Celebrating Christmas and Easter

[CAP73]

It is up to you as a parent what it is you want to teach your children. But I grew up being told stories about Santa Claus, Easter Bunnys, eggs and Christmas trees and it did me no harm. I still became a Christian. Sometimes maybe it is just me. But I think that things are taking wayyyy to seriously.  I just want to add I don't like giant Easter Bunnys. They freak me out! I think giant Easter Bunnys are the freakiest things in the world!

True that.  My girlfriend had two in her house.  Scared the snot out of me every time I walked in.

[Guest]

Back when I had pets, the cats would have been disappointed if I didn't put up a Christmas tree/cat jungle gym . . .

[Qnts2]

The most likely reference of carving and decorating trees in Jeremiah would be Asherah poles. Astarte was a Canaanite fertility goddess. The poles were carved.

 

Just an interesting article. I guess some nightclubs in California bought some modern Asherah poles.

 

http://www.larknews.com/archives/479

[Qnts2]

 

I have decided not to observe christmas and easter any more as i believe these to be pagan holidays.  There is a scripture in the old testament that is against adorning trees with silver and gold but I cant remember the whole verse but to my mind this scripture is against adorning trees of any kind with decorations. Also in the bible in the new testament gospels it talks about the wise men taking gifts to the child but this did not happen when Jesus was a baby as I believe Him to be about 2 years old when the three wise men visited Him with gifts.  If you dont beleive me then just read the gospels for yourselves regarding the birth of Jesus.

 

Also Jesus was born in either September/October time so why celebrate someones birthday a couple of months later this does not make sense surely not. Christmas is pagan as far as I am concerned and most of us have gone to far in going overboard leading into materialism when it comes to Christas and Easter and gorging ourselves on food which is not good.

 

Easter is also a pagan holiday and honestly were does bunnies and easter eggs come into the equasion and hot cross buns honestly, I mean get real. Easter is not mentioned in the bible apart from the mistake of the word in the kings james version. Passover is from Wednesday until saturday and this is stated in the Word of God and please seriously read this and check it out for yourselves.

 

There are lots of pagan holidays that are celebrated including valentines day, st patricks day may day and possibly others too. So please be careful on what you take on board in your lives and concentrate on what the Word of God says and we should be observing the holy holidays as stated in the Bible.

________________________________

 

Hello and welcome.  I agree with you 110%.  

 

I think the passage of scripture regarding the xmas tree is described in Jeremiah 10:3-4. A lot say that this is the making of an idol, and not decorating a xmas tree.  But I always quip asking the question, "Is it any better if we skip a step shaping it and then go directly to the decorating part?"  It is said that celebrating Christ is all that matters, but then what scripturally does the tree represent?  Certainly not Christ or God.  As for commemorating Christ's birth, although the bible is not big on birthdays, I would say why not on a feast?  Namely the feast of Trumpets.

 

I personally do not feel comfortable with the traditional xmas/Easter holidays as the Holy Spirit convicts me of this, but I rather observe biblical holidays and by that at least be aware of their times and acknowledging to God their prophetic purpose thanking him for his revelation to us. Of course I am not advocating sacrificing animals or keeping an elaborate OT ceremony.  I use a different calendar and use the Gregorian for civil purposes only ---But you are correct in the time of year Christ was born. And likewise you are correct in Christ's time that the year he was crucified was on Wednesday Nisan 14 and arose late Nisan 17 (Saturday) to fulfil the Firstfruits feast (Sunday Nisan 18), that is to say, he had to be completely arisen as Nisan 17 passed and Nisan 18th dawned, not resurrected on Sunday morning, but only by the time Sunday started.

 

This is what I believe based on my scriptural study.

 

 

Jesus was not born on the Feast of Trumpets, plus, the Feast of Trumpets is a fall holy day, which is not yet fulfilled. Assign the wrong meaning to it, and the actually prophetic pointer to Messiah is corrupted. These Holy days were commanded by God for a purpose.  

 

Since birthday celebrations are not biblical commands, but rather traditions, it is far better not to try to mix up biblical commands with extra-biblical traditions. Besides, it is entirely possible that Jesus would have been born in December. It is a reasonable time to celebrate His birth.

 

As far as His resurrection, He was most likely resurrected on a Sunday, as that would be the first fruits wave offering, and Jesus is the first fruits. That would coincide with the beginning of the counting of the omer, which times out perfectly with 'Pentacost'/Shavuot being 50 days later. A Saturday resurrection  makes not sense as it would not align with the holy days as fullfillments.  

