What is the GT (Great Tribulation)

[iamlamad]

Hi Lamad

 

I will try to respond to your comments without getting into a lengthy "pre-trib" discussion with you as this is not the intent of thread:

 

 

 

and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb." vs. 14

 

This certainly is what the true Church has done. Are you believing these have died? There is no hint that they have died.

 

I believe what the scriptures say, which is why I have placed the scripture text here.  There is no hint that these multitudes have been "pre-trib" raptured, which is what you are reading into the text.

This thread is about the GT, so this is on track. What I read in the text is a perfect description of the Bride of Christ! Please, share with us what part of their description tells you they are NOT the bride.

 

For me it is just as much the context of the text as the text itself, for Paul wrote that the rapture would come as the trigger for the Day of the Lord and the Day of His wrath. ("God did not appointment to wrath") We read at the end of chapter 6 that the day of His wrath has come - so it fits perfectly to see the church in heaven right after this starting of wrath. I know that John does not begin the 70th week until the 7th seal, so again this fits what Paul has taught us.

 

Of course, your preconceived glasses of posttrib theory could make it very difficult to see anything that does not fit your theory. It would be very wise to take them off and read this again. There are other times "great tribulation" is mentioned

 

this 7 years of judgment is for the JEWS (Israel) not for the church.

 

Again, this is a pre-trib "dispensation theory" teaching  without biblical evidence or facts to back it up. 

Why did you not read the scripture I posted there? It is proof positive!

 

Dan 9:24

“Seventy weeks are determined For your people and for your holy city,

 

Who are Daniel's people? What is the Holy city? You KNOW the answers!

I hope you do not abscribe to the theory that the United States has become Israel! That theory is as bogus as the $3.00 bill.

 

IS this really true? Are they called Christians or only saints?

 

All through the letters of the NT, Paul and other NT writers  refers to Christians as being saints, who are also the New Testament church of Paul's time.  So it is reasonable to conclude that the words Christians, saints and church are one in the same and interchangeable.  Jesus Himself said in the last chapter of Revelation "I, Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches." vs 16

 

 

 

This is true ONLY AFTER someone is born again! It is not true for Jews....they are still very much UNSAVED Jews. Gentiles are still very much unsaved Gentiles until they become born again.

 

Absolutely.  I never said otherwise.  BTW, many Jews as well as muslims are now "born again".

 

I just wonder, WHY do you believe in a posttrib rapture when the preponderance of evidence shows pretrib?

 

Lamad

[iamlamad]

Omgeaman

 

The great tribulation or the great distress spoken of in Matt 24:21 is immediately after when those in Judea are to flee to the mountains (v,15-20).  This is a reference to Daniel 9:27.  When you see standing in the holy place (Christs words).  This also corresponds to Rev 12:6 - The woman (Israel) fled into the desert to a place prepared for her by God, where she might be taken care of for 1,260 days. Rev 12:13, 14 - When the dragon saw that he had been hurled to the earth, he pursued the woman who had given birth to the male child.  The woman was given the two wings of a great eagle, so that she might fly to the place prepared for her in the desert, where she would be taken care of for a time, times and half a time out of the serpents reach. Jacobs trouble Jer 30:7,8 - How awful that day will be, None will be like it.  It will be a time of trouble for Jacob, but he will  be saved out of it.  In that day, declares the Lord Almighty, I will break the yoke off their necks and will tear off their bond, no longer will foreigners enslave them.

 

Does Scripture say about anyone else being taken care of; or just Israel.  This is the last half of the 70th week.  Who pursues Israel?  Satan, not the man of lawlessness (Antichrist).

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

Actually, "when you see the abomination of desolation standing...."

