Can every Believer be rich/blessed/favored/speak-in-tongues/be healed?

[NeedYouLord]

Much love to you In Him...Jesus...My Lord...

 

Has anyone that has a problem with what some do with their money...has anyone cast all that care on The Lord? He is big enough to take care of it...And we get changed in the process...Oh Lord You Are So Good...

 

Also seems to me that we have to be blessed first to become a blessing...

 

So I'm just going to focus on The Word...Which is Alive...Because My Jesus Lives...and I won't give a whole bunch at once...

 

When I was doing this: Looking up these verses and looking up Words in Strong's...And if I made any human errors...I apologize in advance.

 

I looked up the word: riches in Strong's Concordance...and saw that (4149) is given for this word from Romans all the way to the end of Revelation...Wealth, money, possessions, abundance, richness, bestowment...

 

Before I go much further...Riches in material possessions do not save us!!!  And I'm sure that all the Pastors we've talked about know this as well...It is my experience that being rich In Christ brings all things...one of my life verses is: With God All Things Are Possible...

 

Just wanting to point this out too: We are all in different places in our Walk With God...and just because we haven't walked there yet doesn't mean it's wrong...and quite possibly, eventually, if we don't give up, God will bring about some of these things in our life for His reasons...I know His Ways and Thoughts are Higher Than Mine...

 

Col. 2:9-10 For In Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily. And you are complete In Him, who is the head of all principality and power.

 

Col. 2:18 Let no one cheat you of your reward, taking delight in false humility and worship of angels, intruding into those things which he has not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind.

 

2 Cor. 8:9 For you know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that though He was rich, yet for your sakes He became poor, that you through His poverty might become rich.

 

1 Tim. 6:17-Command those who are rich in this present age not to be haughty, nor to trust in uncertain riches but in the living God, who gives us richly all things to enjoy. I truly believe that these Pastor's do not have "The Love" of money for it brings all kinds of foolish and harmful lusts according to 1 Tim. 6:8-10...What if 1 Tim. 6:2 says that we should be serving these "rich" Pastors-if we work for them...oh dear...and if anyone despises his brethren because he is benefited...well...verses 3-5 deals with that...

 

Then Jer. 9:23-24 Let not the wise man glory in his wisdom, Let not the mighty man glory in his might, Nor let the rich man glory in his riches; But let him who glories glory in this, That he understands and knows Me, That I am the Lord, exercising lovingkindness, judgement, and righteousness in the earth. For in these I delight, says the Lord.

[Guest shiloh357]

Has anyone that has a problem with what some do with their money...has anyone cast all that care on The Lord?

But that's just it...  When it comes to evangelists like Benny Hinn and Kenneth Copeland, it's not their money and many who donate to ministry are not simply giving to  a minister so he can drive a Bentley or a Porsche convertible.  They are giving under the impression that their giving is going to help people, not line the pockets of the preacher.

 

Also seems to me that we have to be blessed first to become a blessing...

 

But they aren't a blessing.  They give just enough to charitable projects, to be able claim that they are blessing them.  Their own coffers are far, far more full than are the coffers of the charitable organizations they claim to support.  

Col. 2:9-10 For In Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily. And you are complete In Him, who is the head of all principality and power.

 

Col. 2:18 Let no one cheat you of your reward, taking delight in false humility and worship of angels, intruding into those things which he has not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind.

 

2 Cor. 8:9 For you know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that though He was rich, yet for your sakes He became poor, that you through His poverty might become rich.

 

Big problem with how you are handling these verses.   Paul was not "prosperous" in material goods at all during his ministry, so Paul did not have material riches in mind.   Col 2:9-10 and II Cor. 8:9 have to do with us being whole and "rich" in terms of Jesus' person. Neither passage have material wealth in mind at all.  It has to do with the blessings we have in Christ and the wholeness we have in Christ by virtue of sacrifice on the cross.  It is clearly redemptive blessings and not material blessings that Paul has in mind.

 

Secondly In Col 2:18, Paul is addressing the problem they were having with the gnostic cult.  The reward spoken of is heavenly, not earthly.  We are not promised much in terms of earthly rewards but are promised many times of a heavenly reward and inheritance.

 

1 Tim. 6:17-Command those who are rich in this present age not to be haughty, nor to trust in uncertain riches but in the living God, who gives us richly all things to enjoy. I truly believe that these Pastor's do not have "The Love" of money for it brings all kinds of foolish and harmful lusts according to 1 Tim. 6:8-10...What if 1 Tim. 6:2 says that we should be serving these "rich" Pastors-if we work for them...oh dear...and if anyone despises his brethren because he is benefited...well...verses 3-5 deals with that...

