Morality and government

[JDavis]

 

There were no laws saying spousal abuse was legal, there just was no laws making it illegal.

Governments control (or try to) behavior. they enforce actions not morality.

And there was no bitterness, just stating the facts....the 50's were a great time to be an adult white male....everyone else not so much

 

 

A marked change from what you said earlier.  You stated very clearly that it was legal.

 

And again, you did not deal with your statement about the government and morality.  Are laws nothing more than enforced morality, or are they not?

 

 

 

It was legal, that is how our system works.  we don't have laws that make things legal, we have laws that make them illegal. 

 

I have dealt with it, try and read the thread.  Laws make (or try to make) people behave in a certain way, they do not force morality, just actions.   Morality is from the soul, not the hands.

[JDavis]

 

 

 

It was legal, that is how our system works.  we don't have laws that make things legal, we have laws that make them illegal. 

 

I have dealt with it, try and read the thread.  Laws make (or try to make) people behave in a certain way, they do not force morality, just actions.   Morality is from the soul, not the hands.

 

 

Spousal abuse has been illegal, statute-wise, by individual states since the 1850's.  And Federally, it has been illegal since the 1870's  So your earlier statement that in the 1950's, a man could legally beat his wife, is false.

 

Laws govern moral behavior.  They are an attempt to control behavior.  True moral behavior comes from the heart, yes, but you are splitting hairs.  Legislation is the government's attempt to enforce it's concept of morality on the populace.

 

 

 

could you offer some evidence to support your statement about spousal abuse laws?

 

Laws govern behavior, this much we agree on.

[JDavis]

Thanks

I stand corrected

Learned something new today....makes it a good day

[wonby1]

As a student living on a college campus where many students believe socialism, communism and marxism are best for American (even though they have never visited countries who have those systems) I agree that they truly believe the U.S.A is an oppressive, war-mongering and evil capitalist regime. They ignore the essential values that rose America to become a world power. They are normally morally relative so the judeo-christian overtones in main u.s.a culture are seen as prejudice. They believe family is an institution of oppression and the only freedom is the ability to do what they want, when they want without any responsibility. They play the victim card for everything about race to gender to sexuality and many even did their own Occupy wall-street protest while reading scripts from Apple ipads. We need a fundamental transformation and this starts with individuals. The family unit needs to be re-established as being the best type of unit not cohabitation or casual relationships. We need to get back to the judeo-christian roots and realize that all life is sacred. all races are equal and that men and women have always been equal- they just have different pedestals. In my school there is an automatic self-segregation by many. In their wake to cry victim they automatically become prejudice to those who have caused them no oppression. In their cry for tolerance they become bigoted to those who are showing tolerance. And in the end they show their own lack of understanding except their own selfish goals. They take for granted that their freedom to talk, have a different opinion/belief and even dress the way they do is a freedom within itself. I don't think my college peers intend to turn America into a police state because they take for granted their own freedoms to do as they please without repercussion. I do believe they intend to destroy the moral fabric of society because they are amoral due to their moral relativity- they see any morality as judgmental. I don't think they realize that their actions could turn America into a police state so I don't think they have an intention to do so. If their is an intention I think they want to keep their freedoms since they believe they are entitled due to their beliefs but police other groups whom they hate/disagree with in terms of ideological beliefs. They want their cake, eat it and throw it in the face of others. 

 

In terms of the comments about moving to a different country I truly wish many of my peers would move to a socialist/marxist country and experience the type of life they think is so great for u.s.a but even then I believe their pride will just make them think that country just "did it wrong". While it is every citizen's right to change something they do not like but that does not mean their change is good and if they like another country so much then they really should just move to that country. Why suffer in this "oppressive" society when they can just move and experience happiness?

The family structure is the biggest obstacle to the collectivist.  It used to be that in order for people to survive, they needed to depend on the family unit in order to survive.  This meant that your loyalty and focus was the family unit and it meant being selfless in supporting it so that you can survive.

 

To subvert this structure, collectivists came up with the nanny state.  No longer must we feel the obligation to take care of those in our family or have any obligation towards them since we no longer depend on them to survive.  It has produced a society full of self absorbed individuals who are largely disenfranchised with the rest of society that focus on empowering Big Brother to take care of them and the rest of society.

Edited July 19, 2013 by wonby1

[nebula]

 

 

Ya, 20% ouch. I think it helps to understand that

 

 

 

Morality and government are mutually exclusive. satan being the CEO of your government,

how do you expect any different? Read 1Sam8, and see its fruition.

 

 

Again, please keep things in perspective. Most of those 20% are business people; families who have been able to save thousands of dollars for airfare, hotel expenses, and the like; individuals who likewise saved such money for such trips; and high school/college students who raised (from other Americans) a couple thousand for missions trips.

