Captivity (exile) Rev 13:10

[Montana Marv]

 

The elect (those found in the Lambs Book of Life) consist of;  OT saints, NT saints, tribulation saints, 144,000, elect from all Israel.

 

So which group do want to lump them into.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

 

Hi Mountain Marv:

 

I would just like to elaborate more on who the "elect" are from scripture context:

 

 The "elect" of God is always used to refer to "Christians" or "church" or "saints" or "chosen" in NT Christianity in scripture context.  See Romans 8:33, Romans 16:12, 2 Timothy 2:10, Titis 1:1, 1 Peter 1:2, 2:9, 5:13, James 2:5, 1 Corinth. 1:27 , Ephesians 1:4, Revelation 17:14, Acts 15:22; Acts 15:25 These words are all interchangeable and are one in the same if you refer to each scripture text I have listed.  Many pre-trib people believe the elect refer to only Israel, but Scripture confirms over and over  this is simply not so.

 

 

nikki1

 

Not totally true.

 

1 Tim 5:21 - I charge you, in the sight of God, and Christ Jesus and the elect angels, to keep these instructions.....

 

The "elect" are those who are chosen.   So for us humans, the elect consist of; OT Saints, NT Saints, Tribulation Saints, the 144,000, and the remnant from all Israel.  There are even "elect" who come out of the 1000 years, those who were born during that time.  All these "elect" are included in the Lambs Book of Life.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

[rain7]

I believe that the church is already in tribulation.  Many are already in a "prison" so to speak by being captured and led astray by the deceptive words of false prophets.

 

Paul stated that after his departing grievous wolves would enter in among us not sparing the flock.  Also, of our own selves would men arise speaking things they should not in order to draw away disciples after them.

 

Acts 20:28-33 KJV

(28)  Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

(29)  For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.

(30)  Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.

(31)  Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears.

(32)  And now, brethren, I commend you to God, and to the word of his grace, which is able to build you up, and to give you an inheritance among all them which are sanctified.

 

Covetousness is the thing we are to be aware of and avoid.  The grievous wolves are  always after these things and deceive us with their empty words...flattering tongues.

 

(33)  I have coveted no man's silver, or gold, or apparel.

 

To me, the false prophets …grievous wolves…have already entered in among us and lead many down the broad way unto destruction.    They lead us away from having love for one another and into their envying, strife and divisions.

 

Matthew 7:12-15 KJV

(12)  Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.

(13)  Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

(14)  Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

(15)  Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

 

They take away the “daily” sacrifice….to have love for one another.  As Jesus loved us and gave His life for ours, we are to have love for each other….the “daily” debt.    But false prophets come to  us to deceive us and remove the “daily” sacrifice out of our hearts.  The love of many shall wax cold because of the abounding iniquity (lawlessness).

 

Matthew 24:11-12 KJV

(11)  And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.

(12)  And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.

 

We are to walk in love….keeping the “daily” sacrifice….for  Christ who loved us had given Himself for us as an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweet smelling savor. 

 

Ephesians 5:1-5 KJV

(1)  Be ye therefore followers of God, as dear children;

(2)  And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour.

 

But covetousness is the idolatry which should not be once named among us.

 

(3)  But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints;

(4)  Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks.

 

Covetousness is idolatry and is the “abomination of desolation” of which false prophets want to set up in our hearts.    They use vain words to deceive us….removing the “daily” sacrifice out of our hearts in order to set up their idolatry.  They want us to live according to their lusts.   

 

(5)  For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.

 

The “abomination of desolation” = covetousness.  Because of these things comes the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.

 

 (6)  Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.

(7)  Be not ye therefore partakers with them.

 

And when we wake up to these matters and depart from those who are partaking in these things, we shall suffer persecution as we shall no longer live the rest of our time in the flesh to the  lusts of men …the false prophets who lead many astray.   Maybe the "great tribulation" comes when we depart from their gatherings as they will speak evil of us thinking it strange that we will no longer "run" with them after their idolatries.

 

1 Peter 4:1-4 KJV

(1)  Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;

(2)  That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.

(3)  For the time past of our life may suffice us to have wrought the will of the Gentiles, when we walked in lasciviousness, lusts, excess of wine, revellings, banquetings, and abominable idolatries:

(4)  Wherein they think it strange that ye run not with them to the same excess of riot, speaking evil of you:

[nikki1]

 

 

The elect (those found in the Lambs Book of Life) consist of;  OT saints, NT saints, tribulation saints, 144,000, elect from all Israel.