 

 

But godliness with contentment is great gain. For we brought nothing into this world, and it is certain we can carry nothing out. And having food and raiment let us be therewith content. But they that will be rich fall into temptation and a snare, and into many foolish and hurtful lusts, which drown men in destruction and perdition. For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows. But thou, O man of God, flee these things; and follow after righteousness, godliness, faith, love, patience, meekness. Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, whereunto thou art also called, and hast professed a good profession before many witnesses. (1Ti 6:6-12)

 

 

The very thing that causes people to fall into temptation and snares and which causes pangs and piercing of sorrows due to the desire to be rich is the very thing being cultivated and promoted by the prosperity gospel.  Riches are not a blessing; usually they are a curse.

 

I don't see how the passage you cite from Jeremiah is relevant.

[Guest ninhao]

 

The very thing that causes people to fall into temptation and snares and which causes pangs and piercing of sorrows due to the desire to be rich is the very thing being cultivated and promoted by the prosperity gospel.  Riches are not a blessing; usually they are a curse.

 

 

Yes Shiloh and it's also interesting that these teachers usually shy from teaching God's discipline, It's a package presentation of the Gospel which requires nothing different than the lifestyle non believers already want. Riches and no accountability.

[Guest shiloh357]

 

 

The very thing that causes people to fall into temptation and snares and which causes pangs and piercing of sorrows due to the desire to be rich is the very thing being cultivated and promoted by the prosperity gospel.  Riches are not a blessing; usually they are a curse.

 

 

Yes Shiloh and it's also interesting that these teachers usually shy from teaching God's discipline, It's a package presentation of the Gospel which requires nothing different than the lifestyle non believers already want. Riches and no accountability.

 

When I lived in Tulsa the "authority" in most Word of Faith churches I discovered is top - down in their authority structure. The authority of the pastor is absolute and unquestioned.   If you challenge them, you are "touching God's anointed" and that is not permitted.  It is very cultic.

[Sevenseas]

Much love to you,

 

Has anyone participating in this particular thread experienced God literally raising you up from death...with nothing but Him to rely on? No material possessions...And literally born again by The Spirit of God? Changed...Different...So Profound That You Can't Even Recognize Your Own Self...And "worldly-ness" taken away...In the world but not a part of it...And seeing How God Provides for you? Has anyone ever only depended on God? I have...and still am...and always will...and "things" are coming my way that I didn't have to pay for...Name brand-High Dollar Things...Obtained totally legally by the way...Being given to me...Am I supposed to give away my "gifts"? Sometimes I sure do...I will use these wonderful things for a while and then take them to do with as God so desires...Seems to me like God gives a lot to someone that will pass it on...seems to me like that's sowing and reaping...I think a lot of understanding is needed to be able to "see"...My my

 

I have personally experienced supernatural interventions on my behalf as God answered prayer.  Who else do we pray to?  I am not understanding why you would appear to suggest that supernatural

experience supercedes the Bible?  If an 'experience' becomes a persons' walk with God they are in trouble.  We are not led by experiences, but by the Holy Spirit.  When the devil tempted Jesus

in the wilderness, Jesus had nothing but the naked word of God with which to defend Himself and I have relied on that same word on numerous occasions.  Money cannot buy your way out of trouble

and neither can an experience you may have had even if it was only last week.  

 

What do you mean by literally born again?  We are all literally born again.  If someone is raised from the dead, then they are raised from the dead.  We have examples of that in scripture.  Born again, as I was reading even this morning, means being born of the spirit of God rather the natural desire of human parents.  

 

What are you suggesting by asking 'Has anyone ever only depended on God?  Don't you know that each and every single one of us are alive and walk and move and have our being IN Him?  ACTS 17:28

 

Things are coming your way that you did not have to pay for?  I was born into a wealthy family and I know what money can do to people.  Take care.  You cannot take anything with you.  The thing is though, that my family worked for the money...we did not ask for money for a ministry and then bank it and live high off the hog.   My grandfather was a millionaire but he worked for it! He came from Europe just a couple of years prior to WW II and had to leave his wife and three children behind.  He worked for one year just to be able to earn the money to send for them.  He worked himself into illness...ended up with just one kidney and his precious wife, my grandmother, worked long long hours in sewing factories so their children could have a house that was paid for and proper schooling.

 

My Grandparents were Christians and they believed that God blessed their hard work and they prayed for God's hand in their lives and for His direction.  Eventually, through hard work and saving, he bought two stores and God blessed the work of his hands...just like what you read in the Bible...God literally blesses the work of a person's hand and increases their wealth if they honor Him and walk in His ways.

Not every single person...but He certainly did Abraham and Jacob and other patriarchs.  My Grandfather?  Same thing.  The business increased so much, that the entire family lived off of it (except my

dad who was brought up in Canada and had already embarked on another career)

 

My Grandfather built a very large factory, bought and rented large buildings in an Industrial section of Montreal and he had a nice home in Montreal, a condo in Florida and a beautiful place in the mountains where we would all spend the week-ends together, waterskiing, swimming, hiking, fishing, and whatever else was on the menu for good clean fun.