[gnomonist]

 

Jesus was not born on the Feast of Trumpets, plus, the Feast of Trumpets is a fall holy day, which is not yet fulfilled. Assign the wrong meaning to it, and the actually prophetic pointer to Messiah is corrupted. These Holy days were commanded by God for a purpose.  

 

Since birthday celebrations are not biblical commands, but rather traditions, it is far better not to try to mix up biblical commands with extra-biblical traditions. Besides, it is entirely possible that Jesus would have been born in December. It is a reasonable time to celebrate His birth.

 

As far as His resurrection, He was most likely resurrected on a Sunday, as that would be the first fruits wave offering, and Jesus is the first fruits. That would coincide with the beginning of the counting of the omer, which times out perfectly with 'Pentacost'/Shavuot being 50 days later. A Saturday resurrection  makes not sense as it would not align with the holy days as fullfillments.  

 

_____________________________________

 

While I agree with you in principle that the main prophetic meaning of the feast of Trumpets has not occurred yet, I do believe that's a strong assertion on your part that Christ "was not born on the feast of the Trumpets".  How do you really know that?  But I can supply scripture that does point to that. John was describing a vision in Revelation 12 which clearly has astronomical significance as well (as prophecy has multiple fulfilments)

 

And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars: ²And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered. ³And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads. ⁴And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born. ⁵And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

 

In this passage many theologians agree that this is a flash black to the birth of Christ, who was the manchild, caught up to the throne of God, and who will rule with a rod of iron. The sun passes through 12 zodiac constellations.  There's only one of those that's a woman, and that's Virgo.  So the sun was in the midst of that constellation when John had this vision.  The moon was "under her feet", i.e. the feet of Virgo is pointing to the next zodiac constellation which is Libra.  This means the moon was a new crescent.  And there's only one feast that occurs at this time, and that's the feast of Trumpets. As a side note here, it's interesting to note that the constellation Draco (the dragon) encompasses about 1/3 of the stars in the borders of it's right ascension coordinates. So she was "travailing in birth" at this time or to put it plainly, was delivering a baby at that time.  I'm not limiting the significance and symbolism to timing only, as the woman also represents Israel for example, but the symbols overlap in meaning obviously.

 

What does the feast of Trumpets represent?  It tells of the coming of the King, and a coronation ceremony (and wedding) can also be involved.  So, as with the first coming, so as with the Second Coming in timing is reasonable for me to believe especially in light of this powerful and plain scripture.

 

I won't disagree with the Sunday resurrection as that would be the first day of his being alive again, but it happened at the closing of the Sabbath and opening of Nisan 18 to fulfil firstfruits.  In other words, I'm only saying that he had to be alive for ALL of the day, not sometime later on that same day. So, by our time reckoning, he arose late Saturday, at sundown, 72 hours after he was interred as Nisan 15, the Unleavened Bread feast started. As I always quip, you can sleep late on Easter morning, commemorate the resurrection the evening before.

[Qnts2]

 

 

Jesus was not born on the Feast of Trumpets, plus, the Feast of Trumpets is a fall holy day, which is not yet fulfilled. Assign the wrong meaning to it, and the actually prophetic pointer to Messiah is corrupted. These Holy days were commanded by God for a purpose.  

 

Since birthday celebrations are not biblical commands, but rather traditions, it is far better not to try to mix up biblical commands with extra-biblical traditions. Besides, it is entirely possible that Jesus would have been born in December. It is a reasonable time to celebrate His birth.

 

As far as His resurrection, He was most likely resurrected on a Sunday, as that would be the first fruits wave offering, and Jesus is the first fruits. That would coincide with the beginning of the counting of the omer, which times out perfectly with 'Pentacost'/Shavuot being 50 days later. A Saturday resurrection  makes not sense as it would not align with the holy days as fullfillments.  

 

_____________________________________

 

While I agree with you in principle that the main prophetic meaning of the feast of Trumpets has not occurred yet, I do believe that's a strong assertion on your part that Christ "was not born on the feast of the Trumpets".  How do you really know that?  But I can supply scripture that does point to that. John was describing a vision in Revelation 12 which clearly has astronomical significance as well (as prophecy has multiple fulfilments)

 

And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars: ²And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered. ³And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads. ⁴And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born. ⁵And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

 

In this passage many theologians agree that this is a flash black to the birth of Christ, who was the manchild, caught up to the throne of God, and who will rule with a rod of iron. The sun passes through 12 zodiac constellations.  There's only one of those that's a woman, and that's Virgo.  So the sun was in the midst of that constellation when John had this vision.  The moon was "under her feet", i.e. the feet of Virgo is pointing to the next zodiac constellation which is Libra.  This means the moon was a new crescent.  And there's only one feast that occurs at this time, and that's the feast of Trumpets. As a side note here, it's interesting to note that the constellation Draco (the dragon) encompasses about 1/3 of the stars in the borders of it's right ascension coordinates. So she was "travailing in birth" at this time or to put it plainly, was delivering a baby at that time.  I'm not limiting the significance and symbolism to timing only, as the woman also represents Israel for example, but the symbols overlap in meaning obviously.

