One Way Love: An Antidote to Legalism?

[Guest man]

 

I mean, if you read that adulterers won't inherit the Kingdom of Heaven, if you are a womanizer, you might get scared and stop cheating?  We can't have that.  That would be legalism, and performance based salvation.  You might have a drunk who reads about how drunkards won't inherit the Kingdom of Heaven.  They might get scared and stop drinking? 

 

 

Nope.  Fear is not an impediment to sin.  I know sinners who understand that they are going to hell, but that realization doesn’t serve as any kind of motivation to stop sinning.  The love sin more than they love the truth.  They know the truth and they understand that their eternal future is at stake, but they have rejected the truth because sin is more attractive.

 

 

 

 

So you're saying that all sinners have no fear of eternal damnation. I find that hard to believe. Especially since the bible teaches just the opposite. 

[Guest Butero]

 

 

In a nutshell, here is how I take this guy's doctrine.  Lets suppose someone comes here and asks if it is wrong to do something, anything?  I will use adultery as an example.  The legalist would tell them it is a sin that will keep them out of heaven, but the enlightened people of today would point out we are no longer under law but grace.  As such, it is technically wrong, but don't sweat it.  Our salvation isn't based on how we live.  We can't do anything to lose it, and it is heresy to suggest otherwise.  Everyone sins, so if your sin is adultery, it is no big deal.  God's grace is sufficient.  Yes, you might lose a crown, or you might get an STD or something like that, but your soul is safe. 

 

 

Sunds like you're wanting to discuss the idea of OSAS. There are a few threads on that. Please, let's stick to the OP discussion. Here's a few suggestions or you could start your own...

 

 

 

 

Like it or not, OSAS is part of the point of your article.  It goes hand in hand.  Those who believe that behavior plays a part in remaining saved reject OSAS and those who believe behavior plays no part in remaining saved accept OSAS.  That is as much where the disagreements lie as anything else.  If I am not mistaken, you are part of a church that believes in OSAS?  I am not.  As such, you begin with that difference, and it naturally leads to the conclusion by one person that following laws have nothing to do with our security in Jesus, and the other person disagrees. 

[Guest Butero]

 

What does anyone need with his book?  Why do we need the Bible?  Why not just tell someone that they need to believe in Jesus and leave it at that?  If you do read the Bible, and see how Paul kept his body in subjection so he won't be a castaway, and how certain sins will keep you out of the Kingdom of Heaven, you might actually try to stop doing certain things? 

 

The context pertaining to Paul being a “castaway” has to do with service,  not salvation.  I Corinthians 9:16 begins the context of Paul’s preaching of the Gospel.  In that portion of the chapter Paul uses the athletic event of a race as an illustration of his ministry.  He compares the discpline of his own life to the discipline of an athelete who is competing for a prize or a reward.

 

 

Paul says that just as an runner competes to win a corruptible crown we are striving for one that is incorruptable.   That is not referencing salvation.  Salvation is not a reward for right living.  Salvation is not prize.  Paul is talking about reward for service, not salvation.

 

 

The point Paul is making is that he keeps himself disciplined so that after he has preached to others he is not disqualified for service.  The Greek word means to be disapproved.  There are people who cannot witness to their co-workers or neighbors because they haven’t lived for Jesus and have allowed themselves to listen to, or laugh at dirty jokes, or have used God’s Name in vain and as a result, they are disqualifed.  They can’t share Jesus because they know that coming from them, it would be a reproach.  That is the sense in which Paul is using the word “castaway.”  He is not talking about salvation. 

 

 

 

 

I mean, if you read that adulterers won't inherit the Kingdom of Heaven, if you are a womanizer, you might get scared and stop cheating?  We can't have that.  That would be legalism, and performance based salvation.  You might have a drunk who reads about how drunkards won't inherit the Kingdom of Heaven.  They might get scared and stop drinking? 