 

That, is a far far cry from living off the backs of people who are waiting for God to come through with some kind of money miracle.

 

So, please don't tell me about the free things you are getting...you are quite welcome to have them and perhaps God is even answering your prayers.  However, having 'had it all' I put value on people,

family most of all, and I do not pray for things.  Do you know what I pray for?  I pray that God would send enough work my way...I'm a freelance photographer...so that I can WORK for my money.

I do not want free things...I want to work...call me odd if you want, but that is my true nature.  That is how I was brought up and that is how I see people in the Bible.  Even Paul made tents and

would not take things for free and I pretty much figure that is a good example.

 

All that money destroyed my family when my grandfather passed away.  They did not respect his will....I left...and found work elsewhere.  I hated what they did.  I hated what they made out of

what love for his family drove my Grandfather to build.  Not one of them is happier than I am....even though they all have way more than I do .... not one of them understands what they did.  However,

they have all paid for their deeds.  I won't list the ways, but I have never prayed against them...I have repeatedly forgiven them because I don't want the ulcer of jealousy and desire for revenge to take

hold in me.

 

Does any of this make me some kind of super Christian?  Not at all.  And I have not written half of what all I have had to endure because of the betrayal of my brother and mother.  I will never pray

for money.  Unless I can't pay the bills and I am stuck and even then, I prefer to work for it...although now and then, I have had some nice sums come my way and I have not refused them.

 

Ask Abraham which he would rather have had...his wealth or his only son when God told him to sacrifice him.  Ask me if I would rather have lots of money or my family back the way it was. 

Or I guess the way I thought it was, cause it was never really what I thought it was.  By the way?  These things are history and yet still fresh as yesterday because those things were

life changing and I had no choice.  Oh wait.  I did have a choice.  I could have lied and stolen and not reported hundreds of thousands in earnings and bought a fancy car and all kinds of

expensive toys too.  I could have betrayed what I know is right for money and sided with the rest of the family.  But I didn't  BECAUSE I fear God and I will not be bought.  My dad would not

be bought either.  Everyone else...and I mean everyone else...went a little nuts over the money because at last, they could have it ALL at one time instead of earning it or having large

gifts bestowed upon them by my Grandfather.

 

Please...show me in scripture where we are to pray for things?  Didn't Jesus state 'your heavenly Father KNOWS you have need of all these things'?  How many toasters does someone need?  How many

homes?  How many sets of fine china?  Does it have to be the best of everything or the latest and greatest?  

 

I cannot fathom for the life of me, how people in North America can possibly accept the name it and claim it false doctrine of WOF when the majority of believers are NOT in the US or

Canada but are scattered throughout the world and do not live lavish lifestyles and do not have a mansion for a home or a program on TV the closing segment of which is nothing but begging

and pleading for money.

 

Do you see the Chinese Christians on their knees begging for their lives?  They are not asking God for money.  Do you see the Pastor in prison?  He is not asking God for things.

 

All I can say is WAKE UP!!!  The 5 foolish virgins are out buying things while the other 5 are trimming their wicks.

 

 

 

I have never posted before about these things because I am basically a private person and I share about the Bible here...not the details of my personal life.  But I really take exception to

the teaching that a person is blessed because they ask for things.

 

You have pretty much ignored my posts with all the documented articles concerning the TRUE nature of WOF.  Why is that?  I have this saying...you can sweep the dirt under the carpet

for a long time, but eventually, that pile of dirt will be big enough to trip over and then you will be hitting the ground face first.  Yeah, I made that up.

 

 

Have you ever thought about how much God talks about how wonderful having "understanding" is...How good it is to have it...I'm seeing how good it is...it's like a treasure...and I'm saying Wow!!!

 

What is understanding to you?  What do you consider to be understanding, say, according to Psalm 119?  And how does that, any of that, line up with WOF doctrine?  Please...consider it.

 

Has anyone literally, Walked In The Spirit and then slowing but surely learn from God how to recognize others that also Walk In The Spirit and not their flesh...Some of us are really showing the abundance of the heart...and it's coming out the fingers...Hahaha...instead of the mouths...

 

All those who are in Christ Jesus walk in the Light as He is in the Light.  Do you see that as some sort of experience?  because, literally, it should be day by day.

What do you mean by 'some of us are showing the abundance of the heart?  I have an idea, but I would appreciate you explaining it please.  Let's walk in the light and not couch

things in expressions that are double sided.  Let's be honest here.

 

 

Before we go much further on persecuting to the utmost Pastors that have been at it for many decades...Again...We're having our preconceived notions about How someone else should steward what God has given them...The Pastors we are talking about as far as I've learned...have boards to answer to...they draw a salary-and it might be a nice one...

 

People in the US and Canada have absolutely no idea what persecution is.  The WOF doctrine is not biblical. They do not present a biblical Jesus and they do not present the only begotten Son of  God.

