Are their different levels of punishment in hell?

[missmuffet]

 

 

 

It is still hell.It is still eternal torment and punishment.It is not like someone is sitting over in the corner playing around and existing very comfortably.

Eternal torment would be a contradiction of scripture.

The soul that sins dies-our reward promised by Jesus is eternal life with Him. The penalty for those unrepentant is death-the extinguishing of the human spirit forever, not a perpetual torture in some far off place-that is a pagan belief

 

Yes,it is eternal torment.No those who are in hell do not just die.They have a conscious horrible eternal punishment for an eternity.If you want scripture for this I can give it to you.

 

Yes if you don't mind show me what scripture you refer to-in order to have eternal burning you would have to be spirit like Satan-the ones that are unrepentant are flesh and blood (physical still ) and are burnt in Ghenna fire into destruction.

 

Hell is just as real as Heaven.The Bible teaches a place to which the wicked/unbelieving are sent after death Romans 6:23.

Since all of our sin is ultimately against God Psalm 51:4,and since God is an infinate and eternal Being,the punishment for sin,death,must also be infinate and eternal.

The punishment of the wicked dead in hell is described in Scripture as "eternal fire"Matthew 25:41,"unquenchable fire" Matthew 3:12,"shame and everlasting contempt" Daniel 12:2,a place where,"the fire is not quenched" Mark 9:44-49,a place of "torment" and "fire" Luke 16:22-24 "everlasting destruction" 2 Thessalonians 1:9,a place where "the smoke of torment rises forever and ever"Revelation 14:10-11 and a "lake of burning sulfur" where the wicked are "tormented day and night forever and ever" Revelation 20:10.

[B3L13v3R]

Quote Elhanan: "And BTW the Lake of Fire is not eternal"

Quote Elhanan: "The strongest Scripture word used with reference to the existence of God is - 'unto the ages of ages,' which does not literally mean eternally.”   (quoting G. Morgan Campbell) (p. 185-6)"

Quote Elhanan: "An eon is an undefined but finite period of time with a beginning and an end and cannot be construed as eternal."

Quote Elhanan:"I'm not a annihilationist so perhaps you need to read my posts more carefully."

Quote Elhanan: "So the [eternal] fires of Sodom and Gomorrah are still burning and were never extinguished??"

 

Commenting on the above:
Jud 1:7  Even as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities about them (Gen 19:24-25) in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example,
(that is the cities were burned and its occupants killed as they were burned with brimstone and fire in the natural, as an example of what lies in the eternal)
suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
(Not the cities themselves, but its past occupants now living in Hell, awaiting judgment for their final destination, the eternal Lake of Fire.)

You state your not an annihilationist?
If your version of the Lake of Fire is not eternal, as you indicate above, then it is a form of annihilation.
Otherwise, where did those in the eternal Lake of fire go?
I have read your post and quoted them as to why I'm led to conclude this.
Unless perhaps you support some kind of universalism, or purgatorism, a few of the lies that purport all eventually go to heaven no matter what? Or...?

I find "Got Questions" more than fair on a number of subjects Biblically. As with any teaching, one can go deeper.

For the approximately 150,000 that die each day, most (Mat 7:14-15) will wind up in Hell  awaiting on God's judgment.

At a future time, Hell will be emptied out, the people righteously and perfectly judged by God Almighty, and afterwords cast into The Lake of Fire where they will remain for all of eternity.

This is clearly found in God's Word in a number of verses brought up already for both yourself and fruitfull77. Praying for you both.

Our three part being.
1Th 5:23  And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Luke 16:19-31 contains the rich man, Lazarus, and Abraham. It is not a parable, but 3 very real men.
The rich man and his "soul" (mind, will, & emotions) remembered well this side of life, and he still does.
He will never receive the drip of water he desires from Lazarus finger, nor will he through all eternity.

The temporal body will die, soul and spirit will remain, and we will receive a new eternal body.
1Co 15:52-54
In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

[Elhanan]

 

Elhanan,

all i am doing is making the distinction that God is not eternity.  i find it humorous that in the same segment, the author states God is eternal, and then states God just is.  i can appreciate the attempt though.

and i can appreciate your thoughts, thank you for clarifying.  i am sure you understand Why we initially perceive it as 'limitless time' in our plane of existence.