 

 

Nope.  Fear is not an impediment to sin.  I know sinners who understand that they are going to hell, but that realization doesn’t serve as any kind of motivation to stop sinning.  The love sin more than they love the truth.  They know the truth and they understand that their eternal future is at stake, but they have rejected the truth because sin is more attractive.

 

 

In Galatians 5, Paul points to walking in the Spirit as the only sure impediment to sin.  You can try hard as you can to modify your behavior, but you will eventually return to your sin.  It is only through the Holy Spirit that we can overcome sin.  Being filled and led by the Spirit is the only means the Christian has of living in victory over temptation and sin.

 

 

Grace is not the absence of holy living.  Grace is the expectation of holiness, as Paul points out in Titus 2:11-14:

 

 

For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.  (Tit 2:11-14)

 

 

Tchividjian said it best when he said, “grace inspires what the Law demands. The Law prescribes good works, but only grace can produce them.”

 

First of all, I realize we don't agree on the meaning of why Paul spoke of being a castaway, so I won't waste time arguing that point.  I don't agree with you that fear of consequences have no effect.  If that were the case, we wouldn't need punishment for crimes.  They would not act as a deterrent.  Just as the fear of prison keeps some people from breaking the law, fear of hell will keep some people from sinning.  Yes, there are those who break the law anyway, but there are others who don't, strictly out of fear. 

 

Lets look at that quote.  "Grace inspires what the law demands.  The law prescribes good works, but only grace can produce them."  The quote says it is demanded of us we do certain things.  The quote says the law prescribes good works.  My point is that it doesn't matter why we follow the law or do good works, as long as we are obedient.  Even if that quote is correct, you still can't get past the fact that certain things are demanded, so what of those who don't do those things?  What of those who fail to meet those demands? 

[Guest Butero]

 

 Qtns2So now, when I say, I love God because God first loved me, my love for God comes from the fact that I am a new creation. Because I love God, and have Christ living in me, and my life is thru Him by faith, I am not who I was before salvation. In the following verse, note the differentiation between a person who is a sinner, and a person who is now a saint. What happened? We were changed, from dead to alive to God, washed, sanctified, justified in the Spirit of God.

 

1 Cor 6:9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, ¹⁰ nor thieves, nor thecovetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God. ¹¹ Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.

 

 

 

A great post Qt!  For me, it makes me think of this verse:

 

For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.  Acts 17:28

 

God initiates, does the work and completes it and all IN Christ our Savior...as Christ said:  I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.  John 15:1

 

That Christ is the TRUE vine, indicates that a person can become attached to and grow in error rather than truth.  There is just so much...it is exhaustive!

 

But what of the professing Christian that does those things?  Lets say you have a guy who prays a prayer at the alter and accepts Jesus, but he remains effeminate.  Everyone keeps pointing to "and such were some of you," indicating things should have changed in the believer's life.  What of the people who experienced no change?  What of the person who initially does change but falls away? 

[Guest Butero]

 

 

I mean, if you read that adulterers won't inherit the Kingdom of Heaven, if you are a womanizer, you might get scared and stop cheating?  We can't have that.  That would be legalism, and performance based salvation.  You might have a drunk who reads about how drunkards won't inherit the Kingdom of Heaven.  They might get scared and stop drinking? 

 

 

Nope.  Fear is not an impediment to sin.  I know sinners who understand that they are going to hell, but that realization doesn’t serve as any kind of motivation to stop sinning.  The love sin more than they love the truth.  They know the truth and they understand that their eternal future is at stake, but they have rejected the truth because sin is more attractive.

 

 

 

 

So you're saying that all sinners have no fear of eternal damnation. I find that hard to believe. Especially since the bible teaches just the opposite. 

 

I don't believe that either Man.  I had someone try to break into my house a couple of years ago, but I had an alarm system in place.  They wanted to rob me, but when the alarm went off, the fear of going to jail caused them to flee.  I don't care why they failed to steal from me, but just that they failed.  Their heart wasn't my concern, but the security of my possessions.  There are many people that don't steal because they know it is wrong and they won't do it for that reason alone, but there are others who would steal if it wasn't for the threat of prison. 