 

I will tell you who the WOF preachers actually DO persecute though.  They persecute people who oppose their false teachings.  They rail and curse against them.  I have heard and seen it for myself but I can point you to

many documented videos that will give truth to my words if you are interested.

 

 

 

I will add, that I post what I did about my family with difficulty.  There is no bragging nor is there any fallacy nor is there any desire for anyone to pat me on the back and say 'there there' .

 

I also do not talk or write about all the ways God has revealed Himself to me and shown me how very real He is and that He is the Great "I AM' 

 

Don't talk to me about praying for things or how I should demand ANYTHING of God.

 

Consider these words from Jeremiah:

 

I am the man who has seen affliction

by the rod of the Lord’s wrath.

2He has driven me away and made me walk

in darkness rather than light;

3indeed, he has turned his hand against me

again and again, all day long.

 

Ah yes...God's blessings.  One of the greatest prophets who ever lived and yet this is what he writes.  The WOF teachers should read this over and over and over until they hang

their heads in shame.

 

 am the man who has seen affliction

by the rod of the Lord’s wrath.

2He has driven me away and made me walk

in darkness rather than light;

3indeed, he has turned his hand against me

again and again, all day long.

4He has made my skin and my flesh grow old

and has broken my bones.

5He has besieged me and surrounded me

with bitterness and hardship.

6He has made me dwell in darkness

like those long dead.

7He has walled me in so I cannot escape;

he has weighed me down with chains.

8Even when I call out or cry for help,

he shuts out my prayer.

9He has barred my way with blocks of stone;

he has made my paths crooked.

10Like a bear lying in wait,

like a lion in hiding,

11he dragged me from the path and mangled me

and left me without help.

12He drew his bow

and made me the target for his arrows.

13He pierced my heart

with arrows from his quiver.

14I became the laughingstock of all my people;

they mock me in song all day long.

15He has filled me with bitter herbs

and given me gall to drink.

16He has broken my teeth with gravel;

he has trampled me in the dust.

17I have been deprived of peace;

I have forgotten what prosperity is.

18So I say, “My splendor is gone

and all that I had hoped from the Lord.”

19I remember my affliction and my wandering,

the bitterness and the gall.

20I well remember them,

and my soul is downcast within me.

21Yet this I call to mind

and therefore I have hope:

22Because of the Lord’s great love we are not consumed,

for his compassions never fail.

23They are new every morning;

great is your faithfulness.

24I say to myself, “The Lord is my portion;

therefore I will wait for him.”

25The Lord is good to those whose hope is in him,

to the one who seeks him;

26it is good to wait quietly

for the salvation of the Lord.

27It is good for a man to bear the yoke

while he is young.

28Let him sit alone in silence,

for the Lord has laid it on him.

29Let him bury his face in the dust—

there may yet be hope.

30Let him offer his cheek to one who would strike him,

and let him be filled with disgrace.

31For no one is cast off

by the Lord forever.

32Though he brings grief, he will show compassion,

so great is his unfailing love.

33For he does not willingly bring affliction

or grief to anyone.

34To crush underfoot

all prisoners in the land,

35to deny people their rights

before the Most High,

36to deprive them of justice—

would not the Lord see such things?

37Who can speak and have it happen

if the Lord has not decreed it?

38Is it not from the mouth of the Most High

that both calamities and good things come?

39Why should the living complain

when punished for their sins?

40Let us examine our ways and test them,

and let us return to the Lord.

41Let us lift up our hearts and our hands

to God in heaven, and say:

42“We have sinned and rebelled

and you have not forgiven.

43“You have covered yourself with anger and pursued us;

you have slain without pity.

44You have covered yourself with a cloud

so that no prayer can get through.

45You have made us scum and refuse

among the nations.

46“All our enemies have opened their mouths

wide against us.

47We have suffered terror and pitfalls,

ruin and destruction.”

48Streams of tears flow from my eyes

because my people are destroyed.

49My eyes will flow unceasingly,

without relief,

50until the Lord looks down

from heaven and sees.

51What I see brings grief to my soul

because of all the women of my city.

52Those who were my enemies without cause

hunted me like a bird.

53They tried to end my life in a pit

and threw stones at me;

54the waters closed over my head,

and I thought I was about to perish.

55I called on your name, Lord,

from the depths of the pit.

56You heard my plea: “Do not close your ears

to my cry for relief.”

57You came near when I called you,

and you said, “Do not fear.”

58You, Lord, took up my case;

you redeemed my life.

59Lord, you have seen the wrong done to me.

Uphold my cause!

60You have seen the depth of their vengeance,

all their plots against me.

61Lord, you have heard their insults,

all their plots against me—

62what my enemies whisper and mutter

against me all day long.

63Look at them! Sitting or standing,

they mock me in their songs.

64Pay them back what they deserve, Lord,

for what their hands have done.

65Put a veil over their hearts,

and may your curse be on them!

66Pursue them in anger and destroy them

from under the heavens of the Lord.

