Seeing a Woman: A conversation between a father and son

[firestormx]

I agree that men should not treat and view women as objects of lust, but be treated based upon the content of their character, based upon who they are. I also think topics like this are scapegoat topics for women. I see the message to women is, dress how you want, do what you want,  Walk around naked if you like, it's all the man's problem if he looks at you in lust. It's all the man's responsibility.  As a woman you bear no responsibility at all.

[Sevenseas]

I agree that men should not treat and view women as objects of lust, but be treated based upon the content of their character, based upon who they are. I also think topics like this are scapegoat topics for women. I see the message to women is, dress how you want, do what you want,  Walk around naked if you like, it's all the man's problem if he looks at you in lust. It's all the man's responsibility.  As a woman you bear no responsibility at all.

 

No.  Absolutely not.  I think you and BoPeep need to actually READ the article.  It is not saying what BoPeep is trying to say and it is not saying what appears to be a bit

of an angry rant as expressed by you.

 

I'm a pretty fair person...I think you would agree?  The article states absolutely nothing even close to what you are expressing.

 

Now I would like to know how to encourage participators to leave out personal prejudices and approach what is apparently a new concept for them with an unbiased heart

and maybe help others by helping themselves to see PAST the closed door thinking that appears to be persuading them that its business as usual,.

 

Gracious....how on earth does an op become so very badly distorted?

 

The portion in bold print is very unfair and has no bearing on what is being discussed.  I find that remark extremely prejudiced and actually disrespectful to the majority of women

writing in these forums.  I certainly find it objectionable.  I'm not looking for an apology...I just wish we could be adults and see past our own narrow thinking.

[firestormx]

 

I agree that men should not treat and view women as objects of lust, but be treated based upon the content of their character, based upon who they are. I also think topics like this are scapegoat topics for women. I see the message to women is, dress how you want, do what you want,  Walk around naked if you like, it's all the man's problem if he looks at you in lust. It's all the man's responsibility.  As a woman you bear no responsibility at all.

 

No.  Absolutely not.  I think you and BoPeep need to actually READ the article.  It is not saying what BoPeep is trying to say and it is not saying what appears to be a bit

of an angry rant as expressed by you.

 

I'm a pretty fair person...I think you would agree?  The article states absolutely nothing even close to what you are expressing.

 

Now I would like to know how to encourage participators to leave out personal prejudices and approach what is apparently a new concept for them with an unbiased heart

and maybe help others by helping themselves to see PAST the closed door thinking that appears to be persuading them that its business as usual,.

 

Gracious....how on earth does an op become so very badly distorted?

 

The portion in bold print is very unfair and has no bearing on what is being discussed.  I find that remark extremely prejudiced and actually disrespectful to the majority of women

writing in these forums.  I certainly find it objectionable.  I'm not looking for an apology...I just wish we could be adults and see past our own narrow thinking.

 

Nice way to misrepresent what I said. I said that is how I understand the message the topic/article gives to women. I did not address what I said to any woman here. I think you are the one with a prejudiced. Always the man's responsibility, never the woman's. I guess my assumption was correct. All lust is 100% all men's fault and responsibility and not women's.

[nebula]

I also think topics like this are scapegoat topics for women. I see the message to women is, dress how you want, do what you want,  Walk around naked if you like, it's all the man's problem if he looks at you in lust. It's all the man's responsibility.  As a woman you bear no responsibility at all.

 

*Headdesk*

 

No, not at all.

 

Consider this: 

 

If someone posted a "Conversation between mother and daughter", where the mother teaches the woman of dressing properly and to not find her value in vanity and attention, would you consider "topics like this" to be a "scapegoat topic" for men?

 

 

No, this topic was a message to MEN, not a message to women.

 

I would bet most of us females who interact on this forum dress conservatively. Have you seen the thread on If you want to express your case against women who dress scantily, then please come and join our discussion in there and vent to your heart's content!

 

 

But this thread here is for males, and it is a good message. 

 

Do you disagree with the lesson?