 

here we are, still maneuvering through reasoning and attempting to discern its nature in vain attempts to define it.

 

outside of time, can i stop BEING?   

 

BBTB

Yes God is not eternity if by eternity you mean a separate noun in and of itself.  However he is eternal - an adjective that describes one of his attributes.  God has no beginning and no end; he exists beyond time and is pre-existent. Therefore he IS.  He is the great I AM.  Are you in agreement or disputing that?

 

agreed.  God is.

----------------------

 

in other words:

considering our spiritual state as one in which we have an "Eternal and Qualitative Relationship" With God, in contrast how would you describe a spiritual state "Without God"?

would such a state not necessarily be "eternal" as well?

 

Again, we must be mindful of our definition in order to be consistent in our application.  If aionios life refers to our state of being in relationship to God, then to not have aionios life means NOT being in a state of relationship to God.  In other words separation from God –  to the ages of the ages.

 

OR, we could say to Not have aionios Life, means to have aionios Death.

no?  what say you to these then, brother?

BBTB

Why would I care to speculate on "aionios death" when as I far as I know and maybe I'm wrong but that there is no such phrase in the Greek? No sense speculating on something that Scripture is silent about.  I have a hard enough time wrapping my head around the idea of aionios life as it is - thank you.

 

actually, you were willing to speculate concerning this separation above.

if life with God is eternal life,  and apart from God there is no life, then what could one have in separation from God?  and why would that separation be temporal?

 

I see what you mean now.  The short answer to your question is so that God will someday reconcile all mankind to himself. Jesus said "And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself." Jn 12:32. I recognize that for many (I used to be one too), all does not mean all - the caveat being "all" only applies to believers who come to faith in this life. However Jn 12:32 carries with it a stronger meaning in that the Greek word for "draw" also means "drag" as in fishermen who drag their nets of catch. Jesus will literally drag all men to himself.  I find it interesting that Jesus said we would be fishers of men.  I don't expect anyone to be convinced because of this one verse and I only use it as an example but I know you and I agree that all whose names are not found written in the Book of Life will someday end up in the Lake of Fire. Our difference of opinion lies in whether the Lake of Fires exists for the purpose eternal punishment or temporary aionion chastisement "so that at the name of Jesus every knee will bow, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth," (Phil 2:10).  It is curious to me what every knee "under the earth" might refer to?? After studying this subject for at least a couple of years by examining the internal evidence of the scriptures and the external record of early church belief and history, I find myself siding with option "C."

A)  (God is strong enough to save everyone) + (God does not want to save everyone) = Everyone is not saved  (Calvinism) 

B)  (God is not strong enough to save everyone) + (God does want to save everyone) = Everyone is not saved (Arminianism) 

C)  (God is strong enough to save everyone) + (God does want to save everyone) = Everyone is saved (Universalism)

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Mar 3:28  Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme: 

Mar 3:29  But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation:

BBTB

I find it surprising that you take the English translation at face value without checking what the Greek text actually says:

(Greek/English Interlinear (tr) NT) Mark 3:29 [g] oj [e] <3739> [g] d [e] <1161> [g] an [e] <302> {BUT WHOSOEVER} [g] blasfhmhsh [e] <987> (5661) {SHALL BLASPHEME} [g] eij [e] <1519> {AGAINST} [g] to [e] <3588> {THE} [g] pneuma [e] <4151> {SPIRIT} [g] to [e] <3588> {THE} [g] agion [e] <40> [g] ouk [e] <3756> {HOLY,} [g] ecei [e] <2192> (5719) {HAS NOT} [g] afesin [e] <859> {FORGIVENESS} [g] eij [e] <1519> [g] ton [e] <3588> {TO} [g] aiwna [e] <165> {ETERNITY,} [g] all [e] <235> {BUT} [g] enocoj [e] <1777> {LIABLE TO} [g] estin [e] <2076> (5748) {IS} [g] aiwniou [e] <166> {ETERNAL} [g] krisewj [e] <2920> {JUDGMENT;}

 

Mk 3:29 YLT: but whoever may speak evil in regard to the Holy Spirit hath not forgiveness -- to the age, but is in danger of age-during judgment;

Look at an interlinear for yourself. Do you not find it odd that most translations have corrupted this verse?  The Greek does not say "never has forgiveness" - it plainly says "has not forgiveness unto the age."  All it says is that forgiveness is not available to the age but is liable to age judgment.  Most translators have taken great liberties to imply that forgiveness is never available but the text actually limits unforgiveness & judgment to the age.

