No Scripture Identifies the Time for the Rapture

[Guest]

Omgeaman

 

Your question/quote form above; (in blue) -

 

I often wonder, and perhaps you can answer:

 

for those who hold that Jesus can come at any time, how long has this been the case? In other word, when Jesus ascended, could he have come back in 20 seconds? or were there things that must happen first. If that is.was the case, what was the last one of those things that was fulfilled so that now, His return is imminent?

 

1.  40 days after He ascended He gave the gift of the HS.  2.  The gospel message had to go out into all the world.  3.  Israel had to be back home in their land.  and Yet future - There needs to be a Temple built.  For there needs to be a sacrifice to be abolished and and A/D to be set up.

 

So since Israel is now a nation, we are now imminent. for the Rapture.

 

How close do you want to get.  How far into the 70th week will you last?  The Second Coming is after the 70th Week.  Yet you say the Rapture occurs near or at the Second Coming.  Who will there be alive to Rapture at this event?

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

Great Marv, a good, direct answer, if not a bit confusing to me. Actually it is not the answer that is confusing, it must be a matter of defining terms or something.

 

Generally, in theological terms, imminence means that there are no predicted events that must be fulfilled before the imminent event occurs.

 

When people say "He could return at any moment", they are saying that "He might return, before I can finish this sentence".

 

I agree with your answers above. For example, that Israel. had to be reborn, and so, in 1948, one of many  predicted events was removed. If that is the case, then his return was not imminent when any of the New Testament was written, nor was it imminent in 1947. Your answers went straight to the core of the reason I asked my question, thanks.

 

The writers certainly had a sense of expectancy, for example, that Jesus could return in their lifetimes, and that can still be said of us today (most of us anyway). However, since there were yet things predicted to occur, His return was not imminent, and still is not. That is what confuses me, that people say he can come back at any moment, then in the next breath say "but not until such and such".

 

I realize that there are those who beleive in true imminency, that he could come back right now, but you do not seem to be of that ilk, you have studied the bible, and seen that that is not quite the case. At least, that is what you appear to be saying if i understand you correctly.

 

Of course the distinction must be kept in mind, that there is a difference between Jesus return at His revelation spoken of in Matt 24 et al, and a pre-trib rapture (if any).

 

So, I am often confused that those who claim to hold to imminence, and a pre-trib rapture, chose to use the verse that "no one knows" as if Jesus was speaking of the rapture, when in context he was not, he was speaking of His visible return after the tribulation, or am I just mistaken and He switched topics without telling us?

 

Another thing that tends to confuse me a little, is what appears to be an identification in the minds of people, between a pre-trib rapture and the doctrine of His imminent return. As if the two are equal, when in fact if His return is imminent, and if we do not know the time of it, then we also do know know that His return is not after the tribulation. Imminence does not require or even imply pre-tribism. It is just as possible, to believe He can come at any moment, the trib role on past us, and still be expecting His imminent return, if fact, I do. I believe that the whole endtimes package, is imminent, and I expect it, and the generation that sees these things will not pass away. However, his return is not imminent, until "immediately after the tribulation", just as the Bible says, and I see no such verbage ever describing a separate return for His saints than the one with His saints.

 

I guess you also asked me some questions:

 

How close do you want to get.  How far into the 70th week will you last?  The Second Coming is after the 70th Week.  Yet you say the Rapture occurs near or at the Second Coming.  Who will there be alive to Rapture at this event?

 

I do not know who will be alive, but it is clear that some will be. "He that endures to the end, will be saved", “If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened." etc. God is not obligated to see a specific number through the tribulation and it hardly matters really, since those who die in it, will be resurrected and go up to meet Jesus before the living are cuaght up, what is the problem?

 

I, as a member of His church, am quite willing to watch the raptured living of the church, follow me up to be with Jesus, living or dead it is all the same. So, since the catching up includes the past dead in Christ, those who die in the tribulation (whether or not they we saved before the trib or during it) plus those who are yet alive at the time, I am guessing it will be a good sized group of saints. Who will be alive  at the rapture, the whole church, God's chosen, some will just be formerly dead.

 

 

 

[John S]

IF there is a Rapture, and that might be a big if, the Scriptures point to it being Post-Trib.

I feel sorry for all of those millions who IMO have been deceived into believing this Pre-Trib view. You WILL be here when the AC arrives.

Edited July 19, 2013 by GoldenEagle
<<< To tone down post. >>>

[Montana Marv]

Omegaman

 

I go by the case that our death is immanent.  We have no idea when we will die.  In the same vein, we do not know when the Rapture will occur.  It is still my opinion the the Bride is a gift from the Father to the Son.  This is why only God the Father knows when this marriage will take place.  When looking at the verse portion of 1 Thes 4:16 "the trumpet call of God.  It is God who does the calling, it is Jesus who does the saving, and it the HS who does the sealing and comforting and nudging, plus some other functions.

 

Here is a trick/awkward question.  When did Scripture begin supporting gay marriage.   NEVER, it has always been against that subject.

 

The real question.  When did Scripture begin supporting/teaching vengeance to those who do us harm.  (for this is where I do not cross the line).

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

[RevelationWriter]

- The Great Multitude who don't die

but stand before God and The Lamb

in White Robes with Palms In Hand

is The Marrigae Of The Lamb. - Rev.7:9

Why do you rearrange the book? The great crowd is the raptured  church, JUST raptured in chapter 7, while the marriage will be 7 plus years into the future, in chapter 19. To be sure, they will BE AT the wedding.