[firestormx]

 

I also think topics like this are scapegoat topics for women. I see the message to women is, dress how you want, do what you want,  Walk around naked if you like, it's all the man's problem if he looks at you in lust. It's all the man's responsibility.  As a woman you bear no responsibility at all.

 

*Headdesk*

 

No, not at all.

 

Consider this: 

 

If someone posted a "Conversation between mother and daughter", where the mother teaches the woman of dressing properly and to not find her value in vanity and attention, would you consider "topics like this" to be a "scapegoat topic" for men?

 

 

No, this topic was a message to MEN, not a message to women.

 

I would bet most of us females who interact on this forum dress conservatively. Have you seen the thread on If you want to express your case against women who dress scantily, then please come and join our discussion in there and vent to your heart's content!

 

 

But this thread here is for males, and it is a good message. 

 

Do you disagree with the lesson?

 

If the article was written as this one was, then yes. I would consider it a scapegoat topic for men.

 

2. That's the point. It to men. but 1. women read it and 2 it still gives the message that women bear no responsibility.

 

3. I said in my first post what I think. I started my post with what I think of the article or the lesson. I will add we can only control ourselves, no one and nothing else. My problem is not that it is not a good message. It is a good message, but it's also 1 sided. It refuses to acknowledge a women's equal role in lust.

[nebula]

If the article was written as this one was, then yes. I would consider it a scapegoat topic for men.

 

 

2. That's the point. It to men. but 1. women read it and 2 it still gives the message that women bear no responsibility.

 

3. I said in my first post what I think. I started my post with what I think of the article or the lesson. I will add we can only control ourselves, no one and nothing else. My problem is not that it is not a good message. It is a good message, but it's also 1 sided. It refuses to acknowledge a women's equal role in lust.

 

 

Dear firestorm, why should a father-son discussion preach to women?

 

 

But The author is not discarding a woman's responsibility by any means.

 

It is a woman’s responsibility to dress herself in the morning.  It is your responsibility to look at her like a human being regardless of what she is wearing.  You will feel the temptation to blame her for your wandering eyes because of what she is wearing – or not wearing.  But don’t.  Don’t play the victim.  You are not a helpless victim when it comes to your eyes.  You have full control over them.  Exercise that control.  Train them to look her in the eyes.  Discipline yourself to see her, not her clothes or her body.  The moment you play the victim you fall into the lie that you are simply embodied reaction to external stimuli unable to determine right from wrong, human from flesh.

 

The author acknowledges this topic as a two-way street. 

 

But why preach to his son a woman's responsibility? How will this help him?

 

What is wrong with teaching a young man how to overcome temptation?

 

 

But women of the world will dress as the world, and you have no control over that. What are you going to do about it - stew? curse? focus on your temptation struggle? Or will focus on crucifying your flesh? The author gives an awesome tool to teach his son how to overcome temptation. Why is this something to get angry at?

 

 

But as for a mother-daughter topic on the matter with the same caliber, she would explain to her daughter about the sin of vanity and the temptation to out-shine the other girls around her, and she would teach her how to overcome this temptation.

 

Truly, I would love to see a mother-daughter topic of this caliber. Not to focus on "what dressing this way does to men", but on teaching the counter to vanity and how to overcome peer pressure through love.

 

That is what girls need to hear. For the way women dress is all a vanity issue. 

 

 

Truly, if such a letter were written, I would not be crying how this takes responsibility away from men. I would be thanking the author for giving me a tool for overcoming a very real struggle I and most other women struggle with every day.

[Sevenseas]

 

 

I agree that men should not treat and view women as objects of lust, but be treated based upon the content of their character, based upon who they are. I also think topics like this are scapegoat topics for women. I see the message to women is, dress how you want, do what you want,  Walk around naked if you like, it's all the man's problem if he looks at you in lust. It's all the man's responsibility.  As a woman you bear no responsibility at all.

 

No.  Absolutely not.  I think you and BoPeep need to actually READ the article.  It is not saying what BoPeep is trying to say and it is not saying what appears to be a bit

of an angry rant as expressed by you.