 

What does the feast of Trumpets represent?  It tells of the coming of the King, and a coronation ceremony (and wedding) can also be involved.  So, as with the first coming, so as with the Second Coming in timing is reasonable for me to believe especially in light of this powerful and plain scripture.

 

I won't disagree with the Sunday resurrection as that would be the first day of his being alive again, but it happened at the closing of the Sabbath and opening of Nisan 18 to fulfil firstfruits.  In other words, I'm only saying that he had to be alive for ALL of the day, not sometime later on that same day. So, by our time reckoning, he arose late Saturday, at sundown, 72 hours after he was interred as Nisan 15, the Unleavened Bread feast started. As I always quip, you can sleep late on Easter morning, commemorate the resurrection the evening before.

 

 

I do not believe it is a literal 72 hours.

 

But back to Jesus birth. We have a few indications from scripture.  

 

1. The shepherd were in the hills with their sheep. The area of Bethlehem is a moderate desert climate. Because of the desert, for much of the year there is no grass in the hills so no one would take their sheep to graze during Sept or October. The rainy season starts towards the end of October into November. Dec. January, and the hills have grass  in very late November thru March or April. The average temperatures in December are in the high 50'ss. So, no shepherd would be out with their sheep during the time you propose.May thru October is a dry season and there is no grass in the hills.

 

2. There is a complex calculation of the available from information in scripture

 

Luke 1:5  There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the division of Abijah. His wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elizabeth.

  

The division of Abijah is a rotation of groups of priests and when they serve in the Temple. All priests from all groups/courses serve on the Holy days, but the rest of the year are assigned by group. For the division of Abijah, look at 1 Chronicles 24:10. Since we know which group Zacharias was in, we know when he was serving in the Temple. We know from that about when Elizabeth became pregnant. And when the angel visited Mary, we know how far along Elizabeth was, so we have a real good idea when Jesus was born, assuming a normal 9 month gestation.  

 

Luke 1:

²³ So it was, as soon as the days of his service were completed, that he departed to his own house. ²⁴ Now after those days his wife Elizabeth conceived; and she hid herself five months, saying, ²⁵ “Thus the Lord has dealt with me, in the days when He looked on me, to take away my reproach among people.”

²⁶ Now in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent by God to a city of Galilee named Nazareth, ²⁷ to a virgin betrothed to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David. The virgin’s name was Mary. ²⁸ And having come in, the angel said to her, “Rejoice, highly favored one, the Lord is with you; blessed are you among women!”

 

Ok, so Elizabeth was 6 months pregnant when Mary became pregnant.

 

Elizabeths husband served shortly after Passover, and again in the fall. If Mary became pregnant 6 months after the fall service, that would mean Mary became pregnant (conception)  around Passover. From Passover, the 9th month would be around December. So, December fits from the hints concerning when Zacharias served in the Temple, and also fits one of two seasons when the shepherds would be out with their flocks.

 

However, the earliest writer to consider Jesus birth was Clement of Alexandria, in 200 c.e. All of his proposed dates land in the spring, not the fall. The latest date would be May 20th. Going back to the Priest groups/courses, another time Zach would be in the Temple, plus 6 month and then plus 9 months would put the birth in May or June.  Again, we can eliminate June due to climate.

 

Adding: For those who enjoy assigning significance to spiritual signs, the Temple Priests had a flock of sheep tended by shepherds in the area around Bethlehem called Migdal Eder. These lambs were raised to be Temple sacrifices. The lambs born in December and watched in the hills, would be the Passover sacrifice.

[gnomonist]

OK, let me address some of your points you brought up which are good points (my answer in red):

 

 

I do not believe it is a literal 72 hours.

 

I do, and here's why.  Jesus made it plain how long he'd be in the tomb:

Matthew 12:40, and

Jesus himself defined the length of a day:

John 11:9

 

To specifically say 3 days and 3 nights is too precise of a statement, and it ceases to be an idiom any longer, but to be taken literally.  This is an issue understanding about time, and his definition in John 11:9 is indicative how they kept time in those days.

 

But back to Jesus birth. We have a few indications from scripture.  