 

I cannot find ONE VERSE anywhere that promises help for anyone else. For all else but this special group of those in Judea who flea, all others will be OVERCOME. This is the will of the Lord. Yes, it says Satan persues Israel, but if Satan has possessed the man of sin (what I think really happens) and the man of sin pursues Israel, is it not still the dragon? He is behind the man of sin from the moment of possession on through the entire week. REmember that the false prophet can only do miracles when he is close to and in site of the 1st Beast? It is because Satan has possessed the 1st beast. THis seems logical.

 

Lamad

[iamlamad]

Hey Marv, true enough, but I ask, is the phrase "Day of the Lord" not primarily equated to God Judging? Is it ever directly said to be the great tribulation? or is that just conjecture on the part of many? Your points on the day of the Lord are good and well taken, now, what say you about the great tribulation, the actual topic?

IF we look at the verses in the Old Covenant about the Day of the Lord, it is about destruction of the earth and the sinners in the earth, so most definitely it is judgment. Included in this Day is the 70th week of Daniel. It ends at the 7th vial, but the Day of the Lord continues on. Included in the 70th week of Daniel is the second half of the week, given to us in years, in months and in days, seven times totally. God wants us to understand this time! Included in this last half of the week will be, as Jesus said, "those days" of "great tribulation." It is NOT for the entire last half of the week. God said He would shorten those days. That does NOT mean He shortens the 1260 days or the 42 months or the 3.5 years. No, what He shortens is the number of days of GT. HOW will God shorten those days? He will shorten them by pouring out the vials of His wrath with the associated plagues. Just imagine yourself one of the Beast's army personel, and then read through the vials. After two or three of them, all thoughts of hunting down people and cutting their heads off is gone. So the days of GT will be cut short.  I am beginning to believe the first six of these vials and plagues are poured out in ONE HOUR. What a day that will be! Then the 7th must wait for the end of the 1260 days.

 

Lamad

[nikki1]

 

There are other times "great tribulation" is mentioned

 

 

 

I am of the opinion we were/are talking of "great tribulation" spoken of by Jesus in Matthew 24, just before He comes for his "elect", "church", "saints", "chosen".  Let's not confuse the topic, ok?

 

What I read in the text is a perfect description of the Bride of Christ! Please, share with us what part of their description tells you they are NOT the bride.

 

I don't know what text you are talking about, I have already put up the text referred to from Rev. Chap. 7 vs 14, which is what we are referring to----> "They are those which came out of "great tribulation", and have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb." This Scripture is very self-explanatory and does not say these multitudes are Christ's bride who have been pre-trib raptured. This is simply what you have read into the scripture. The scripture text says these multitudes came out of "great tribulation".

 

　

 

 

Of course, your preconceived glasses of posttrib theory could make it very difficult to see anything that does not fit your theory. It would be very wise to take them off and read this again. There are other times "great tribulation" is mentioned

 

I don't wear pre-conceived glasses, mine are rose colored (LOL  ). Until you give  a text from scripture, which no one has been able to do in any pre-trib rapture discussions I have participated in, the post trib/pre-wrath teaching is not a theory, but based upon biblical teaching, which is what I choose to accept.

 

"Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken. .....And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet and they shall gather together his elect from the four windws,from one end of heaven to the other" Matthew 24:29-31

 

Who are the "elect" of God? It may come as a surprise to you but the "elect" of God is always used to refer to "Christians" or "church" or "saints" or  "chosen" in NT Christianity See Romans 8:33, Romans 16:12, 2 Timothy 2:10, Titis 1:1, 1 Peter 1:2, 2:9, 5:13, James 2:5, 1 Corinth. 1:27 , Ephesians 1:4, Revelation 17:14. These words are all interchangeable. It might be helpful if you invest in a reliable biblical concordance.

 

　

 

 

I hope you do not abscribe to the theory that the United States has become Israel! That theory is as bogus as the $3.00 bill.

I have no idea what you are talking about here.

