Immodesty and Lust - From a Man's Perspective

[alphaparticle]

 

Not to derail the topic, but to make a side point:

 

Not everytime that the bible speaks of dressing modestly, is it referring to not showing skin, etc.

Dressing in a way that draws attention to yourself, can be immodest. We are encouraged to dress in a subdued, plain manner, not out-doing each other. If you got voted best dressed, you probably did something wrong, lol.

 

The Amish get that part, the Academy Awards doesn't.

 

Isn't this in bold at least in part subjective to the culture you live in? What is a subdued, plain manner here in the U.S.? What is a subdued, plain manner in say S. Africa, Brazil, India, etc.?

 

As far as Biblical passages are you referring to 1 Tim 2:8-10?

1 Tim 2:8-10

⁸ I desire then that in every place the men should pray, lifting holy hands without anger or quarreling; ⁹ likewise also that women should adorn themselves in respectable apparel, with modesty and self-control, not with braided hair and gold or pearls or costly attire, ¹⁰ but with what is proper for women who profess godliness—with good works.

 

...or perhaps 1 Peter 3:1-7?

 

1 Peter 3:1-7

 

3 Likewise, wives, be subject to your own husbands, so that even if some do not obey the word, they may be won without a word by the conduct of their wives, ² when they see your respectful and pure conduct. ³ Do not let your adorning be external—the braiding of hair and the putting on of gold jewelry, or the clothing you wear— ⁴ but let your adorning be the hidden person of the heart with the imperishable beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which in God's sight is very precious. ⁵ For this is how the holy women who hoped in God used to adorn themselves, by submitting to their own husbands, ⁶ as Sarah obeyed Abraham, calling him lord. And you are her children, if you do good and do not fear anything that is frightening.

⁷ Likewise, husbands, live with your wives in an understanding way, showing honor to the woman as the weaker vessel, since they are heirs with you of the grace of life, so that your prayers may not be hindered.

 

God bless,

GE

 

I have to agree with this. What if a woman goes around dressed in amish clothes, outside of an amish community, in part to advertise how modest and righteous she is? What if she is doing it to get adulation and enjoys playing the martyr if people criticize her? In the meantime, a woman who lives in a community in which the vast majority of women more revealing clothing, merely thinks she's dressing appropriately, without much more thought. Why is the latter woman sinning but the former woman not?

[oldzimm]

 

 

Not to derail the topic, but to make a side point:

 

Not everytime that the bible speaks of dressing modestly, is it referring to not showing skin, etc.

Dressing in a way that draws attention to yourself, can be immodest. We are encouraged to dress in a subdued, plain manner, not out-doing each other. If you got voted best dressed, you probably did something wrong, lol.

 

The Amish get that part, the Academy Awards doesn't.

 

Isn't this in bold at least in part subjective to the culture you live in? What is a subdued, plain manner here in the U.S.? What is a subdued, plain manner in say S. Africa, Brazil, India, etc.?

 

As far as Biblical passages are you referring to 1 Tim 2:8-10?

1 Tim 2:8-10

⁸ I desire then that in every place the men should pray, lifting holy hands without anger or quarreling; ⁹ likewise also that women should adorn themselves in respectable apparel, with modesty and self-control, not with braided hair and gold or pearls or costly attire, ¹⁰ but with what is proper for women who profess godliness—with good works.

 

...or perhaps 1 Peter 3:1-7?

 

1 Peter 3:1-7

 

3 Likewise, wives, be subject to your own husbands, so that even if some do not obey the word, they may be won without a word by the conduct of their wives, ² when they see your respectful and pure conduct. ³ Do not let your adorning be external—the braiding of hair and the putting on of gold jewelry, or the clothing you wear— ⁴ but let your adorning be the hidden person of the heart with the imperishable beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which in God's sight is very precious. ⁵ For this is how the holy women who hoped in God used to adorn themselves, by submitting to their own husbands, ⁶ as Sarah obeyed Abraham, calling him lord. And you are her children, if you do good and do not fear anything that is frightening.

⁷ Likewise, husbands, live with your wives in an understanding way, showing honor to the woman as the weaker vessel, since they are heirs with you of the grace of life, so that your prayers may not be hindered.