 

Bottom line, it costs a lot of money to travel to other nations. So, if you want us to broaden our perspectives by traveling to other nations, then you need to quit harping on us for having money.

 

No money, no travel.

 

Not true at all. You can go anywhere you want in the world, for free, and have room and board and a job waiting; thru WWOOF, or any number of other ways.

 

Wow, that's cool information to know. Sigh, I wish I had known about this program 20 years ago when I could have afforded to take off of work - and was healthy enough for that kind of rigorous physical labor.

 

 

And the best part is, the attitude is really all we're going for here.

 

Well Byrd, what you need to do is find a marketing campaign that targets teens, college students, and young adults with these kinds of programs. By the time we are locked into paying rent or mortgage, college loans, car insurance, and various other just living expenses, the majority of us can't afford to commit to something like this. That is, we'd still have to have a lot of money saved just to keep the bills paid on time.

 

 

I'm not a big fan of aimlessly traveling; if you are anywhere near a Metropolis, there is ample opportunity to soak up a different culture right down the street. If not, there is still a different world at a neighbor's house--that foreigner you have been avoiding. Go knock on their door--they've prolly been wondering why the heck none of their neighbors have gotten familiar, anyway; they knew everybody where they used to live--and start a revolution : )

 

I interact with immigrants and foreigners every day at my job. Some of my coworkers are immigrants (ever talk to someone with a heavy Indian accent? It's amusing!), and many of my students are foreigners and immigrants.

 

But that's my neck of the woods.

 

Really, before you keep judging Americans this way, you should travel our land. Visit the mining towns of West Virginia and preach to them about how they are privileged Americans. Check out the cities - away from the tourist areas - and tell the people there about traveling to other nations (well, maybe not; you might get mugged or killed if you take a turn down the wrong street). Or how about walking the roads of Montana? (Better pack a tent because it will take a long time to come across any civilization.)

[nebula]

 

Well Byrd, what you need to do is find a marketing campaign that targets teens, college students, and young adults with these kinds of programs. By the time we are locked into paying rent or mortgage, college loans, car insurance, and various other just living expenses, the majority of us can't afford to commit to something like this. That is, we'd still have to have a lot of money saved just to keep the bills paid on time.

Mkting campaign, ha. I have a gaggle of interns now. Can't wait for them to go back to school, so I can get some work done.

 

You show my point. It's so much easier riding your high horse and mud sling than it is to get your hands in the mud.

Hint: that is not love you are expressing with this sentence.

 

And, I guess you prolly wont like this, but if you have a mortgage? You cannot serve two masters. And you think that because you work is why you have food, shelter, etc., when it is God who supplies all your needs. Just wait until next year or whenever, when money wont be enough to buy food; and if you dont believe that could ever happen...well, there are people there, right now. Not saying work is bad; I work 6 days a week; but you admit here that it is your god!

Wow, aren't you the judgmental one?

Firstly, sir, I pay rent, not a mortgage. Secondly, you don't know squat about my circumstances, nor what I've been through, nor what I am going through. But if you knew my circumstances, you wouldn't be so smug.

 

You cannot afford not to commit to something along these lines; but you must be led by the Spirit here.

Well, at least I can agree with the second part - being led by the Spirit.

But your first statement is putting the Holy Spirit in a box - claiming that He wants all of us travel to other nations. You can't make that call, nor should you. I don't know how many nations you have been blessed to visit, but it's not your call to tell everyone else they should be like you.

... Cont.

[nebula]

I dont mean to try to convince anyone of anything here,

Umm, yes you are.

 

but to provide a witness that all that stuff we are convinced of now, I need money to survive, I need a house to live in, to shelter my family, etc.

is all just lies, designed to make you a slave.

So, are you saying to be godly, we should all quit our jobs and live in tents? I'm serious.

For your info, I know what it is like to not have a job. And "free" would not describe my experience.

 

Even mortgaged, you can take a step toward This; go camping!

Maybe you enjoy camping alone, but I don't.

 

Volunteer at a local farm on the weekends.

Discover a patch of your fave Nat'l Forest; you own it.

There are a million ways to fold the sucker-hand that you have been dealt.

And what if the Lord has given me other priorities to attend to?

 

 

...

Really, before you keep judging Americans this way, you should travel our land. Visit the mining towns of West Virginia and preach to them about how they are privileged Americans. Check out the cities - away from the tourist areas - and tell the people there about traveling to other nations (well, maybe not; you might get mugged or killed if you take a turn down the wrong street). Or how about walking the roads of Montana? (Better pack a tent because it will take a long time to come across any civilization.)

Hey, I am an American; I judge myself as being in the same boat--but those you mention are the minority, and the least likely to be who I mean.