It may come as another surprise to you, but the true "Israel of God" are all those "saints, "elect","chosen" "church", "born again" Jews and Gentiles, past, present and future who have accepted and will accept God's redemption plan for their sins through Jesus Christ atonement for sin on the cross for all of humanity.When Paul wrote to Christians in Rome, some of whom were Jews, he revealed the existence of two Israels in one sentence while rejecting one of them as such: "For they are not all Israel which are of Israel" Romans 9:6. ---- two distinct Israels in one statement. The first represents the Israelites by blood alone, but Paul says this Israel is not Israel at all. Clearly, then, he calls the one, "Israel," whom he believes is not Israel, which can only mean he retains the use of the term only to identify the bloodline of Abraham, not to define it. He goes on to say, "...nor because they are the seed of Abraham are they all his children. Romans 9:8 confirms this: "They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed".

 

　

I do not know of one scripture supporting the blessing of bloodline Israel, or the remnant of bloodline Israel within the 70th Week. All scriptures I have read in this regard point to a post-tribulation salvation for the remnant. In fact, Jesus said that the bloodline Jews will not be helped and saved until they say, "Blessed is He who comes in the Name of the Lord" -Matthew 23:39. Zechariah 12:10 reveals that time as a post-trib' one, when the Jews see Jesus with their very eyes.

 

 

 

I just wonder, WHY do you believe in a posttrib rapture when the preponderance of evidence shows pretrib?

　

See above and following  responses.

 

 

 

this 7 years of judgment is for the JEWS (Israel) not for the church.

"And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. Then let them which are in Judea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto. For these be the days of vengence, THAT ALL THINGS WHICH ARE WRITTEN MAY BE FULFILLED. Luke 21:20-23

 

The above spoken of "great tribulation" of Judah ultimately leads into Armageddon (Day of the Lord) (as does the Scripture Jesus speaks of in Matthew Ch. 24) to punish the world for its wickedness; yes, the unbelieving Jews of the Holy Land will be punished for "one week" (which is simply another term for 'tribulation period', but the world's wicked gets punished too after 'the week'.  Remember also that judgment begins in the House of God (1 Peter 4:17) - 'elect' Christians also have to be purified and refined during this time that the Jews are being purified.  I am of the opinion that bloodline Jews are purified by the wrath of God while 'elect' Christians are not purified by God's wrath, but by satanic rulers on earth during this time.  Notice any around today?

 

 

God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ" (1 Thessalonians 5:9).

 

The wrath which Paul is talking about here is  those appointed to eternal condemnation referring to Second-Death/Lake-of-Fire WRATH..and not merely to any  anger of God in the here and now and tribulation period. The Bible makes it painfully obvious that the elect Christians do suffer his anger and wrath when sinning grossly (remember King David), and even punishment by death ( Ananias). It's pretty obvious that the wrath Paul is speaking of in this constantly spoken of verse by pre-trib people is eternal wrath-Second Death/Lake of Fire wrath referring to Armageddon

 

To elaborate further on the wrath of God, I will refer to 2 Thess. 1 vs 6-9

 

"Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you; And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels (Here, Paul is referring to Matt. 24:30) in flaming fire taking vengence on them that know not God, and that obey not the Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ :Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power."

 

How can anyone who has read this passage deny that the coming of Jesus and the associated wrath comes at Armageddon? When the penalty of eternal destruction is clearly referring to the Lake of Fire?  In the above text alone it shows and proves that "the wrath of God did not appoint us to suffer" begins at Armageddon, which is after the tribulation of those days, to gather his 'elect', 'church', 'saints', 'chosen', and so forth when Jesus appears with his angels.  Further, the Apostle Paul makes it clear the  "elect" (Christians, saints, church, chosen, etc) must be on earth during this time or 70th week since they are  (troubled) until  these great angels appear at Armageddon?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

　

　

　

[Guest LoyalGypsy]

 

guysmith, on 14 Jun 2013 - 06:50 AM, said:

We all seem to have a different perception of what the GT entails. 

 

Your thoughts?