 

God bless,

GE

 

I have to agree with this. What if a woman goes around dressed in amish clothes, outside of an amish community, in part to advertise how modest and righteous she is? What if she is doing it to get adulation and enjoys playing the martyr if people criticize her? In the meantime, a woman who lives in a community in which the vast majority of women more revealing clothing, merely thinks she's dressing appropriately, without much more thought. Why is the latter woman sinning but the former woman not?

 

Alpha, you keep beating a dead horse in this thread, because you keep looking at this through worldly eyes and not though spiritual eyes. Hey we didn't make the rules, God did and who are you or any of us for that matter, that can say " God I think you went a little to far on this one".

 

As for your last post, it's an easy answer, both women could be sinning. The Amish woman for she might be prideful, God hates pride, and the other woman because her cloths might be too revealing.

 

Now lets look at this topic from a different angle. People go to the beach, people wear swimsuits at the beach, women wear bikinis at the beach, no big deal because it is the beach and people do swim there (believe it or not). Here a man with a problem with lust should not go to the beach, it's not helping him break the chains of lust.

 

(I might add here that there are some so called swimsuits that shouldn't be worn at the beach either. Little Johnny might be looking at more then the sea shells.)

 

Now should those women wearing the bikinis at the beach wear them to Church? (NO,not even if their being baptized) The man with a problem with lust goes to Church to break those chains, he sitting in a pew and here comes these women in wearing bikinis, what is he to think? He is going to think that he can't break his chains because going to Church isn't helping him. (and a soul is lost)

 

Oldzimm

[alphaparticle]

 

 

 

Not to derail the topic, but to make a side point:

 

Not everytime that the bible speaks of dressing modestly, is it referring to not showing skin, etc.

Dressing in a way that draws attention to yourself, can be immodest. We are encouraged to dress in a subdued, plain manner, not out-doing each other. If you got voted best dressed, you probably did something wrong, lol.

 

The Amish get that part, the Academy Awards doesn't.

 

Isn't this in bold at least in part subjective to the culture you live in? What is a subdued, plain manner here in the U.S.? What is a subdued, plain manner in say S. Africa, Brazil, India, etc.?

 

As far as Biblical passages are you referring to 1 Tim 2:8-10?

1 Tim 2:8-10

⁸ I desire then that in every place the men should pray, lifting holy hands without anger or quarreling; ⁹ likewise also that women should adorn themselves in respectable apparel, with modesty and self-control, not with braided hair and gold or pearls or costly attire, ¹⁰ but with what is proper for women who profess godliness—with good works.

 

...or perhaps 1 Peter 3:1-7?

 

1 Peter 3:1-7

 

3 Likewise, wives, be subject to your own husbands, so that even if some do not obey the word, they may be won without a word by the conduct of their wives, ² when they see your respectful and pure conduct. ³ Do not let your adorning be external—the braiding of hair and the putting on of gold jewelry, or the clothing you wear— ⁴ but let your adorning be the hidden person of the heart with the imperishable beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which in God's sight is very precious. ⁵ For this is how the holy women who hoped in God used to adorn themselves, by submitting to their own husbands, ⁶ as Sarah obeyed Abraham, calling him lord. And you are her children, if you do good and do not fear anything that is frightening.

⁷ Likewise, husbands, live with your wives in an understanding way, showing honor to the woman as the weaker vessel, since they are heirs with you of the grace of life, so that your prayers may not be hindered.

 

God bless,

GE

 

I have to agree with this. What if a woman goes around dressed in amish clothes, outside of an amish community, in part to advertise how modest and righteous she is? What if she is doing it to get adulation and enjoys playing the martyr if people criticize her? In the meantime, a woman who lives in a community in which the vast majority of women more revealing clothing, merely thinks she's dressing appropriately, without much more thought. Why is the latter woman sinning but the former woman not?

 

Alpha, you keep beating a dead horse in this thread, because you keep looking at this through worldly eyes and not though spiritual eyes. Hey we didn't make the rules, God did and who are you or any of us for that matter, that can say " God I think you went a little to far on this one".

 

As for your last post, it's an easy answer, both women could be sinning. The Amish woman for she might be prideful, God hates pride, and the other woman because her cloths might be too revealing.

 

Now lets look at this topic from a different angle. People go to the beach, people wear swimsuits at the beach, women wear bikinis at the beach, no big deal because it is the beach and people do swim there (believe it or not). Here a man with a problem with lust should not go to the beach, it's not helping him break the chains of lust.