 

Listen:  God's word does not return to Him void...He fulfills it and He refills and fullfills it because there is nothing new under the sun.  All the rivers run into the sea and yet the sea is not full

 

How much longer until the cup of God's wrath is full?  When God gave Abraham a vision of how he would bless him and increase his descendants, the vision was for the future and God told

Abraham there would be much suffering as his descendants were made slaves.

 

I tell you, those who brag about their riches and command God to give them all these things may very well have their earthen treasure, but it will corrupt and rot.

 

I do not take all the warnings in scripture as though they were for another.  Hold God in reverence and get understanding indeed...but et understanding according to His word and not

the word of those who lie to gain wealth from people who have itching ears and little regard for truth.

 

Do you know what God says about those who accept lies and do not hold to the truth?  

 

 “They have chosen their own ways, and their souls delight in their abominations; so I [God] also will choose harsh treatment for them and bring upon them what they dread. For when I called, no one answered, when I spoke, no one listened. They did evil in My sight and chose what displeases Me” (Isaiah 66:3-4).

 

To say and do things in the Name of God that God has not said nor told someone to do is wicked.  

 

It as almost as though we are living in OT times...the prophets say that  God will bless and give you whatever you want.  The prophets say God is not displeased...just demand whatever

you will and He will give it to you because He has to!   Nothing has changed.

 

Has the road to heaven suddenly become very wide and paved with gold?  The name it and claim it crowd would have us believe that it has.

 

[Sevenseas]

Oh I'm sorry....I meant to mention this also.

 

 

Has anyone that has a problem with what some do with their money...has anyone cast all that care on The Lord? He is big enough to take care of it...And we get changed in the process...Oh Lord You Are So Good...

 

 

 

I have read now, several times, where you write that you believe that those who disagree with the false doctrine of WOF are mostly worried about the money.

 

Let me clarify my stand on that.

 

Much like a tightness in the lungs and a shortness of breath can indicate cancer of the lungs, so the money is simply an indication of something far worse.

 

The problem is the false doctrine.  The extravagant lifestyle on the backs of regular Joes is simply a symptom of the greater problem.  

[Guest shiloh357]

 

Much love to you,

 

Has anyone participating in this particular thread experienced God literally raising you up from death...with nothing but Him to rely on? No material possessions...And literally born again by The Spirit of God? Changed...Different...So Profound That You Can't Even Recognize Your Own Self...And "worldly-ness" taken away...In the world but not a part of it...And seeing How God Provides for you? Has anyone ever only depended on God? I have...and still am...and always will...and "things" are coming my way that I didn't have to pay for...Name brand-High Dollar Things...Obtained totally legally by the way...Being given to me...Am I supposed to give away my "gifts"? Sometimes I sure do...I will use these wonderful things for a while and then take them to do with as God so desires...Seems to me like God gives a lot to someone that will pass it on...seems to me like that's sowing and reaping...I think a lot of understanding is needed to be able to "see"...My my

 

I have personally experienced supernatural interventions on my behalf as God answered prayer.  Who else do we pray to?  I am not understanding why you would appear to suggest that supernatural

experience supercedes the Bible?  If an 'experience' becomes a persons' walk with God they are in trouble.  We are not led by experiences, but by the Holy Spirit.  When the devil tempted Jesus

in the wilderness, Jesus had nothing but the naked word of God with which to defend Himself and I have relied on that same word on numerous occasions.  Money cannot buy your way out of trouble

and neither can an experience you may have had even if it was only last week.  

 

What do you mean by literally born again?  We are all literally born again.  If someone is raised from the dead, then they are raised from the dead.  We have examples of that in scripture.  Born again, as I was reading even this morning, means being born of the spirit of God rather the natural desire of human parents.  

 

What are you suggesting by asking 'Has anyone ever only depended on God?  Don't you know that each and every single one of us are alive and walk and move and have our being IN Him?  ACTS 17:28

 

Things are coming your way that you did not have to pay for?  I was born into a wealthy family and I know what money can do to people.  Take care.  You cannot take anything with you.  The thing is though, that my family worked for the money...we did not ask for money for a ministry and then bank it and live high off the hog.   My grandfather was a millionaire but he worked for it! He came from Europe just a couple of years prior to WW II and had to leave his wife and three children behind.  He worked for one year just to be able to earn the money to send for them.  He worked himself into illness...ended up with just one kidney and his precious wife, my grandmother, worked long long hours in sewing factories so their children could have a house that was paid for and proper schooling.

 

My Grandparents were Christians and they believed that God blessed their hard work and they prayed for God's hand in their lives and for His direction.  Eventually, through hard work and saving, he bought two stores and God blessed the work of his hands...just like what you read in the Bible...God literally blesses the work of a person's hand and increases their wealth if they honor Him and walk in His ways.