 

1. The shepherd were in the hills with their sheep. The area of Bethlehem is a moderate desert climate. Because of the desert, for much of the year there is no grass in the hills so no one would take their sheep to graze during Sept or October. The rainy season starts towards the end of October into November. Dec. January, and the hills have grass  in very late November thru March or April. The average temperatures in December are in the high 50'ss. So, no shepherd would be out with their sheep during the time you propose.May thru October is a dry season and there is no grass in the hills.

 

It's interesting that you bring up the subject of sheep, and it's this very issue that some use to prove Christ was not born in December.  The shepherds would not think of subjecting their sheep in the cold, rainy season at night, but only at night during the summer months.  There is basically summer and winter in the bible, no spring or fall.  So the so-called spring feasts begin at winter-to-summer transition and the autumn ones from the summer-to-winter transition. I don't see anybody who says they can't have their sheep out in September, which BTW, is about the month I believe he was born.

 

2. There is a complex calculation of the available from information in scripture

 

Luke 1:5  There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the division of Abijah. His wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elizabeth.

  

The division of Abijah is a rotation of groups of priests and when they serve in the Temple. All priests from all groups/courses serve on the Holy days, but the rest of the year are assigned by group. For the division of Abijah, look at 1 Chronicles 24:10. Since we know which group Zacharias was in, we know when he was serving in the Temple. We know from that about when Elizabeth became pregnant. And when the angel visited Mary, we know how far along Elizabeth was, so we have a real good idea when Jesus was born, assuming a normal 9 month gestation.  

 

Luke 1:

²³ So it was, as soon as the days of his service were completed, that he departed to his own house. ²⁴ Now after those days his wife Elizabeth conceived; and she hid herself five months, saying, ²⁵ “Thus the Lord has dealt with me, in the days when He looked on me, to take away my reproach among people.”

²⁶ Now in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent by God to a city of Galilee named Nazareth, ²⁷ to a virgin betrothed to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David. The virgin’s name was Mary. ²⁸ And having come in, the angel said to her, “Rejoice, highly favored one, the Lord is with you; blessed are you among women!”

 

Ok, so Elizabeth was 6 months pregnant when Mary became pregnant.

 

Elizabeths husband served shortly after Passover, and again in the fall. If Mary became pregnant 6 months after the fall service, that would mean Mary became pregnant (conception)  around Passover. From Passover, the 9th month would be around December. So, December fits from the hints concerning when Zacharias served in the Temple, and also fits one of two seasons when the shepherds would be out with their flocks.

 

However, the earliest writer to consider Jesus birth was Clement of Alexandria, in 200 c.e. All of his proposed dates land in the spring, not the fall. The latest date would be May 20th. Going back to the Priest groups/courses, another time Zach would be in the Temple, plus 6 month and then plus 9 months would put the birth in May or June.  Again, we can eliminate June due to climate.

 

Adding: For those who enjoy assigning significance to spiritual signs, the Temple Priests had a flock of sheep tended by shepherds in the area around Bethlehem called Migdal Eder. These lambs were raised to be Temple sacrifices. The lambs born in December and watched in the hills, would be the Passover sacrifice.

 

I'm aware of the course of Abijah calculation, and again, it's that calculation that again confirms a possible autumn birth according to some theologians.  Zacharias served around the feast of Pentecost and Elizabeth became pregnant not long thereafter.  This would have been approximately June. Thus, Mary would have become pregnant 6 months later, about December.  Even miracle babies took nine months to form, so December plus nine months places one in September. However, the courses are not agreed upon as to the times they served (I heard of two ways to get to that Pentecost calculation) so for that reason I am not as comfortable dogmatically stating anything relating to the courses of the priests. It can be used more to rule out something rather than confirm an absolute.

 

 

[Qnts2]

 

OK, let me address some of your points you brought up which are good points (my answer in red):

 

 

I do not believe it is a literal 72 hours.

 

I do, and here's why.  Jesus made it plain how long he'd be in the tomb:

Matthew 12:40, and

Jesus himself defined the length of a day:

John 11:9

 

To specifically say 3 days and 3 nights is too precise of a statement, and it ceases to be an idiom any longer, but to be taken literally.  This is an issue understanding about time, and his definition in John 11:9 is indicative how they kept time in those days.

 

But back to Jesus birth. We have a few indications from scripture.  

 

1. The shepherd were in the hills with their sheep. The area of Bethlehem is a moderate desert climate. Because of the desert, for much of the year there is no grass in the hills so no one would take their sheep to graze during Sept or October. The rainy season starts towards the end of October into November. Dec. January, and the hills have grass  in very late November thru March or April. The average temperatures in December are in the high 50'ss. So, no shepherd would be out with their sheep during the time you propose.May thru October is a dry season and there is no grass in the hills.