 

(I might add here that there are some so called swimsuits that shouldn't be worn at the beach either. Little Johnny might be looking at more then the sea shells.)

 

Now should those women wearing the bikinis at the beach wear them to Church? (NO,not even if their being baptized) The man with a problem with lust goes to Church to break those chains, he sitting in a pew and here comes these women in wearing bikinis, what is he to think? He is going to think that he can't break his chains because going to Church isn't helping him. (and a soul is lost)

 

Oldzimm

 

Do you think that a woman who wears a t shirt and capris is sinning?

[JDavis]

No, that isn't what I said. What I said is that if you want to judge a woman for what she is wearing it makes no sense to *not* take into account the cultural standard since what is modest in one place and time is completely different in another. That is just a fact. In 1800 US it would be completely inappropriate for a woman to go around in an outfit that is considered perfectly fine to us now, say, capris and a t shirt. Similarly, if a woman went to Saudi Arabia now wearing that she would be considered extremely immodest. Not taking into account the place and time you are at will not allow you to properly judge the intentions of the person wearing whatever it is they are are.

The other thing that people should take into account is the feelings of the person in question, who is told that their clothing is 'inappropriate'. The way that people are talking about women in this thread disturb me.

It is very simple God has set forth a moral code in everyman and as man exercises his will either for or against that code determines what authority will be for that man,

Either the world and all that is contained therein or God -which is guided by His Holy Spirit and His Word... Love, Steven

The Bible doesn't lay down a dress code in detail. What counts as modest now (capris and t shirt) would have been obscene 200 years ago.

The Bible does not lay down a dress code?Yes it does.

Matthew 5:27-29“You have heard that it was said to those of old,^[a] ‘You shall not commit adultery.’^{[b] 28} But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart. ²⁹ If your right eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell.

Proverbs 7:10And there a woman met him,

With the attire of a harlot, and a crafty heart.

The verses from Matthew deal with the one lusting, not about clothes being worn.

One who struggles with lust can find any clothing lust bringing

[enoob57]

From John MacArthur:

The Appearance Of Women

How does a woman discern the sometimes fine line between proper dress and dressing to be the center of attention? The answer starts in the intent of the heart. A woman should examine her motives and goals for the way she dresses. Is her intent to show the grace and beauty of womanhood? Is it to show her love and devotion to her husband and his goodness to her? Is it to reveal a humble heart devoted to worshiping God? Or is it to call attention to herself, and flaunt her wealth and beauty? Or worse, to attempt to allure men sexually? A woman who focuses on worshiping God will consider carefully how she is dressed, because her heart will dictate her wardrobe and appearance.

(from The MacArthur New Testament Commentary, Copyright © Moody Press and John MacArthur, Jr., 1983-2007.)

The dress code of God:

1 Tim 2:9-10

9 in like manner also, that the women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with propriety

and moderation, not with braided hair or gold or pearls or costly clothing, 10 but, which is

proper for women professing godliness, with good works.

NKJV

1 Peter 3:1-6

 2 when they observe your chaste conduct accompanied by fear. 3 Do not let your adornment

be merely outward — arranging the hair, wearing gold, or putting on fine apparel —  4 rather

let it be the hidden person of the heart, with the incorruptible beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit,

which is very precious in the sight of God. 5 For in this manner, in former times, the holy women

who trusted in God also adorned themselves, being submissive to their own husbands, 6 as

Sarah obeyed Abraham, calling him lord, whose daughters you are if you do good and are not

afraid with any terror.

NKJV

Is it not unique that within them is this knowledge- and those looking for legislation from without

brings concern of what is lacking within!  Love, Steven

 

[Sevenseas]

 

The verses from Matthew deal with the one lusting, not about clothes being worn.

One who struggles with lust can find any clothing lust bringing

 

 

 

I agree.  The verses offered from Matthew 5 have nothing to do with a woman is wearing.  

 

The Bible deals with our hearts...the rest follows.   

[JDavis]

 

From John MacArthur:

The Appearance Of Women

How does a woman discern the sometimes fine line between proper dress and dressing to be the center of attention? The answer starts in the intent of the heart. A woman should examine her motives and goals for the way she dresses. Is her intent to show the grace and beauty of womanhood? Is it to show her love and devotion to her husband and his goodness to her? Is it to reveal a humble heart devoted to worshiping God? Or is it to call attention to herself, and flaunt her wealth and beauty? Or worse, to attempt to allure men sexually? A woman who focuses on worshiping God will consider carefully how she is dressed, because her heart will dictate her wardrobe and appearance.