Not every single person...but He certainly did Abraham and Jacob and other patriarchs.  My Grandfather?  Same thing.  The business increased so much, that the entire family lived off of it (except my

dad who was brought up in Canada and had already embarked on another career)

 

My Grandfather built a very large factory, bought and rented large buildings in an Industrial section of Montreal and he had a nice home in Montreal, a condo in Florida and a beautiful place in the mountains where we would all spend the week-ends together, waterskiing, swimming, hiking, fishing, and whatever else was on the menu for good clean fun.

 

That, is a far far cry from living off the backs of people who are waiting for God to come through with some kind of money miracle.

 

So, please don't tell me about the free things you are getting...you are quite welcome to have them and perhaps God is even answering your prayers.  However, having 'had it all' I put value on people,

family most of all, and I do not pray for things.  Do you know what I pray for?  I pray that God would send enough work my way...I'm a freelance photographer...so that I can WORK for my money.

I do not want free things...I want to work...call me odd if you want, but that is my true nature.  That is how I was brought up and that is how I see people in the Bible.  Even Paul made tents and

would not take things for free and I pretty much figure that is a good example.

 

All that money destroyed my family when my grandfather passed away.  They did not respect his will....I left...and found work elsewhere.  I hated what they did.  I hated what they made out of

what love for his family drove my Grandfather to build.  Not one of them is happier than I am....even though they all have way more than I do .... not one of them understands what they did.  However,

they have all paid for their deeds.  I won't list the ways, but I have never prayed against them...I have repeatedly forgiven them because I don't want the ulcer of jealousy and desire for revenge to take

hold in me.

 

Does any of this make me some kind of super Christian?  Not at all.  And I have not written half of what all I have had to endure because of the betrayal of my brother and mother.  I will never pray

for money.  Unless I can't pay the bills and I am stuck and even then, I prefer to work for it...although now and then, I have had some nice sums come my way and I have not refused them.

 

Ask Abraham which he would rather have had...his wealth or his only son when God told him to sacrifice him.  Ask me if I would rather have lots of money or my family back the way it was. 

Or I guess the way I thought it was, cause it was never really what I thought it was.  By the way?  These things are history and yet still fresh as yesterday because those things were

life changing and I had no choice.  Oh wait.  I did have a choice.  I could have lied and stolen and not reported hundreds of thousands in earnings and bought a fancy car and all kinds of

expensive toys too.  I could have betrayed what I know is right for money and sided with the rest of the family.  But I didn't  BECAUSE I fear God and I will not be bought.  My dad would not

be bought either.  Everyone else...and I mean everyone else...went a little nuts over the money because at last, they could have it ALL at one time instead of earning it or having large

gifts bestowed upon them by my Grandfather.

 

Please...show me in scripture where we are to pray for things?  Didn't Jesus state 'your heavenly Father KNOWS you have need of all these things'?  How many toasters does someone need?  How many

homes?  How many sets of fine china?  Does it have to be the best of everything or the latest and greatest?  

 

I cannot fathom for the life of me, how people in North America can possibly accept the name it and claim it false doctrine of WOF when the majority of believers are NOT in the US or

Canada but are scattered throughout the world and do not live lavish lifestyles and do not have a mansion for a home or a program on TV the closing segment of which is nothing but begging

and pleading for money.

 

Do you see the Chinese Christians on their knees begging for their lives?  They are not asking God for money.  Do you see the Pastor in prison?  He is not asking God for things.

 

All I can say is WAKE UP!!!  The 5 foolish virgins are out buying things while the other 5 are trimming their wicks.

 

 

 

I have never posted before about these things because I am basically a private person and I share about the Bible here...not the details of my personal life.  But I really take exception to

the teaching that a person is blessed because they ask for things.

 

You have pretty much ignored my posts with all the documented articles concerning the TRUE nature of WOF.  Why is that?  I have this saying...you can sweep the dirt under the carpet

for a long time, but eventually, that pile of dirt will be big enough to trip over and then you will be hitting the ground face first.  Yeah, I made that up.

 

 

Have you ever thought about how much God talks about how wonderful having "understanding" is...How good it is to have it...I'm seeing how good it is...it's like a treasure...and I'm saying Wow!!!

 

What is understanding to you?  What do you consider to be understanding, say, according to Psalm 119?  And how does that, any of that, line up with WOF doctrine?  Please...consider it.

 

Has anyone literally, Walked In The Spirit and then slowing but surely learn from God how to recognize others that also Walk In The Spirit and not their flesh...Some of us are really showing the abundance of the heart...and it's coming out the fingers...Hahaha...instead of the mouths...

 

All those who are in Christ Jesus walk in the Light as He is in the Light.  Do you see that as some sort of experience?  because, literally, it should be day by day.

What do you mean by 'some of us are showing the abundance of the heart?  I have an idea, but I would appreciate you explaining it please.  Let's walk in the light and not couch

things in expressions that are double sided.  Let's be honest here.