Greetings

 

We have tribulation which is not of the judgment

and

We have great tribulation which is of the judgment

 

The word great in scripture as it refers to God, great is the judgment side of Him

(Not the Father, this is the Highest side of Himself)

 

John 1:18

No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son,

which is in the bosom of the Father,

He =(the only begotten Son) hath declared him.=> (God in the Highest)

 

 

That's about all it entails...

 

 

LG

Edited July 10, 2013 by LoyalGypsy

[iamlamad]

 

 

There are other times "great tribulation" is mentioned

 

 

 

I am of the opinion we were/are talking of "great tribulation" spoken of by Jesus in Matthew 24, just before He comes for his "elect", "church", "saints", "chosen".  Let's not confuse the topic, ok?

 

What I read in the text is a perfect description of the Bride of Christ! Please, share with us what part of their description tells you they are NOT the bride.

 

I don't know what text you are talking about, I have already put up the text referred to from Rev. Chap. 7 vs 14, which is what we are referring to----> "They are those which came out of "great tribulation", and have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb." This Scripture is very self-explanatory and does not say these multitudes are Christ's bride who have been pre-trib raptured. This is simply what you have read into the scripture. The scripture text says these multitudes came out of "great tribulation".

Nikki, the two words together, "great tribulation" IS the topic, so I am not confusing it!

Did you not notice that these two words together was NOT ENOUGH for Jesus to describe the days of GT that HE was talking about? He had to add that these days would be worse than any ever before or ever after. Here in John 7, we find only the two words, "great tribulation." You have ASSUMED John was speaking of the same days Jesus was speaking of, but this does not fit the context.  Did you not notice that John wrote these same two words before this?

 

Revelation 2:22

Indeed I will cast her into a sickbed, and those who commit adultery with her into great tribulation, unless they repent of their deeds.

 

Jesus was speaking directly to a lady of ill repute, Jezabel, who lived back in 95 AD. She was having men of the church sin with her. Jesus told them, both her and those sleeping with her, that he would cast them into great tribulation.

 

Now, stop and think, for we have two choices here: did Jesus mean He would keep them alive for 2000 years to wait for those days of GT that Jesus spoke about, or did He mean that He could create days of GT RIGHT THEN in 95 AD? I believe Jesus meant that He could create GT anytime and anywhere - - after all He is GOD and all powerful!

 

So what is John saying? It is very simple, it is great tribulation TODAY in any Muslim country. Christians are being martyred on an almost daily basis today. I believe this will spread to the West soon. All John was saying is that these were in GT and came out of it, but NOT "those days" of "great tribulation" spoken of by Jesus. Why? Because John as NOT YET even started the 70th week, much less got to the midpoint and after the midpoint, where those days of great tribulation will begin.  Nikki, make no mistake, these are the raptured saints, the Bride of Christ, already in heaven, LONG before Jesus comes on His white horse.

 

So in this case, they came out of days just like we are living in NOW. AFter all, how could tribulation get any greater for one who has been martyred: they cannot be martyred twice!

 

Lamad

 

[iamlamad]

　

 

 

Of course, your preconceived glasses of posttrib theory could make it very difficult to see anything that does not fit your theory. It would be very wise to take them off and read this again. There are other times "great tribulation" is mentioned

 

I don't wear pre-conceived glasses, mine are rose colored (LOL  ). Until you give  a text from scripture, which no one has been able to do in any pre-trib rapture discussions I have participated in, the post trib/pre-wrath teaching is not a theory, but based upon biblical teaching, which is what I choose to accept.

 

"Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken. .....And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet and they shall gather together his elect from the four windws,from one end of heaven to the other" Matthew 24:29-31

 

Who are the "elect" of God? It may come as a surprise to you but the "elect" of God is always used to refer to "Christians" or "church" or "saints" or  "chosen" in NT Christianity See Romans 8:33, Romans 16:12, 2 Timothy 2:10, Titis 1:1, 1 Peter 1:2, 2:9, 5:13, James 2:5, 1 Corinth. 1:27 , Ephesians 1:4, Revelation 17:14. These words are all interchangeable. It might be helpful if you invest in a reliable biblical concordance.　