(from The MacArthur New Testament Commentary, Copyright © Moody Press and John MacArthur, Jr., 1983-2007.)

The dress code of God:

1 Tim 2:9-10

9 in like manner also, that the women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with propriety

and moderation, not with braided hair or gold or pearls or costly clothing, 10 but, which is

proper for women professing godliness, with good works.

NKJV

1 Peter 3:1-6

 2 when they observe your chaste conduct accompanied by fear. 3 Do not let your adornment

be merely outward — arranging the hair, wearing gold, or putting on fine apparel —  4 rather

let it be the hidden person of the heart, with the incorruptible beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit,

which is very precious in the sight of God. 5 For in this manner, in former times, the holy women

who trusted in God also adorned themselves, being submissive to their own husbands, 6 as

Sarah obeyed Abraham, calling him lord, whose daughters you are if you do good and are not

afraid with any terror.

NKJV

Is it not unique that within them is this knowledge- and those looking for legislation from without

brings concern of what is lacking within!  Love, Steven

 

 

 

 

And the meaning of those words you bolded have had a 100 different meanings since they were written.

In fact what they mean to you has more to do with when and where you were born than anything from the Bible.

[other one]

 

The verses from Matthew deal with the one lusting, not about clothes being worn.

One who struggles with lust can find any clothing lust bringing

 

one of the most alluring pictures I've ever seen was of my wife wearing a silk dress very similar to this one only  yellow.

 

[GoldenEagle]

 

From John MacArthur:

The Appearance Of Women

How does a woman discern the sometimes fine line between proper dress and dressing to be the center of attention? The answer starts in the intent of the heart. A woman should examine her motives and goals for the way she dresses. Is her intent to show the grace and beauty of womanhood? Is it to show her love and devotion to her husband and his goodness to her? Is it to reveal a humble heart devoted to worshiping God? Or is it to call attention to herself, and flaunt her wealth and beauty? Or worse, to attempt to allure men sexually? A woman who focuses on worshiping God will consider carefully how she is dressed, because her heart will dictate her wardrobe and appearance.

(from The MacArthur New Testament Commentary, Copyright © Moody Press and John MacArthur, Jr., 1983-2007.)

The dress code of God:

1 Tim 2:9-10

9 in like manner also, that the women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with propriety

and moderation, not with braided hair or gold or pearls or costly clothing, 10 but, which is

proper for women professing godliness, with good works.

NKJV

1 Peter 3:1-6

 2 when they observe your chaste conduct accompanied by fear. 3 Do not let your adornment

be merely outward — arranging the hair, wearing gold, or putting on fine apparel —  4 rather

let it be the hidden person of the heart, with the incorruptible beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit,

which is very precious in the sight of God. 5 For in this manner, in former times, the holy women

who trusted in God also adorned themselves, being submissive to their own husbands, 6 as

Sarah obeyed Abraham, calling him lord, whose daughters you are if you do good and are not

afraid with any terror.

NKJV

Is it not unique that within them is this knowledge- and those looking for legislation from without

brings concern of what is lacking within!  Love, Steven

 

 

 

Some observations...

Modest apparel changes from one generation to the next.

Modest apparel changes from one culture to the next.

 

I think Sevenseas had a good point...

 

 

 

 

The Bible deals with our hearts...the rest follows.   

 

 

Yup. It's a heart issue.

 

God bless,

GE

 

[GoldenEagle]

 

 

 

 

The Bible doesn't lay down a dress code in detail. What counts as modest now (capris and t shirt) would have been obscene 200 years ago.

 

 

 

The Bible does not lay down a dress code? Yes it does.

 

Matthew 5:27-29“You have heard that it was said to those of old,^[a] ‘You shall not commit adultery.’^{[b] 28} But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart. ²⁹ If your right eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell.

 

Proverbs 7:10And there a woman met him,

With the attire of a harlot, and a crafty heart.

 

 

What is the attire of a harlot Bo? Please clarify.

God bless,

GE

 

A harlot is a lady with no morals or values.

 

 

I understand what a harlot is Bo... I asked what does a harlot wear (attire)? Is that determined by culture, generation, or is there a Biblical standard?

God bless,

GE