 

 

Before we go much further on persecuting to the utmost Pastors that have been at it for many decades...Again...We're having our preconceived notions about How someone else should steward what God has given them...The Pastors we are talking about as far as I've learned...have boards to answer to...they draw a salary-and it might be a nice one...

 

People in the US and Canada have absolutely no idea what persecution is.  The WOF doctrine is not biblical. They do not present a biblical Jesus and they do not present the only begotten Son of  God.

 

I will tell you who the WOF preachers actually DO persecute though.  They persecute people who oppose their false teachings.  They rail and curse against them.  I have heard and seen it for myself but I can point you to

many documented videos that will give truth to my words if you are interested.

 

 

 

I will add, that I post what I did about my family with difficulty.  There is no bragging nor is there any fallacy nor is there any desire for anyone to pat me on the back and say 'there there' .

 

I also do not talk or write about all the ways God has revealed Himself to me and shown me how very real He is and that He is the Great "I AM' 

 

Don't talk to me about praying for things or how I should demand ANYTHING of God.

 

Consider these words from Jeremiah:

 

I am the man who has seen affliction

by the rod of the Lord’s wrath.

2He has driven me away and made me walk

in darkness rather than light;

3indeed, he has turned his hand against me

again and again, all day long.

 

Ah yes...God's blessings.  One of the greatest prophets who ever lived and yet this is what he writes.  The WOF teachers should read this over and over and over until they hang

their heads in shame.

 

 am the man who has seen affliction

by the rod of the Lord’s wrath.

2He has driven me away and made me walk

in darkness rather than light;

3indeed, he has turned his hand against me

again and again, all day long.

4He has made my skin and my flesh grow old

and has broken my bones.

5He has besieged me and surrounded me

with bitterness and hardship.

6He has made me dwell in darkness

like those long dead.

7He has walled me in so I cannot escape;

he has weighed me down with chains.

8Even when I call out or cry for help,

he shuts out my prayer.

9He has barred my way with blocks of stone;

he has made my paths crooked.

10Like a bear lying in wait,

like a lion in hiding,

11he dragged me from the path and mangled me

and left me without help.

12He drew his bow

and made me the target for his arrows.

13He pierced my heart

with arrows from his quiver.

14I became the laughingstock of all my people;

they mock me in song all day long.

15He has filled me with bitter herbs

and given me gall to drink.

16He has broken my teeth with gravel;

he has trampled me in the dust.

17I have been deprived of peace;

I have forgotten what prosperity is.

18So I say, “My splendor is gone

and all that I had hoped from the Lord.”

19I remember my affliction and my wandering,

the bitterness and the gall.

20I well remember them,

and my soul is downcast within me.

21Yet this I call to mind

and therefore I have hope:

22Because of the Lord’s great love we are not consumed,

for his compassions never fail.

23They are new every morning;

great is your faithfulness.

24I say to myself, “The Lord is my portion;

therefore I will wait for him.”

25The Lord is good to those whose hope is in him,

to the one who seeks him;

26it is good to wait quietly

for the salvation of the Lord.

27It is good for a man to bear the yoke

while he is young.

28Let him sit alone in silence,

for the Lord has laid it on him.

29Let him bury his face in the dust—

there may yet be hope.

30Let him offer his cheek to one who would strike him,

and let him be filled with disgrace.

31For no one is cast off

by the Lord forever.

32Though he brings grief, he will show compassion,

so great is his unfailing love.

33For he does not willingly bring affliction

or grief to anyone.

34To crush underfoot

all prisoners in the land,

35to deny people their rights

before the Most High,

36to deprive them of justice—

would not the Lord see such things?

37Who can speak and have it happen

if the Lord has not decreed it?

38Is it not from the mouth of the Most High

that both calamities and good things come?

39Why should the living complain

when punished for their sins?

40Let us examine our ways and test them,

and let us return to the Lord.

41Let us lift up our hearts and our hands

to God in heaven, and say:

42“We have sinned and rebelled

and you have not forgiven.

43“You have covered yourself with anger and pursued us;

you have slain without pity.

44You have covered yourself with a cloud

so that no prayer can get through.

45You have made us scum and refuse

among the nations.

46“All our enemies have opened their mouths

wide against us.

47We have suffered terror and pitfalls,

ruin and destruction.”

48Streams of tears flow from my eyes

because my people are destroyed.

49My eyes will flow unceasingly,

without relief,

50until the Lord looks down

from heaven and sees.

51What I see brings grief to my soul

because of all the women of my city.

52Those who were my enemies without cause

hunted me like a bird.

53They tried to end my life in a pit

and threw stones at me;

54the waters closed over my head,

and I thought I was about to perish.

55I called on your name, Lord,

from the depths of the pit.

56You heard my plea: “Do not close your ears

to my cry for relief.”

57You came near when I called you,

and you said, “Do not fear.”

58You, Lord, took up my case;

you redeemed my life.

59Lord, you have seen the wrong done to me.

Uphold my cause!

60You have seen the depth of their vengeance,

all their plots against me.