We have given many scriptures: John chapter 7 is a very good one. You have not understood it yet. Perhaps you will soon! Just two words, "great tribulation" don't always means those days Jesus spoke of! Any time believers are being martyred it is certainly GT for them. I know you don't put much stock in John's chronology, but you SHOULD, for it is God given. Can you FIND days of GT before chapter 7? What chapter does JOhn first mention the Beast that CAUSES those days of GT? Of course in chapter 13. Why then? It is simple, because John gets to the exact midpoint of the week in chapter 11, and the things He wrote in chapter 12 must come before chapter 13. My point is, in Rev. 7 John as not yet even opened the 70th week, MUCH LESS got to the midpoint of the days after. If these really did come from the Beast and they were martyrs, first John would have SAID they were martyrs, and this passage would have been written in chapter 13 or later. However, they are in chapter 7, JUST BEFORE John officially opens the 70th week with the 7th seal.

 

You do err in not knowing the times and seasons that Paul wrote of. Go back to Dan. 9 and read again, the 70th week is for DANIEL's people, the JEWS. It is the end of THEIR time, not the church's time or age. In other words, the door of the wedding has been SHUT, the Holy Spirit has gone back to heaven where He was before the day of Pentecost. The Jews are now back under LAW (as they suppose), and they will again to the daily sacrifices. So you need to look in the OLD testament for "elect." AT this time, the elect of the New testament will have been caught up to heaven.

 

Again you err in thinking the rapture will gather from HEAVEN. Did you not read that Jesus DESCENDS from heaven, blows the trumpet, the angels shout, and the dead are raised first; then an instant later those alive and in Christ are changed, and THEN WE ARE GATHERED from around the world. Did you miss the word, we rise up TOGETHER with them? This compound word comes from to and "gather."  It is silly try and FORCE this to fit, by saying that Jesus must gather in heaven before He descends. It is very simple, the gathering Paul was writing about was the gathering together of the dead in Christ now risen and those who were changed. I think you need to check those glasses again!   We are ON EARTH, not heaven! Trying to make Matthew 24 a rapture chapter is like trying to drive a square peg into a round hole: it just does not fit! This is a DIFFERENT gathering. Did you ever stop to wonder HOW Jesus will get all his "brethren" to the sheep and goat judgment? Could that be a gathering of the Jews from heaven and earth?

 

Why should I buy a concordance? Blue Letter bible is SO MUCH faster and cheaper too!

 

Isn't it amazing, pretrib scriptures don't seem to "fit" for you? What could be clearer than the raptured church in heaven in chapter 7, before the week begins? It fits perfectly with Paul, who wrote that the rapture would be the trigger for the Day of the Lord. The rapture happens as the first event of the 6th seal, the dead in Christ rising causes a massive, worldwide earthquake, which is Paul's sudden destruction, and John's earthquake of the 6th seal. Then John saw the church in heaven in the next chapter. It is plain and simple and clear.

 

Lamad

[iamlamad]

I hope you do not abscribe to the theory that the United States has become Israel! That theory is as bogus as the $3.00 bill.

I have no idea what you are talking about here.

It may come as another surprise to you, but the true "Israel of God" are all those "saints, "elect","chosen" "church", "born again" Jews and Gentiles, past, present and future who have accepted and will accept God's redemption plan for their sins through Jesus Christ atonement for sin on the cross for all of humanity.When Paul wrote to Christians in Rome, some of whom were Jews, he revealed the existence of two Israels in one sentence while rejecting one of them as such: "For they are not all Israel which are of Israel" Romans 9:6. ---- two distinct Israels in one statement. The first represents the Israelites by blood alone, but Paul says this Israel is not Israel at all. Clearly, then, he calls the one, "Israel," whom he believes is not Israel, which can only mean he retains the use of the term only to identify the bloodline of Abraham, not to define it. He goes on to say, "...nor because they are the seed of Abraham are they all his children. Romans 9:8 confirms this: "They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed".