[GoldenEagle]

 

 

You can start at 1 Corinthians 6:9,10.  Paul gives us a list of sins that will keep us from inheriting the Kingdom of Heaven. 

 

Okay I suppose 1 Corinthians 6:9,10 is the reference to "how certain sins will keep you out of the Kingdom of Heaven"

Let's look at the passage in context which has to do with the conduct of Believers... The preceeding verses have to do with taking matters to the world in lawsuits ( verses 1-6). I'd bring attention to verse 11 which I believe clarifies the context for which the Holy Spirit through paul gave us verses 9 and 10.

 

<snip>

 

I believe that verses 9-10 should read in the context of verse 11 which shows that some were living unrighteously but they were washed, sanctified, justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ. Meaning they turned away from these sins. How do you view this passage in context?

 

Right, but are you going to tell me that there are no professing Christians that do these things?  Are you going to tell me it is impossible for Christians to do these things?  What happens if they do?  Will they inherit the Kingdom of God, even though the Bible says they won't?  Where is the assurance in that?  What happens if a Christian becomes a drunkard because while going through hard times, they turn to the bottle?  What if they die in that state?  Were they never really saved?  This doctrine doesn't work.  It might for some, but there are legalists that live right too.  Legalism in itself isn't the issue.  It doesn't really matter what the motivations are.  You are either following the Bible or you are not? 

 

 

I would have serious reservations about saying that it doesn't matter WHY one follows the Bible or not. Perhaps this is the disconnect brother?

The Jews follow the law but the law without Messiah (Jesus) only condemns them.

 

A Christian is saved by God through the atoning sacrifice of Jesus. There is sanctification and justification. The RESULT is the desire to follow God's law.

 

In other words good works ("living right") is a RESULT of salvation not a requirement for salvation.

Christians (under God's grace) are motivated by love while those who don't believe are motivated solely by fear (under God's justice).

The biggest issue I think that we can't agree upon is that it is possible to live perfect lives as Believers this side of heaven. Is this the case?

When we as Christians fall down (into temptation) God is good, gracious, merciful, slow to anger to pick us up (not because of anything we've done but because of what Jesus has done FOR us.)

 

What do you think?

[Guest shiloh357]

 

 

I mean, if you read that adulterers won't inherit the Kingdom of Heaven, if you are a womanizer, you might get scared and stop cheating?  We can't have that.  That would be legalism, and performance based salvation.  You might have a drunk who reads about how drunkards won't inherit the Kingdom of Heaven.  They might get scared and stop drinking? 

 

 

Nope.  Fear is not an impediment to sin.  I know sinners who understand that they are going to hell, but that realization doesn’t serve as any kind of motivation to stop sinning.  The love sin more than they love the truth.  They know the truth and they understand that their eternal future is at stake, but they have rejected the truth because sin is more attractive.

 

 

 

 

So you're saying that all sinners have no fear of eternal damnation. I find that hard to believe. Especially since the bible teaches just the opposite. 

 

I am not saying all sinners have a fear of going to hell.  I am simply saying that I know some sinners who love sin more than they fear God or the spectre of an eternal hell.  Fear is not an impediment to sin on the grounds that many who should fear hell, don't, even though they acknowledge the possibility that they will end up there.

 

There is a hardness of the heart that can happen in people that make them unable to fear, much less repent.

[GoldenEagle]

 

Yes, I will clarify those comments.  What I mean when I say we must behave in a certain way to make it to heaven, is that we must refuse to commit sins the Bible says will keep us out of heaven, like being a drunkard for instance.  The Bible says a drunkard won't inherit the Kingdom of God, so if I want to make it to heaven, I have to refuse to drink wherein is excess.  You can question whether or not a single instance of becoming drunk makes a drunkard, but that is not the point.  I will even concede it may not mean that?  I am saying I can't behave as Otis, the town drunk on Andy Griffith and make it to heaven. 