 

So which group do want to lump them into.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

 

Hi Mountain Marv:

 

I would just like to elaborate more on who the "elect" are from scripture context:

 

 The "elect" of God is always used to refer to "Christians" or "church" or "saints" or "chosen" in NT Christianity in scripture context.  See Romans 8:33, Romans 16:12, 2 Timothy 2:10, Titis 1:1, 1 Peter 1:2, 2:9, 5:13, James 2:5, 1 Corinth. 1:27 , Ephesians 1:4, Revelation 17:14, Acts 15:22; Acts 15:25 These words are all interchangeable and are one in the same if you refer to each scripture text I have listed.  Many pre-trib people believe the elect refer to only Israel, but Scripture confirms over and over  this is simply not so.

 

 

nikki1

 

Not totally true.

 

1 Tim 5:21 - I charge you, in the sight of God, and Christ Jesus and the elect angels, to keep these instructions.....

 

The "elect" are those who are chosen.   So for us humans, the elect consist of; OT Saints, NT Saints, Tribulation Saints, the 144,000, and the remnant from all Israel.  There are even "elect" who come out of the 1000 years, those who were born during that time.  All these "elect" are included in the Lambs Book of Life.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

 

 Hi

 

Could you please demonstrate what part is not totally true.  You are repeating what you have already written, but didn't explain why my comments are "not totally true"

 

If you read any or all of the passages I posted, you would no doubt see that all of these writings are addressed to "Christians" and/or using the "interchangeable " words including "elect", "chosen", "saints", "church" and so forth.  In the passage you have selected 1 Tim. 5:21, it refers to "elect" angels, which can be "chosen" angels.  In any event, I will clarify that I wasn't referring to angels, which I thought was obvious from the context of my post because none of my passages refer to angels. 

 

So for us humans

I am referring to humans in my comments and not angels as the passages I have put up show.

[Montana Marv]

nikki1

 

I just added a NT verse that mentioned that there are also elect angels; so not all the elect of the NT is referring to the Church.  But when it comes to the 70th week of Daniel.  Which people have the center of attention?  Is this week about Israel or the Church?  I say about Israel as were the previous 69 weeks of Daniel.  The focus on the 70th week is on Israel.  I do not see otherwise.  God choose us, NT believers;  God choose the justified of the OT;  God has chosen the remnant of Israel in this 70th week.

 

The saints of (Rev 6:10) who were slain and are beneath the altar are asking a question...  When will you avenge our blood.  There are no NT Scriptures that support this question being asked.  If there are no NT Scriptures to support this view, it is not a view of the Church/Bride.  How many times are we to ask for forgiveness   (70 times 7), in other words unending, we keep asking for forgiveness for others.  When Stephen was stoned, what was his response.  Forgive them, Acts 7:60 - Lord, Do not hold this sin against them.

 

These (tribulation) saints killed during the 70th week are asking   When will you avenge our blood.

 

Stephen asks - Lord do not hold this sin against them.

 

Boy, the Church has come a long way.  What false doctrine infiltrated the Church for us to ask for vengeance.

 

In Christ

Montana Mountain Marv

[nikki1]

Hi Montana Marv"

　

 

 

but when it comes to the 70th week of Daniel

 

Daniel's 70th week is simply another way of saying 'tribulation period'.

 

 

 

God has chosen the remnant of Israel in this 70th week

 

Where in the Bible does it say God has chosen [only] the remnant of Israel in this tribulation period [70th Week of Daniel]?

 

 

 

The focus of the 70th Week (tribulation period) is on Israel

 

Where in the Bible does it say this the focus of the 70th Week (tribulation period) is on Israel [only]

 

　

 

 

Is this week (tribulation period) about Israel or the Church? (also known as "elect', "saints", "chosen", etc)

 

Some food for thought:

 

Do you really think that God would begin a book of prophecy (Revelation) which emphasizes in all three introductory chapters a post-rapture reward for the members of the Asian churches who overcome tribulation, only to change the focus of subsequent tribulation chapters to Jewish saints?

 

If, as you say, the focus of "Daniels 70th Week" (tribulation period) is solely on Israel, then why does God only mention "Jews" only two times in all of Revelation, conspiciously not included in the tribulation chapters, but called "The Synoogogue of Satan" in Rev. Ch. 2:9 and 3:9?