 

　

I do not know of one scripture supporting the blessing of bloodline Israel, or the remnant of bloodline Israel within the 70th Week. All scriptures I have read in this regard point to a post-tribulation salvation for the remnant. In fact, Jesus said that the bloodline Jews will not be helped and saved until they say, "Blessed is He who comes in the Name of the Lord" -Matthew 23:39. Zechariah 12:10 reveals that time as a post-trib' one, when the Jews see Jesus with their very eyes.

 

 

 

I just wonder, WHY do you believe in a posttrib rapture when the preponderance of evidence shows pretrib?

　

See above and following  responses.

 

 

 

this 7 years of judgment is for the JEWS (Israel) not for the church.

"And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. Then let them which are in Judea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto. For these be the days of vengence, THAT ALL THINGS WHICH ARE WRITTEN MAY BE FULFILLED. Luke 21:20-23

 

The above spoken of "great tribulation" of Judah ultimately leads into Armageddon (Day of the Lord) (as does the Scripture Jesus speaks of in Matthew Ch. 24) to punish the world for its wickedness; yes, the unbelieving Jews of the Holy Land will be punished for "one week" (which is simply another term for 'tribulation period', but the world's wicked gets punished too after 'the week'.  Remember also that judgment begins in the House of God (1 Peter 4:17) - 'elect' Christians also have to be purified and refined during this time that the Jews are being purified.  I am of the opinion that bloodline Jews are purified by the wrath of God while 'elect' Christians are not purified by God's wrath, but by satanic rulers on earth during this time.  Notice any around today?

 

 

God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ" (1 Thessalonians 5:9).

 

The wrath which Paul is talking about here is  those appointed to eternal condemnation referring to Second-Death/Lake-of-Fire WRATH..and not merely to any  anger of God in the here and now and tribulation period. The Bible makes it painfully obvious that the elect Christians do suffer his anger and wrath when sinning grossly (remember King David), and even punishment by death ( Ananias). It's pretty obvious that the wrath Paul is speaking of in this constantly spoken of verse by pre-trib people is eternal wrath-Second Death/Lake of Fire wrath referring to Armageddon

 

To elaborate further on the wrath of God, I will refer to 2 Thess. 1 vs 6-9

 

"Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you; And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels (Here, Paul is referring to Matt. 24:30) in flaming fire taking vengence on them that know not God, and that obey not the Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ :Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power."

 

How can anyone who has read this passage deny that the coming of Jesus and the associated wrath comes at Armageddon? When the penalty of eternal destruction is clearly referring to the Lake of Fire?  In the above text alone it shows and proves that "the wrath of God did not appoint us to suffer" begins at Armageddon, which is after the tribulation of those days, to gather his 'elect', 'church', 'saints', 'chosen', and so forth when Jesus appears with his angels.  Further, the Apostle Paul makes it clear the  "elect" (Christians, saints, church, chosen, etc) must be on earth during this time or 70th week since they are  (troubled) until  these great angels appear at Armageddon?　

 

All scriptures I have read in this regard point to a post-tribulation salvation for the remnant. I

 

Nikki, the remnant WILL BE of the blood line of Israel!

 

The 70th week is for ISRAEL, as proven by Dan. 9. It is also called the time of Jacob's trouble.  It is to bring Israel to their knees.  But the Day of the Lord will be for all nations. It just happens that these two separate times run concurrently from chapter 8 to chapter 16. There the 70th week ends and the Day of the Lord continues. The point thought, is that it is NOT for the church! We are in heaven in chapter 7.

 

The wrath which Paul is talking about here is  those appointed to eternal condemnation referring to Second-Death/Lake-of-Fire WRATH.

