse, but the Bride will be coming down WITH HIM, having just finished the wedding and supper. so the verses speaking to those on earth to WATCH for His coming (on the white horse) in great glory and splender are simply not directed to His bride. But we still must watch for His next coming when He comes for His bride, for we cannot know the day nor the hour for EITHER of His comings.

 

God's saints on earth (His church) will be struggling to survive and wait it out until Jesus returns

 

Yes, certainly there will be saints on earth then, but they will NOT be His bride. His bride will escape all these things. Can we call those left behind and new believers "His church?" Are they His "called out" ones? Yes, so they can be called saints or "the church"...but if you notice in 12:17  "went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ"  WHO is the "remnant and why did John use this word? That word means only a small part of the whole. It is my guess John used this because the "MAIN LOAD" went up in the pretrib rapture. Only a remnant of belivers is left behind.  Will they be struggling, or will they just submit and lose their head, so they can go to heaven? I don't see any scripture anywhere that promises those that survive they will get to heaven. Sorry, I cannot see a rapture for these as Jesus descends in chapter 19. Besides, His direction will be DOWN, not up. It seems far more likely they will become part of the Millennial Kingdom.

 

Lamad

Edited July 4, 2013 by iamlamad

[iamlamad]

Many seem to have the idea that the great tribulation is a period of time, I used to think that way also, but have altered my thinking a bit. I also have noticed that there is not definite article (except in Revelation).

 

From (primarily) Matt 24, I am of the opinion that Jesus is primarily speaking of Daniels 70th, as something that transpires just before He returns gloriously to gather His elect before He comes to Earth. Daniels 70th week, is a 7 year (7 years of 12, 30 day months) period of time that is not the tribulation, it contains tribulation as a feature. There will be tribulation during the first 3.5 years, until the abomination of desolation, and after that the tribulation will become worse, as Jesus said then there will be great tribulation. Nothing as far as I know, says Daniels 70th week is the great tribulation, Jesus said that great tribulation is something that will mark the second half of Daniel's 70th week.

 

That is my opinion of what the great tribulation is according to the bible, the best I can understand it, without adding my or another's spin or embellishment.

 

The days of great tribulation will certainly last a certian period of time, but no one knows how long. What we do know is that the authority of the Beast will last for 42 months. Those days of GT will begin at the abomination and go for a period of time. Jesus said, "those days." As the days of pressure get worse and worse, and the killing machine of the Beast gets perfected, finally God will say that is enough, and will pour out the vials of His wrath, which will stop the Beast and his armies in their tracks, thus "shortening" those days. Some think the 1260 days or the 42 months will get shortened. this is simply not the truth.   Lamad

 

[iamlamad]

Well, my Greek sources are all packed away now, until we get into a proper home again. I would however aver that to think the Apocalypse is primarily about ANTICHRIST is incorrect. It is the 'apocaloupsis of JESUS CHRIST.' This is 1st century Jewish parlance for the BRIDE GROOM 'unveiling' and revealing His Bride at the climax of the Jewish wedding ceremony.

If there IS a 'THE Great Tribulation,' the Apostle John was IN IT in the 1st century A.D. according to the scripture as cited above by our Friend. Going from my memory (admittedly a very dicey proposition in my superannuation!), I do not think the definite article is in that passage of the Greek texts either. KJV has it as "your companion in tribulation (thlipsis, or 'pressure' as earlier noted in this thread)."

Again, as someone who has read the Bible some 50 odd times now, in 8 English translations, as well as some in Greek, Hebrew, Latin, Spanish, and even Swedish, I now try as best as I can to take off the 'lenses' through which I was trained to look at the Scriptures, and to let JUST THE SCRIPTURES speak for themselves. I wish again to iterate the notion that Jack van Impe, Hal Lindsay, the "Left Behind" series, et al, may be onto something! I certainly LOVE listening to Jack van Impe, and Hal Lindsay, and I have to say that looking at world events, greatly militates in favor of their interpretations. HOWEVER, one must make certain leaps of logic to arrive at their conclusions. At the same time 'leaps of logic' ought not to be automatically discounted. Deriving Messianic prophecy from the 'Suffering Servant' sections of the prophecy of Isaiah, certainly requires us to do so; so it is clear that sometimes such logical leaps are actually keen spiritual insights.

As the erstwhile J. Vernon McGee so wonderfully put it: "The main problem with Christians today is that they would rather know about antichrist than Jesus Christ!"

In that vein, we ought also to note that although the word 'antichrist' is ONLY used by the Apostle John, IT MOST POINTEDLY DOES NOT OCCUR AT ALL IN THE BOOK OF REVELATION! I just want us to be clear WHY we believe what we believe....

 

I am sure you know this, having studing the Greek, but the Greek for Antichrist does not only mean "against" Christ, as this word means in English. The Geek meaning is different:

 

anti

1) over against, opposite to, before

2) for, instead of, in place of (something)

a) instead of

 

This second meaning could very well be John's intended meaning, that he will come in the place of the Real Christ, since the Jews are expecting their Messiah to come. This seems to hint at what Jesus said, that someone who comes in their own name, the Jews will receive.