 

Thanks for the clarification brother.

The Bible also says:

 

Matthew 12:31-32

³¹ Therefore I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven people, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. ³² And whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.

 

Mark 3:28-30

²⁸ “Truly, I say to you, all sins will be forgiven the children of man, and whatever blasphemies they utter, ²⁹ but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin”— ³⁰ for they were saying, “He has an unclean spirit.”

As I understand it the only sin that will not be forgiven is the rejection of the testimony of Holy Spirit that Jesus the Son of God is the way, the truth, and the life - that nobody can come to God except through Jesus.

 

If God were to see fit to save Otis either during his life or at the end of his life how would that affect you and me? We cannot be responsible for others actions good or bad I believe.

2 Corinthians 5:10

For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive what is due for what he has done in the body, whether good or evil.

Jesus said when Peter was so concerned about what would happen to John...

 

John 21:22

Jesus said to him, “If it is my will that he remain until I come, what is that to you? You follow me!”

 

Your thoughts?

God bless,

GE

[Guest shiloh357]

 

 

 

I mean, if you read that adulterers won't inherit the Kingdom of Heaven, if you are a womanizer, you might get scared and stop cheating?  We can't have that.  That would be legalism, and performance based salvation.  You might have a drunk who reads about how drunkards won't inherit the Kingdom of Heaven.  They might get scared and stop drinking? 

 

 

Nope.  Fear is not an impediment to sin.  I know sinners who understand that they are going to hell, but that realization doesn’t serve as any kind of motivation to stop sinning.  The love sin more than they love the truth.  They know the truth and they understand that their eternal future is at stake, but they have rejected the truth because sin is more attractive.

 

 

 

 

So you're saying that all sinners have no fear of eternal damnation. I find that hard to believe. Especially since the bible teaches just the opposite. 

 

I don't believe that either Man.  I had someone try to break into my house a couple of years ago, but I had an alarm system in place.  They wanted to rob me, but when the alarm went off, the fear of going to jail caused them to flee.  I don't care why they failed to steal from me, but just that they failed.  Their heart wasn't my concern, but the security of my possessions.  There are many people that don't steal because they know it is wrong and they won't do it for that reason alone, but there are others who would steal if it wasn't for the threat of prison. 

 

That is not really an adequate analogy. It doesn't really compare, because many don't see going to hell as an immediate consequence.  There are who people don't think they are dying tomorrow.  And because they love sin more than they fear God, and they feel no immediate alarm. 

 

And even if someone is scared into living right, it doesn't mean that they a follower of Jesus.  If the motivation for living right is fear that I have to earn God's favor by right livig in order to go to heaven, my faith is placed in my own ability to obey God and not in the grace offered by God as a result of Jesus' finished work on the cross.

 

The Bible never presents fear of hell as the the motivation for serving God.

[GoldenEagle]

 

By those on the other side, I mean those who attack legalism.  Now, lets look to the definitions of legalism.  Going by my definition that legalism is strict adherence to the laws of God, are you saying you think that kind of legalism is ok?  If you are, perhaps we aren't that far apart? 

 

 

See the "other side" as you claim "attacks" legalism in the form of the definition I presented... I believe you're defending something that perhaps is not at all what Christians and even non-Chrisitans concern is? So I think in essence you might be arguing against something people are indeed not attacking...

My issue with this definition of legalism is that I don't believe anyone can 100% adhere to the laws of God this side of eternity. Everyone is sinful and we all fall short this side of eternity.

I wouldn't use the term legalist in this manner because the common use of the word today is more along the lines of what I presented I believe: A) "excessive adherence to law or formula" and/or B) "dependence on moral law rather than on personal religious faith."

I wouldn't have a problem with the definition you propose as "strict adherence to the laws of God" to be called something to extent of being pious or devoted to God...

 

This would be a major break through in our discussions I believe.

What do you think?

 

God bless,

GE