 

Compare the mention of "Jews" in Revelation only two times with the word "church" and "churches", which is mentioned at least 20 times in Revelation, mostly in the introductory chapters!

Jesus himself said: "I, Jesus, sent my angel to testify these things [the entire book of Revelation] to you for the churches" Revelation 22:16

 

It sure seems odd to me that if Jesus said the prophecies of Revelation are "for the churches,"but I read where you say the tribulation period is for Israel only.

 

I think it is just best to take Jesus at His Word "in all things."

 

"Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written: for the time is at hand". Revelation 1:3

　

 

 

 

God choose the justified OT saints

 

This statement hardly supports your pre-trib rapture theory  if that is why you wrote it, because:

 

See Hebrews Chapter 11 ref. the great tribulations of these OT saints who "were chosen" but went through and died in faith in great tribulation, but received not the promise In part ::"and others had trial of cruel mockings and scourgings, you, moreover of bonds and imprisonment: They were stoned, they were sawn asunder, were tempted, were slain with the sword: they wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins: being destitute, afflicted, tormented, (Of whom the world was not worthy:) they wandered in deserts and in mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth. And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, RECEIVED NOT THE PROMISE": vs. 36-39

 

[quote]God choose us, NT believers

[Montana Marv]

nikki1

 

I said the focus of the 70th week is on Israel and not the Church.

 

For they receive preferential treatment for the 1st half of the week.  Their Temple is built.  They are employed to bury the dead of
Ezk 38 and 39 for 7 months.  They will have no hassle sacrifices.

 

Yet the Lord will refine them:  Zech 13:8-9 - In the whole land, declares the Lord, two thirds will be struck down and perish; yet one third will be left in it.  This third I will bring into the fire, I will refine them like silver and test them like gold.  They will call on my name and I will answer them; I will say they are my people, and they will say, the Lord is our God.

 

Yet I still have an unanswered question.  When did the Bride/Church go from Asking for Forgiveness to Asking for Vengeance.  If there is no such change in doctrine, these tribulation saints are not the Bride/Church.  For they ask a question 180 degrees from what Stephen asked.

 

Also, there are no Scriptures which support a mid-trib, pre-wrath or a post-trib doctrinal position.  Otherwise Jesus the Son would know the timing of the Rapture, which He does not.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

[nikki1]

Montana Marv

 

I said the focus of the 70th week is on Israel and not the Church.

I am aware of what you said, however I do not believe this to be so

 

Yet I still have an unanswered question. When did the Bride/Church go from Asking for Forgiveness to Asking for Vengeance. If there is no such change in doctrine, these tribulation saints are not the Bride/Church. For they ask a question 180 degrees from what Stephen asked.

 

I don't understand what you are getting at or the point of this because it has nothing to do with the discussion as far as I can see? In any event the scripture you are referring to does not say they are "tribulation saints" The preceding scripture tells us who they are and they are those who were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held and most obviously are Christians who were martyred at some point throughout Biblical and Christian history.

 

Also, there are no Scriptures which support a mid-trib, pre-wrath or a post-trib doctrinal position.

 

I completely disagree. There is only one catching away of God's people on earth mentioned and Jesus himself told us when he would return to catch up his people on earth, ( Jews, Gentiles, "elect", "saints", "chosen", "church") in Matthew 24:29-31 whether you acknowledge it or not doesn't change that biblical fact, which is after the tribulation of those days, and just before the Day of the Lord which is Armaggedon, which is the great day of His wrath and vengence upon the wicked on earth. This is the wrath His people are not appointed to suffer from. Jesus also tells of the celestial signs that will take place at his coming to gather his people on earth at this time, which is also outlined in the OT in Joel 2:31-32

 

Matthew 24:29-31

Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven; and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

AND HE SHALL SEND HIS ANGELS WITH A GREAT SOUND OF A TRUMPET, AND THEY SHALL GATHER TOGETHER HIS ELECT FROM THE FOUR WINDS FROM ONE END OF HEAVEN TO THE OTHER.

 

Joel 2:31-32

The sun shall be turned into darkness and the moon into blood before the great and terrible day of the LORD come.

And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered;for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call. Notice in this two verses that the remnant of Israel are not delivered and saved during the tribulation period or Daniel's 70th week, as pre-trib people promote, but the remnant is delivered at the day of the LORD after the tribulation, goes into the millinium.