 

 

i find it surprising that you believe i would do so.  i thank you for causing me to take a closer look at this.

 

CLV Mk 3:29 yet whoever should be blaspheming against the holy spirit is having no pardon for the eon, but is liable to the eonian penalty for the sin" --

 

Are you using the Concordant Literal Version?  Excellent choice because it renders the verb tenses most accurately and attempts to maintain consistent word translation throughout.

 

aiwniou

G166  aionios  ahee-o'-nee-os

from G165;

perpetual (also used of past time, or past and future as well).

KJV: eternal, for ever, everlasting, world (began).

 

krisews

G2920  krisis  kree'-sis

decision (subjectively or objectively, for or against);

by extension, a tribunal; by implication, justice (especially, divine law).

KJV: accusation, condemnation, damnation, judgment.

 

as i read it, it is an everlasting condemnation, it is a perpetual divine judgement.  

literally, a damnation which endures the age, or the eon.  but how is an age defined biblically?  the obvious common usage is indefiniteness.

 

So to clarify do you mean everlasting or indefinite?  The former means eternal and unending while the latter means a fixed period of time of undetermined length - two different definitions.

 

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Jud 1:6  And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day. 

Jud 1:7  Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire. 

 

So the [eternal] fires of Sodom and Gomorrah are still burning and were never extinguished??

 

aren't you reading a bit into it now?

 

CLV Ju 1:7 As Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities about them in *like manner to these _committing ultra-prostitution, and coming away after different other flesh, are lying~ before us, a specimen, experiencing the justice of fire eonian.

 

but i'll play along.  did they only burn for an age then?  

or is it more plausible that the flames went out shortly thereafter, and the spiritually dead are now suffering the vengeance of eternal fire in eternal judgement?

 

I suppose the verse could be interpreted that way but the way I interpret this verse is that the author uses the fires of Sodom/Gomorrah as an example/specimen of the "eternal" fire of God's judgment. Since we know that the fires of Sodom/Gomorral were only temporary, extinguished and ceased to burn long ago; how can God's fire of judgment be lasting forever or eternal?  I believe the author is employing parallelism here.

------

 

do you believe our souls can die?

if so, then how would you describe the whole period of time ( or eon ) of your soul, within a timeless existence?

 

I don't know whether souls can die - I'm not even sure if we have souls as I have not studied for myself the tripartite vs. bipartite issue. This is conjecture on my part but if a thing such as a soul exists within a timeless existence then the use of the Greek word aidios [eternal] would be appropriate rather than aiwn.

 

Gen 2:7  And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

 

Many would say that the soul is immortal and continues on upon physical death.

Matt 20:28  just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His (psuchen) life [soul] a ransom for many.”

Your turn to answer - Take you pick: life or soul? 

 

in this specific case, He gave His LIFE in order to shed the blood required for the remission of sins.

 

CLV Mt 20:28 even as the Son of Mankind came, not to be served, but to serve, and to give His *soul a ransom instead for many."

 

G5590  psuche  psoo-khay'

from G5594;

breath, i.e. (by implication) spirit, abstractly or concretely (the animal sentient principle only; thus distinguished on the one hand from G4151, which is the rational and immortal soul; and on the other from G2222, which is mere vitality, even of plants: these terms thus exactly correspond respectively to the Hebrew H5315, H7307 and H2416).

KJV: heart (+ -ily), life, mind, soul, + us, + you.

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CLV Lk 23:46 And shouting with a loud voice, Jesus said,  "Father, into Thy hands am I committing My spirit."  Now, saying this, He expires.