- Rev. 19 is when "The (Marriage) Of The Lamb Has Come".

It Doesn't Say The Wedding Of The Lamb Has Come.

"And The Wife Has Made Herself Ready" (?)

What has the wife made herself ready for?

"The Marriage Supper Of The Lamb" - Rev.19:7

"Blessed Are Those Who Are Called To The Marriage Supper Of The Lamb. - Rev.19:9

[GoldenEagle]

As a reminder from the ToS...

 

Debate the subject, not the person.

 

It is possible to disagree about a doctrine or subject under discussion without insulting the person with whom you are debating.

[Montana Marv]

Omegaman

 

To add to our confusion.  In Matt 24:3 - His disciples ask three direct questions.  When will this happen, What will be the sign of your coming, and the sign of the end of the age.  If one looks a context.  The end of the answers of these questions is at verse 31.  The parables begin in verse 32 and continue on to the end of the chapter and continue on to Chp 25.

 

So from 24:32 through 25:51 Jesus is now on a completely different topic than the three question that were asked.  Remember, the translators put in chapters and verses.  Here I believe a totally different subject matter is being unfolded through these parables. 10  Virgins - five are taken and door was shut, five are left behind.  Two men in the field, one taken, the other is left; two women grinding, one is taken the other  is left.  As in the days of Noah, 8 were taken and the door was shut.

 

Yet when looking at the Second Coming; when Christ comes, heavens door is opened.  For all will see the Return of the King of Kings and Lord of Lords out from heaven above.  Those in heaven above and those still on earth below.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

[Guest]

 

 

The real question.  When did Scripture begin supporting/teaching vengeance to those who do us harm.  (for this is where I do not cross the line).

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

 

Sorry Marv, you might have a great point, but if you did, I totally missed it. Can you explain  what you mean by the above?

[Guest]

Omegaman

 

To add to our confusion.  In Matt 24:3 - His disciples ask three direct questions.  When will this happen, What will be the sign of your coming, and the sign of the end of the age.  If one looks a context.  The end of the answers of these questions is at verse 31.  The parables begin in verse 32 and continue on to the end of the chapter and continue on to Chp 25.

 

So from 24:32 through 25:51 Jesus is now on a completely different topic than the three question that were asked.  Remember, the translators put in chapters and verses.  Here I believe a totally different subject matter is being unfolded through these parables. 10  Virgins - five are taken and door was shut, five are left behind.  Two men in the field, one taken, the other is left; two women grinding, one is taken the other  is left.  As in the days of Noah, 8 were taken and the door was shut.

 

Yet when looking at the Second Coming; when Christ comes, heavens door is opened.  For all will see the Return of the King of Kings and Lord of Lords out from heaven above.  Those in heaven above and those still on earth below.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

We understand the Noaic reference completely different I think. In Noahs time, 8 were not taken, 8 were left behind, the world was taken.

[Montana Marv]

 

 

 

The real question.  When did Scripture begin supporting/teaching vengeance to those who do us harm.  (for this is where I do not cross the line).

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

 

Sorry Marv, you might have a great point, but if you did, I totally missed it. Can you explain  what you mean by the above?

 

 

Omegaman

 

The point I am getting at is two different mind sets. 

 

The first being, NT Believers have been taught to ask for forgiveness and not seek revenge.  Rom 12:14 - Bless those who persecute you, bless and do not curse.  v.19 - Do not take revenge, my friends, but leave room for Gods wrath, for it is written, It is mine to avenge, I will repay, says the Lord. v.20 - If your enemy is hungry, feed him, if he is thirsty, give him something to drink....

 

The second being, these tribulation saints who were beheaded and their souls which under the altar in heaven are asking a question 180 degrees from what NT Believers have been taught.  Rev 6:10 and 11b - They called out in a loud voice, How long Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood.  Then they were told to wait a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and brothers who were to be killed as they had been was completed.  In essence, these saints were beheaded and did not worship the beast or receive his mark, according to Rev 20:4.

 

This is a very select group of saints were are looking at, only those who are beheaded and did not worship the beast or receive his mark. (Only during the last 7 years)  This does not include any other NT saints who have been killed or martyred by other means.  So these killed which are of the 5th Seal cannot be the Bride of Christ.

 

One group is to bless those who persecute us; that being NT believers.  The other group can ask for revenge to those who killed them, the tribulation saints.  What has changed?  When did this revenge doctrine enter the Church?  I do not see it anywhere in Scripture.  Do we bless or ask for revenge?

 

I don't know about you, but for me everything was nailed to the cross.  Christ bore it all.  So I cannot ask for revenge.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

[missmuffet]

 

Hi Montana

 

 

 

You are confusing the Second Coming, which everyone will know that day. Which is after the tribulation of those days. With the Rapture in which no one but the Father knows.

 

Per Scripture I have alreade posted in other threads, as you know,  I believe the (2nd) coming of Jesus and the catching away of His people left on earth at that time called "the rapture" are a simultaneous even, which is after the tribulation of those days, so there is no confusion, at least not  on my part.

 

nikki1

 

So God the Father is not the only one who knows the timing of the Rapture then.  Now the angels in heaven know, and the Son also knows.  Who is going to know next.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

 

Yes