 

I'm a pretty fair person...I think you would agree?  The article states absolutely nothing even close to what you are expressing.

 

Now I would like to know how to encourage participators to leave out personal prejudices and approach what is apparently a new concept for them with an unbiased heart

and maybe help others by helping themselves to see PAST the closed door thinking that appears to be persuading them that its business as usual,.

 

Gracious....how on earth does an op become so very badly distorted?

 

The portion in bold print is very unfair and has no bearing on what is being discussed.  I find that remark extremely prejudiced and actually disrespectful to the majority of women

writing in these forums.  I certainly find it objectionable.  I'm not looking for an apology...I just wish we could be adults and see past our own narrow thinking.

 

Nice way to misrepresent what I said. I said that is how I understand the message the topic/article gives to women. I did not address what I said to any woman here. I think you are the one with a prejudiced. Always the man's responsibility, never the woman's. I guess my assumption was correct. All lust is 100% all men's fault and responsibility and not women's.

 

 

 

Sorry.  No.  Not at all.  This line:

 Walk around naked if you like, it's all the man's problem if he looks at you in lust. It's all the man's responsibility.  As a woman you bear no responsibility at all.

 

You aren't asking questions fire...you are making a sarcastic comment.  I didn't misrepresent you...you are misrepresenting yourself now.

 

The article says nothing at all even vaguely close to what you state...so you either did not read it, read it and completely misunderstood, or believe for some reason I cannot

for the life of me figure out, that women want to somehow blame men for everything.

 

I don't have your background but I can assure you, that I do not see men as victims and and I don't see all women as closet seducers.  Broaden your outlook a little bit here

and try to understand what is actually being said.  I did not misrepresent you....you were quite sarcastic and inflamatory.

 

Do we really need another thread with that kind of defensive and unnecessary diatribe?

[firestormx]

 

 

 

I agree that men should not treat and view women as objects of lust, but be treated based upon the content of their character, based upon who they are. I also think topics like this are scapegoat topics for women. I see the message to women is, dress how you want, do what you want,  Walk around naked if you like, it's all the man's problem if he looks at you in lust. It's all the man's responsibility.  As a woman you bear no responsibility at all.

 

No.  Absolutely not.  I think you and BoPeep need to actually READ the article.  It is not saying what BoPeep is trying to say and it is not saying what appears to be a bit

of an angry rant as expressed by you.

 

I'm a pretty fair person...I think you would agree?  The article states absolutely nothing even close to what you are expressing.

 

Now I would like to know how to encourage participators to leave out personal prejudices and approach what is apparently a new concept for them with an unbiased heart

and maybe help others by helping themselves to see PAST the closed door thinking that appears to be persuading them that its business as usual,.

 

Gracious....how on earth does an op become so very badly distorted?

 

The portion in bold print is very unfair and has no bearing on what is being discussed.  I find that remark extremely prejudiced and actually disrespectful to the majority of women

writing in these forums.  I certainly find it objectionable.  I'm not looking for an apology...I just wish we could be adults and see past our own narrow thinking.

 

Nice way to misrepresent what I said. I said that is how I understand the message the topic/article gives to women. I did not address what I said to any woman here. I think you are the one with a prejudiced. Always the man's responsibility, never the woman's. I guess my assumption was correct. All lust is 100% all men's fault and responsibility and not women's.

 

 

 

Sorry.  No.  Not at all.  This line:

 Walk around naked if you like, it's all the man's problem if he looks at you in lust. It's all the man's responsibility.  As a woman you bear no responsibility at all.

 

You aren't asking questions fire...you are making a sarcastic comment.  I didn't misrepresent you...you are misrepresenting yourself now.

 

The article says nothing at all even vaguely close to what you state...so you either did not read it, read it and completely misunderstood, or believe for some reason I cannot

for the life of me figure out, that women want to somehow blame men for everything.