 

G4151  pneuma  pnyoo'-mah

from G4154;

a current of air, i.e. breath (blast) or a breeze; by analogy or figuratively, a spirit, i.e. (human) the rational soul, (by implication) vital principle, mental disposition, etc., or (superhuman) an angel, demon, or (divine) God, Christ's spirit, the Holy Spirit. Compare G5590.

KJV: ghost, life, spirit(-ual, -ually), mind.

 

I don't necessarily disagree with anything here as you probably know much more than I in this area. My only point being is that if Jesus gave up his "soul" instead of "life" at the cross then it would seem to entail that his soul died which would then go against those who believe in the inherent immortality of the soul.  Forgive my ignorance at this time. 

 

 

[Elhanan]

if you will concede that:

 

eonian suggests an indefinite duration.

 

then i will concede that:

 

eonian does not necessarily suggest unending.

 

Aye aye, sir. I concur with you!

[fruitfull77]

 

 

 

 

It is still hell.It is still eternal torment and punishment.It is not like someone is sitting over in the corner playing around and existing very comfortably.

Eternal torment would be a contradiction of scripture.

The soul that sins dies-our reward promised by Jesus is eternal life with Him. The penalty for those unrepentant is death-the extinguishing of the human spirit forever, not a perpetual torture in some far off place-that is a pagan belief

 

Yes,it is eternal torment.No those who are in hell do not just die.They have a conscious horrible eternal punishment for an eternity.If you want scripture for this I can give it to you.

 

Yes if you don't mind show me what scripture you refer to-in order to have eternal burning you would have to be spirit like Satan-the ones that are unrepentant are flesh and blood (physical still ) and are burnt in Ghenna fire into destruction.

 

Hell is just as real as Heaven.The Bible teaches a place to which the wicked/unbelieving are sent after death Romans 6:23.

Since all of our sin is ultimately against God Psalm 51:4,and since God is an infinate and eternal Being,the punishment for sin,death,must also be infinate and eternal.

The punishment of the wicked dead in hell is described in Scripture as "eternal fire"Matthew 25:41,"unquenchable fire" Matthew 3:12,"shame and everlasting contempt" Daniel 12:2,a place where,"the fire is not quenched" Mark 9:44-49,a place of "torment" and "fire" Luke 16:22-24 "everlasting destruction" 2 Thessalonians 1:9,a place where "the smoke of torment rises forever and ever"Revelation 14:10-11 and a "lake of burning sulfur" where the wicked are "tormented day and night forever and ever" Revelation 20:10.

 

 

Romans 6:23 confirms that the wages of sinning is death, referring to eternal death if one is not repentant. It does not refer to perpetual tormenting but rather the finale in your existence.Look at Malachi 4:1-3 to behold what God's word says of those who will suffer death by fire as a result of sin.

 

People use Rev 20:7-10 but if you read it closely it is only satan and his evil demons that are tormented forever because they are spirit beings.

It is not referring to human beings like the beast and the false prophet, they were destroyed forever a thousand years earlier.We will have the same fate if we are unrepentant.

We are flesh and blood. We cannot survive gehenna fire when thrown in because we are physical matter.

satan burns forever because he is a spirit being.

As Malachi says, sinners will become ashes under the feet of the righteous 

To get into the meanings of everlasting and ever burning and forever and ever in the bible would be a long study in semantics in scripture.

Did you know there are four different hells described in the Bible? The prominent one being a " grave".

One type of hell is only used when referring to demons.

So I subscribe to the understanding that only satan will suffer the fate of eternal punishing.-the incorrigible human sinners are lucky, they will only be destroyed.

Merciful means shows mercy. God is described that way in the Bible.

He shows mercy by destroying the unrepentant human sinner quickly and permanently, not by perpetually torturing them.

Of course God is the supreme Spirit but we are physical and the punishment he deals out is physical because we are not spirit beings. To survive Gehenna we would have to be given the ultimate righteous gift of eternal life which the godly strive to obtain as our reward of salvation.

To give that gift to the evil doers for the sake of tormenting them robs God of His most Glorious characteristic-showing mercy.