61Lord, you have heard their insults,

all their plots against me—

62what my enemies whisper and mutter

against me all day long.

63Look at them! Sitting or standing,

they mock me in their songs.

64Pay them back what they deserve, Lord,

for what their hands have done.

65Put a veil over their hearts,

and may your curse be on them!

66Pursue them in anger and destroy them

from under the heavens of the Lord.

 

Listen:  God's word does not return to Him void...He fulfills it and He refills and fullfills it because there is nothing new under the sun.  All the rivers run into the sea and yet the sea is not full

 

How much longer until the cup of God's wrath is full?  When God gave Abraham a vision of how he would bless him and increase his descendants, the vision was for the future and God told

Abraham there would be much suffering as his descendants were made slaves.

 

I tell you, those who brag about their riches and command God to give them all these things may very well have their earthen treasure, but it will corrupt and rot.

 

I do not take all the warnings in scripture as though they were for another.  Hold God in reverence and get understanding indeed...but et understanding according to His word and not

the word of those who lie to gain wealth from people who have itching ears and little regard for truth.

 

Do you know what God says about those who accept lies and do not hold to the truth?  

 

 “They have chosen their own ways, and their souls delight in their abominations; so I [God] also will choose harsh treatment for them and bring upon them what they dread. For when I called, no one answered, when I spoke, no one listened. They did evil in My sight and chose what displeases Me” (Isaiah 66:3-4).

 

To say and do things in the Name of God that God has not said nor told someone to do is wicked.  

 

It as almost as though we are living in OT times...the prophets say that  God will bless and give you whatever you want.  The prophets say God is not displeased...just demand whatever

you will and He will give it to you because He has to!   Nothing has changed.

 

Has the road to heaven suddenly become very wide and paved with gold?  The name it and claim it crowd would have us believe that it has.

 

 

Very well said and thanks for your testimony. 

[donfish06]

GE the point was missed on whether or not every Believer can be rich/blessed/favored/tongue-talking/victory-walking/healing...

 

You say not every Believer is guaranteed any of these things, that God is the One who chooses whether or not a Believer can be/have any of these things. Well, that just isn't the case:

 

Jesus said in Mark 16:17-18 that ALL Believers would speak in tongues. There is no way out of that - it cannot be explained away - so either Jesus is lying or what you said about tongues is not true. Jesus said ALL Believers, tongues.

 

As for riches for every Believer: the word blessing means empowered to prosper; part of prosperity IS riches (money), there is no getting around that. Gal 3:13-14 says we used to be cursed, now we're blessed with the blessing of Abraham (why does God say Abraham unless we're supposed to be expected to be blessed just like Abraham? And Abraham was the wealthiest guy in the world - gold and silver and possessions and servants and herds, etc). So again, there is no way around this.

 

Performing healing being for ALL Believers is found in Mark 16:17-18 again, there is no way around that either. As well, Jesus said ANYONE who believes in Him would do ALL the same things He has done and greater - so again, there is no way to understand that other than ALL Believers can do it!

1) Using your logic, Jesus also says that ALL believers will cast out devils, take up serpents, drink poisonous things and be fine...

Have you casted out any devils? 

Have you taken up serpents and not died?

Have you drank poison and lived?

 

If you can't say yes to ALL of these, according to your logic, then YOU are not a believer.

 

2) It says they would speak with NEW tongues. NOWHERE in the scripture do we see anyone speak in "unknown" tongues besides at the tower of babel. So if you speak in unknown tongues, and there hasn't been interpretations, then you haven't had the Acts 2:4 experience. 

[Montana Marv]

I just wonder how rich the saints were who were hanging on crosses burning as torches by Nero.  Their reward is in Heaven, not here on earth.  Wealth has nothing on obedience.  One can be obedient and poor, not all blessings are monetary. Sometimes wealth can be a curse.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

[TheCurseOfTheRodain]

 

Yet that is not what you find, you hear thousands upon thousands of testimonies of people who have followed what they are being taught from the Bible and they DO reap. I and my wife are NOT in ministry and are not selling millions of CDs and such, and yet we are prospering as we have been learning to sow and reap according what the Holy Spirit has led us to do. Gal 6:6-7 Do not be deceived, God is NOT mocked, for whatsoever a man sows, THAT shall HE reap.

 

 

Rodain can you tell us where your money rewards from  "sowing" have come from ? 

 

 

 

Yes, so long as this is not for some mockery or desecration: the Lord has led me into my harvests and they have come in the form of selling things, or reselling things, new clients, new ideas that have resulted in monetary benefit, debt forgiveness, people just spontaneously (as the harvest at the direction of the Lord of course) GIVING me money (yes it is not just preachers who have had this happen) or things which are worth a particular amount of money. There may be more ways I have not thought of at this moment, but I hope that helps.

 

The system of sowing and reaping both physically and spiritually will not cease until the Earth remaineth not (somewhere around Genesis 8).