　

 

The cosmic signs and disturbances noted in Mathew 24 and Joel 2 correlate with one another and are the very same event and occur at the 6 seal of Revelation 6 vs.12-17

 

And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became blood; And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind, And heaven departed as a scroll when it rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. And the kings of the earth, and the great men and the rich

men, and the chief captains and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

And said to the mountains and rocks, "Fall on us and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from THE WRATH OF THE LAMB:

FOR THE GREAD DAY OF HIS WRATH IS COME; and who shall be able to stand?"

 

This verse certainly confirms that that the wrath of God comes at the 6th seal, and Armageddon, which means the the 6th seal is after the tribulation period, which means this doesn't occur until after Daniel's 70th Week. This means that the wrath of God is at Armageddon, and not during the tribulation period or Daniel's 70th week. What could be more descriptive of the post-tribulation period than, "every mountain and island were moved out of their places," which is a catastrophic event that could not occur within the Daniel's 70th Week (tribulation period) because it amounts to a complete destruction of civilization itself?

 

Jesus the Son would know the timing of the Rapture, which He does not.

 

Think about what you wrote. You are implying that Jesus is coming to catch away His people on earth at a pre trib rapture event, but Jesus doesn't know when He is going to catch away His people. How can this possibly be.   When Jesus is God and knows all things, and most certainly the timing of His coming to catch away His people after the tribulation of those days, just as he said?

　

Jesus himself said written in Revelation Ch. 16:15 just before he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Ar-ma-ged-don (16:16)----->>

 

"Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked and they see his shame."

Our Lord is telling us right in the above verse when He is coming for his people, and again, it is after tribulation of those days, after Daniel's 70th Week, and just before Armageddon. After this, in verse 17 the seventh angel pours out his vial into the air, and there is a great voice out of the temple of heaven from the throne, saying, "It is done".............

 

Jesus himself told the pharisees and scribes and unbelieving Jews in Matthew 23 that they would not see him again until they say "Blessed is He that cometh in the name of the LORD" vs. 39. This does not happen until after the tribulation period and after Daniels 70th week. This happens to bloodline Jews who will be born again at Armageddon (which is post tribulation and not during Daniel's 70th Week as pre-trib teachers promote, but after Daniel's 70th week "when the Lord pours upon the house of David and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem the spirit of grace and of supplications, and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced". (Zachariah 12:10)

　

　

　

　

　

[Montana Marv]

Nikki1

 

Jesus the Son does not know when the Rapture will take place.  Only God the Father knows. Per Matt 24:36... Jesus the Son is the Spoken Word, and the Written Word (the Bible) as Scripture says.  The Rapture is a surprise gift from the Father to the Son. The Bride is complete.

 

Now which does Scripture say to mimic.  To ask for Forgiveness of others who do harm to you, or to ask for Vengeance upon others who do harm to you.  Stephen the first Church/NT Believer  martyr asked for forgiveness for those who were to kill him.  These tribulation saints have asked for vengeance for those who killed them.  Which view is Scriptural.  One position is a hypocritical view and not based on Scripture.  Will one follow Stephens response or does one follow these tribulation saints response.  For this is where the rubber meets the road.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

[iamlamad]

Sadly Marv, you aren't going anywhere because the Pre-Trib Doctrine is a lie.

You keep saying this, but you have zero scripture to stand on.

John saw the church in heaven in the 7th chapter, not in the 19th chapter.

 

Lamad

[WalkTheWay]

Now which does Scripture say to mimic.  To ask for Forgiveness of others who do harm to you, or to ask for Vengeance upon others who do harm to you.  Stephen the first Church/NT Believer  martyr asked for forgiveness for those who were to kill him.  These tribulation saints have asked for vengeance for those who killed them.  Which view is Scriptural.  One position is a hypocritical view and not based on Scripture.  Will one follow Stephens response or does one follow these tribulation saints response.  For this is where the rubber meets the road.

 

I think your question was answered by Paul who wrote:

 

Romans 12:19 Do not take revenge, my dear friends, but leave room for God's wrath, for it is written: "It is mine to avenge; I will repay," says the Lord.

 

2 Thessalonians 1:6 since indeed God considers it just to repay with affliction those who afflict you,

 

If this is what God has promised, then it is indeed just for the souls of the slain to request that justice be served.