 

I don't have your background but I can assure you, that I do not see men as victims and and I don't see all women as closet seducers.  Broaden your outlook a little bit here

and try to understand what is actually being said.  I did not misrepresent you....you were quite sarcastic and inflamatory.

 

Do we really need another thread with that kind of defensive and unnecessary diatribe?

 

 

That's not a question. You have pulled part of a statement  out and are now twisting it. I said that is how I see the message to women. That is a statement on my personal view of the topic/ article.

 

Can't figure it out. Maybe because you are sitting here, misrepresenting me and bashing me for sharing my view just because you don't agree.

[Sevenseas]

But women of the world will dress as the world, and you have no control over that. What are you going to do about it - stew? curse? focus on your temptation struggle? Or will focus on crucifying your flesh? The author gives an awesome tool to teach his son how to overcome temptation. Why is this something to get angry at?

 

 

It's like driving down a road with a dead end or the bridge washed out and insisting that the road continues...it doesn't and when you hit the wall, you blame the person who put the

sign there that told you the road was a dead end.

 

I really didn't grow up with the attitude that all women or all men were one way or the other ....  I guess I was blessed in that my dad taught me different...but I mean no matter how many

times we go over and over and over this subject,  it ends the same way.  Badly.

 

I'm not going to get embroiled in this one.  I know better and I don't think it's my 'job' to insist that other people behave like I wish they would.

 

Sorry....unless the tone changes, I see no point in constantly trying to convince someone that I did not say what they say I did or that an article written in black and white says

something other than what it actually really and truly states.  There is a spiritual principal here that is being violated and ignored and it is grievous and I do not want to

be a part of it.

 

I have some thoughts on why it keeps going back to lust, blame and anger, but that would just start another round. 

[firestormx]

 

If the article was written as this one was, then yes. I would consider it a scapegoat topic for men.

 

 

2. That's the point. It to men. but 1. women read it and 2 it still gives the message that women bear no responsibility.

 

3. I said in my first post what I think. I started my post with what I think of the article or the lesson. I will add we can only control ourselves, no one and nothing else. My problem is not that it is not a good message. It is a good message, but it's also 1 sided. It refuses to acknowledge a women's equal role in lust.

 

 

Dear firestorm, why should a father-son discussion preach to women?

 

 

But The author is not discarding a woman's responsibility by any means.

 

It is a woman’s responsibility to dress herself in the morning.  It is your responsibility to look at her like a human being regardless of what she is wearing.  You will feel the temptation to blame her for your wandering eyes because of what she is wearing – or not wearing.  But don’t.  Don’t play the victim.  You are not a helpless victim when it comes to your eyes.  You have full control over them.  Exercise that control.  Train them to look her in the eyes.  Discipline yourself to see her, not her clothes or her body.  The moment you play the victim you fall into the lie that you are simply embodied reaction to external stimuli unable to determine right from wrong, human from flesh.

 

The author acknowledges this topic as a two-way street. 

 

But why preach to his son a woman's responsibility? How will this help him?

 

What is wrong with teaching a young man how to overcome temptation?

 

 

But women of the world will dress as the world, and you have no control over that. What are you going to do about it - stew? curse? focus on your temptation struggle? Or will focus on crucifying your flesh? The author gives an awesome tool to teach his son how to overcome temptation. Why is this something to get angry at?

 

 

But as for a mother-daughter topic on the matter with the same caliber, she would explain to her daughter about the sin of vanity and the temptation to out-shine the other girls around her, and she would teach her how to overcome this temptation.

 

Truly, I would love to see a mother-daughter topic of this caliber. Not to focus on "what dressing this way does to men", but on teaching the counter to vanity and how to overcome peer pressure through love.

 

That is what girls need to hear. For the way women dress is all a vanity issue. 

 

 

Truly, if such a letter were written, I would not be crying how this takes responsibility away from men. I would be thanking the author for giving me a tool for overcoming a very real struggle I and most other women struggle with every day.

 

This is the other side of the extreme. one side says everything is every one else's fault for lust. The other says everything is my fault for lust. Both are false. Both men and women bear responsibility for lust.