 

Well, that's useful to know. You've been speaking as if you hate America and Americans.

 

Actually, they define 'out of the world,' when you put them up next to the overwhelming majority. I have this little test...lol, I've found that the more likely ones answer to repeating some Gov proclamation at a local is 'so what?' the more likely you are to be in a good place.

Which I hate, because it seems to be saying 'disobey authority,' when that is not a good characterization; but surely most readers will grasp the intent here.

I'm sorry, but would you please re-phrase how you wrote that part I bolded? I am not understanding your meaning.

[nebula]

By the way - 

 

 I judge myself as being in the same boat--but those you mention are the minority,

and the least likely to be who I mean. Actually, they define 'out of the world,' when you put them up next to 

the overwhelming majority. 

 

By the way, your statement here is rather callous. I have been to Appalachia, and I have been to the inner city. "Out of this world"? How insensitive can you be? Why don't you go live with these people for a while and tell me then how "out of the world" they are? These are not "minorities" to be brushed aside. They are real people locked in a harsh world. 

 

Oh, right, you've been to "other nations" and that is so much more noble than visiting the poor in your own back yard.

 

And if you were to do the math, there are a lot more of them than you imply.

[Fez]

So - how many of you non-Americans have travelled to America?

Me and South, in total I guess about 7 or 8 times. How many of you Americans own a passport?

 

Cool!

 

What is your opinion of America in comparison to what has been stated on this thread?

 

 

I do. I've been to Germany and Australia. (Both paid for by my parents.)

 

My brother went on a mission trip to Venezuela

Sorry for the late answer, I have been busy with stuff.

My opinion could be stated at being mixed. I met some really amazing people in the US. The folks from NOAA were really cool, and the hospitality was great. In Hawaii I stayed with family and so experienced life not as a tourist, but the real deal. I spent New Year's eve in a native Hawaiian/Filipino neighborhood, with Caucasian Americans, so I got the whole package! Which was amazing, and I have nothing but good to say. I lectured in a junior school and loved the kids.

I fished for marlin off Kauai with some great guys and sea kayaked with others.

But like everywhere, I met some very rude and arrogant people, especially at airports and such places.

Here is South Africa I have met some amazing Americans, one who was here for a few years to run a charity called Africa Impact, and she became a good friend. But then we get these busloads of students from the USA and Canada who are drunken, party loving and foul mouthed and do nothing to further the cause of the USA.

On Worthy I see the patriotism of some, and the "rabidness" of others when it comes to politics, USA or foreign.

As long as we can use the bible as our international standard, we should muddle through!

[nebula]

And what if the Lord has given me other priorities to attend to?

Glad you asked, Neb...lol.

That is up to you tho, Neb, really,

but I would ruthlessly examine my premises there,

and then those priorities, to see if they actually are from God,

and then go from there.

And why do you assume I haven't?

Has it ever occurred to you that it is not God's plan for every person to visit other nations? If the Lord's intent for a person is to minister to or within the local community, for example, why would such a person need to go to Europe or Africa or what-have-you to have a broader perspective on the world?

If you can't love your neighbor who is next to you, of what value is looking for people to love in France? Are you not biasing your love?

 

Are you working to pay off a mortgage? Why are you indentured for a house?

How is this different from being indentured to a rent with a lease? Or do you live in a tent?

 

Do you think your children need you to feed them? Why? You are a hindrance, mostly,after a certain, very limited providence;

Excuse me, but a parent who does not feed his children is a child-abuser. If you are sending your children out into the street to find their own food, you are worse than an infidel by Biblical standards.

"But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel." (1 Timothy 5:8)

Hey, I am an American; I judge myself as being in the same boat--but those you mention are the minority, and the least likely to be who I mean.

Well, that's useful to know. You've been speaking as if you hate America and Americans.

i KNOW! i'M SO HORRIBLE! dangit I am really impressed at the reception here, btw. I know what I'm saying is not popular, and the most horrid delivery to boot. Trust that I know it is transparent, and that you see what I dont see. My whole family are raging Codependents, capital c; I'm working on it.

So, you see nothing wrong with hating your neighbor (Americans next door). Please justify your behavior from the Scriptures?

Actually, they define 'out of the world,' when you put them up next to the overwhelming majority. I have this little test...lol, I've found that the more likely ones answer to repeating some Gov proclamation at a local is 'so what?' the more likely you are to be in a good place.

Which I hate, because it seems to be saying 'disobey authority,' when that is not a good characterization; but surely most readers will grasp the intent here.

I'm sorry, but would you please re-phrase how you wrote that part I bolded? I am not understanding your meaning.

Herb: Hey, Ned, guess what?

Ned: What?

Herb: The Gov sez two guys can get married now!

Ned: So, what?

Whatever floats your boat.