 

Lamad

 

[nikki1]

Hi Lamad

 

I will try to respond to your comments without getting into a lengthy "pre-trib" discussion with you as this is not the intent of thread:

 

and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb." vs. 14

 

This certainly is what the true Church has done. Are you believing these have died? There is no hint that they have died.

 

I believe what the scriptures say, which is why I have placed the scripture text here.  There is no hint that these multitudes have been "pre-trib" raptured, which is what you are reading into the text.

 

this 7 years of judgment is for the JEWS (Israel) not for the church.

 

Again, this is a pre-trib "dispensation theory" teaching  without biblical evidence or facts to back it up. 

 

IS this really true? Are they called Christians or only saints?

 

All through the letters of the NT, Paul and other NT writers  refers to Christians as being saints, who are also the New Testament church of Paul's time.  So it is reasonable to conclude that the words Christians, saints and church are one in the same and interchangeable.  Jesus Himself said in the last chapter of Revelation "I, Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches." vs 16

 

This is true ONLY AFTER someone is born again! It is not true for Jews....they are still very much UNSAVED Jews. Gentiles are still very much unsaved Gentiles until they become born again.

 

Absolutely.  I never said otherwise.  BTW, many Jews as well as muslims are now "born again".

[Guest]

 

The Tribulation is also referred by other names such a Day of the Lord.

 

 

Are you sure about that?

 

Joel 2:31  The sun will be turned into darkness And the moon into blood Before the great and awesome day of the LORD comes.

 

Matt 24    15“So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,  ,,,,,21

For then there will be great tribulation, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again.

29“Immediately after the tribulation of those days “ ‘the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’

 

Question: According to the above, the sequence is:

 

great tribulation - sun darkened - day of the Lord,

 

since the darkening of the Sun is in between the great tribulation and the day of the Lord, do you still thing the tribulation = the day of the Lord?

 

I always understood the Day of the Lord as a time where God executes vengeance and judgment on the ungodly, where-as the great tribulation appears to a time of trouble on the earth marked by persecution of the elect by mankind and the forces of evil.

[Montana Marv]

There are way to many references for "The Day of the Lord', and many have different meanings and times.  Such as 2 Peter 3:10,11 - But the 'day of the Lord" will come like a thief, the heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything in it will be laid bare.  Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be?  This is post Mill.  The day of the Lord.

 

1 Thes 5:1, 2 - Now brothers, about times and dates we do not need to write to you, for you know very well that the "day of the Lord" will come like a thief in the night, while people are saying Peace and Safety, destruction will come on them suddenly...  This "day of the Lord" is neither the Rapture or Second Coming, but a time of judgment and destruction.

 

2 Thes 2:2,3  "the day of the Lord" (Rapture) - that day will not come until....the rebellion...the man of lawlessness is revealed and he who holds him back is take out of the way.

 

Matt 24:29 - Immediately after the distress of those days....  v30 At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn, They will see the Son of Man coming in the clouds of the sky.   This "day of the Lord" is the Second Coming.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

[Guest]

Hey Marv, true enough, but I ask, is the phrase "Day of the Lord" not primarily equated to God Judging? Is it ever directly said to be the great tribulation? or is that just conjecture on the part of many? Your points on the day of the Lord are good and well taken, now, what say you about the great tribulation, the actual topic?

[Montana Marv]

Omgeaman

 

The great tribulation or the great distress spoken of in Matt 24:21 is immediately after when those in Judea are to flee to the mountains (v,15-20).  This is a reference to Daniel 9:27.  When you see standing in the holy place (Christs words).  This also corresponds to Rev 12:6 - The woman (Israel) fled into the desert to a place prepared for her by God, where she might be taken care of for 1,260 days. Rev 12:13, 14 - When the dragon saw that he had been hurled to the earth, he pursued the woman who had given birth to the male child.  The woman was given the two wings of a great eagle, so that she might fly to the place prepared for her in the desert, where she would be taken care of for a time, times and half a time out of the serpents reach. Jacobs trouble Jer 30:7,8 - How awful that day will be, None will be like it.  It will be a time of trouble for Jacob, but he will  be saved out of it.  In that day, declares the Lord Almighty, I will break the yoke off their necks and will tear off their bond, no longer will foreigners enslave them.

 

Does Scripture say about anyone else being taken care of; or just Israel.  This is the last half of the 70th week.  Who pursues Israel?  Satan, not the man of lawlessness (Antichrist).

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

[Guest]

.... but I ask, is the phrase "Day of the Lord" not primarily equated to God Judging? Is it ever directly said to be the great tribulation? or is that just conjecture on the part of many? Your points on the day of the Lord are good and well taken, now, what say you about the great tribulation, the actual topic?

 

The Great Tribulation

 

A View

 

~

 

Man's Last Ditch Attempt To Scrub Planet Earth Of Mankind

 

For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. Matthew 24:21

 

But The Lord Lights Up The Carnage Below

 

For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. Matthew 24:27

 

And Saves His

 

And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. Matthew 24:22

 

Beloved

 

Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

 

Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?

 

Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.

 

Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods. Matthew 24:44-47