 

It's interesting that you bring up the subject of sheep, and it's this very issue that some use to prove Christ was not born in December.  The shepherds would not think of subjecting their sheep in the cold, rainy season at night, but only at night during the summer months.  There is basically summer and winter in the bible, no spring or fall.  So the so-called spring feasts begin at winter-to-summer transition and the autumn ones from the summer-to-winter transition. I don't see anybody who says they can't have their sheep out in September, which BTW, is about the month I believe he was born.

 

2. There is a complex calculation of the available from information in scripture

 

Luke 1:5  There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the division of Abijah. His wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elizabeth.

  

The division of Abijah is a rotation of groups of priests and when they serve in the Temple. All priests from all groups/courses serve on the Holy days, but the rest of the year are assigned by group. For the division of Abijah, look at 1 Chronicles 24:10. Since we know which group Zacharias was in, we know when he was serving in the Temple. We know from that about when Elizabeth became pregnant. And when the angel visited Mary, we know how far along Elizabeth was, so we have a real good idea when Jesus was born, assuming a normal 9 month gestation.  

 

Luke 1:

²³ So it was, as soon as the days of his service were completed, that he departed to his own house. ²⁴ Now after those days his wife Elizabeth conceived; and she hid herself five months, saying, ²⁵ “Thus the Lord has dealt with me, in the days when He looked on me, to take away my reproach among people.”

²⁶ Now in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent by God to a city of Galilee named Nazareth, ²⁷ to a virgin betrothed to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David. The virgin’s name was Mary. ²⁸ And having come in, the angel said to her, “Rejoice, highly favored one, the Lord is with you; blessed are you among women!”

 

Ok, so Elizabeth was 6 months pregnant when Mary became pregnant.

 

Elizabeths husband served shortly after Passover, and again in the fall. If Mary became pregnant 6 months after the fall service, that would mean Mary became pregnant (conception)  around Passover. From Passover, the 9th month would be around December. So, December fits from the hints concerning when Zacharias served in the Temple, and also fits one of two seasons when the shepherds would be out with their flocks.

 

However, the earliest writer to consider Jesus birth was Clement of Alexandria, in 200 c.e. All of his proposed dates land in the spring, not the fall. The latest date would be May 20th. Going back to the Priest groups/courses, another time Zach would be in the Temple, plus 6 month and then plus 9 months would put the birth in May or June.  Again, we can eliminate June due to climate.

 

Adding: For those who enjoy assigning significance to spiritual signs, the Temple Priests had a flock of sheep tended by shepherds in the area around Bethlehem called Migdal Eder. These lambs were raised to be Temple sacrifices. The lambs born in December and watched in the hills, would be the Passover sacrifice.

 

I'm aware of the course of Abijah calculation, and again, it's that calculation that again confirms a possible autumn birth according to some theologians.  Zacharias served around the feast of Pentecost and Elizabeth became pregnant not long thereafter.  This would have been approximately June. Thus, Mary would have become pregnant 6 months later, about December.  Even miracle babies took nine months to form, so December plus nine months places one in September. However, the courses are not agreed upon as to the times they served (I heard of two ways to get to that Pentecost calculation) so for that reason I am not as comfortable dogmatically stating anything relating to the courses of the priests. It can be used more to rule out something rather than confirm an absolute.

 

 

 

Just a return comment.

 

In Bethlehem, there is no grass to graze on in September or October, so we have to eliminate those months entirely. Pictures of the hills around Bethlehem during December shows lush greenery. I have often wondered at those who claim it can not be December as thinking winter in a climate where winter is very cold. Not so in a Meditteranean, mild climate. Today, there are still some shepherds in the area of Bethlehem, and they graze their sheep in the hills in December.

 

As far as the Priests courses, remember there are 24  divisions, so the Priests serve according to their divisions twice a year. Most who push for a fall birth, forget to mention that. Elizabeths husband would be serving in the Temple in Oct or Nov. That would make Elizabeth at 6 months in March or April. Nine months later would be around December. Fall is actually the least likely timing of the birth due to the weather. No grazing. Others put the birth in the fall, during Succoth, but there would be no question of staying at an inn during Succoth.   

[other one]

According to Luke Jesus was born on September 11, 3BC between 6 and 9 PM.

[gnomonist]

According to Luke Jesus was born on September 11, 3BC between 6 and 9 PM.

______________________________

 

Ah! No fair! You've been looking at the torahcalendar link haven't you?