 

Nikki, did you consider the CONTEXT of this before you wrote? The context is the RAPTURE for those living in the light and Sudden destruction of the start of the Day of the Lord for those living in darkness. It fits perfectly with the last verse at the 6th seal, "the day of His wrath has come." We can SEE how His wrath starts with the slow and methodical destruction of the earth, starting with the first trumpet judgment. And we can further see that God HOPES people will repent.  Sorry, you missed it here by a country mile. Did you forget, "He is not willing that ANY should parish." All through the 70th week God is hoping for people to repent. Yes, eventually His wrath, and days of vengeance, will end up at Armageddon, I agree. I also think He gets more and more angry as time goes on and few repent. So, I disagree, Paul's disagrees, and John disagrees. Paul was writing of the SAME wrath where John wrote, "the day of His wrath has come."

 

Christians do suffer his anger and wrath when sinning grossly (remember King David),

 

You forget, "Peace on earth, GOOD WILL towards men." Jesus paid for our sins. So He has held back His wrath for the END.

 

It's pretty obvious that the wrath Paul is speaking of in this constantly spoken of verse by pre-trib people is eternal wrath-Second Death/Lake of Fire wrath

 

It cannot be pretty obvious, for I have never heard of this before! Anyway, your theory here does not fit the context of 1 Thes. 5. Paul had just mentioned the rapture as being the trigger for the Day; this means the START of the day, not the end. If you wish for a corresponding verse, it is "The day of His wrath has come."  if you will notice, God has MERCY and some of the trumpet judgements come as 1/3 destruction, just to show people He has that power. But by the time of the vials, it is all out wrath; 100% destruction. His hope is for repentence. I believe MANY will repent and turn to God during the trumpet judgments.

 

"Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation

 

Of course this is at the very end of the 70th week, in fact, AFTER the 70th week - when Jesus returns. God has given up on mankind at this time, and all will be destroyed who will not worship God.  I think few people realize God will destroy ALL sinners before His kingdom. OF COURSE there is wrath here, but this is the END of His wrath, not the beginning! There is a huge difference. Sorry, it certainly does NOT prove His wrath begins here. It is those pesky preconceived glasses again! Perhaps you can explain WHY you see it this way, line upon line? I cannot see it your way.

 

Lamad

Edited July 14, 2013 by iamlamad

[nikki1]

Hi Lamad

 

I once believed in the pre-trib rapture deception until the Lord opened my eyes when I  did my own research. As far as I can see,  Pre-trib teachers and believers, (as yourself) take one line scriptures out of context and made an extra biblical  doctrine out of it by inserting their own extra biblical opinions into their analysis.  While I appreciate your comments,  you really aren't telling me anything I haven't already seen.  The scriptures in context when appropriately applied  on this topic flow together perfectly and  confirm themselves over and over and prove that Jesus comes for all of his people after the tribulation of those days, just before Armaggedon and the great wrath of God.  .  The pre-trib teachers tried to convince me that the "elect" of God, and still teach this deception, are only Israel and Jews (bloodline) and the remnant of Israel, which scripture confirms otherwise over and over.  As I have shown via scripture. (Also see my comments in the thread "Captivity (exile) Rev. 13-10 under Prophecy) Therefore, it is a waste of time, for me anyways, to engage any further in a discussion that is going no where. 

[Floatingaxe]

The tribulation is a future time period when the Lord will accomplish at least two aspects of His plan.

1.He will complete His discipline of Israel.

2.He will judge the unbelieving,godless people of the earth

Daniel 9:24

“Seventy weeks^[a] are determined

For your people and for your holy city,

To finish the transgression,

To make an end of^[b] sins,

To make reconciliation for iniquity,

To bring in everlasting righteousness,

To seal up vision and prophecy,

And to anoint the Most Holy.

Revelation 6-18

The Great Tribulation is the last half of the Tribulation period.31/2 years in length.The entire length of the tribulation is 7 years.

 

What she said!