Can every Believer be rich/blessed/favored/speak-in-tongues/be healed?

[TheCurseOfTheRodain]

I just wonder how rich the saints were who were hanging on crosses burning as torches by Nero.  Their reward is in Heaven, not here on earth.  Wealth has nothing on obedience.  One can be obedient and poor, not all blessings are monetary. Sometimes wealth can be a curse.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

 

What does riches have to do with what you're saying? When a reward is said to be in Heaven, God does not say it is not accessible while here on the Earth. Otherwise how did Jesus pray "Father, YOUR will be done HERE ON THE EARTH, JUST as it is IN HEAVEN." He is calling for Heaven to be made manifest here on the Earth. Deuteronomy 7 speaks of the days of Heaven upon the Earth for you, and that was in the OC, and since the NC is defined as being thoroughly better than the 1st, you could not decrease in benefits and have it be called better. Therefore, those days of Heaven (and David speaks of them too) on the Earth are you today.

If you have treasure in Heaven, and if it is as you say, inaccessible until you get there, WHAT NEED WILL YOU HAVE FOR THIS TREASURE IN HEAVEN? You won't have a need because there won't be an economic system in Heaven. The treasure in Heaven you store up (which is the harvest on your seed sown) is most certainly not only viable only here on the Earth but is accessible to you here on the Earth. Before you shout me down, investigate all that the Word has to say on the matter (not hearing man's opinions or emotions or past experiences of others or yourself).

Paul said that the MOST NOBLE of all those he preached to were the Bereans, because they didn't receive his reputation but rather they diligently checked up on what he said by looking into the Scriptures to see if what he preached was true according to the Word of God.

[TheCurseOfTheRodain]

 

God is NOT mocked, for whatsoever a man sows, THAT shall HE reap.

 

 

Wow.  That verse has nothing to do with money.  

 

Here is the verse IN context

 

Brothers and sisters, if someone is caught in a sin, you who live by the Spirit should restore that person gently. But watch yourselves, or you also may be tempted. 2Carry each other’s burdens, and in this way you will fulfill the law of Christ. 3If anyone thinks they are something when they are not, they deceive themselves. 4Each one should test their own actions. Then they can take pride in themselves alone, without comparing themselves to someone else, 5for each one should carry their own load.6Nevertheless, the one who receives instruction in the word should share all good things with their instructor.

7Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. 8Whoever sows to please their flesh, from the flesh will reap destruction; whoever sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life. 

 

If I understand the passage, it appears that the verse is in complete disagreement with what you and other WOF'ers postulate.

 

This verse is stating that if we sow for our flesh...which is what wof'ers are doing essentially when they demand that God gives them things...that we are reaping destruction.

 

I hope others who read this and have not decided whether or not WOF is valid or wrong, can SEE what the Bible actually is saying to us and how very much WOF doctrine has taken something

that speaks of spiritual sowing and twisted and used it for their own desires.

 

This erroneous teaching is absolutely distasteful IMO.

 

7seas if it excluded money, Paul (at the direction of the Holy Spirit) would have used other wording, like, "You reap what you sow, unless it's money..." but he didn't, he said WHATSOEVER a man sows, THAT shall he reap. That includes ANYTHING.

 

Also, you should know that in the original Greek, the word Spirit in that 8th verse is not capitalized, that was put in later; it's in reference actually to your own spirit, talking about the spiritual things.

Obviously if you exercise, you are sowing to the flesh, are you then reaping DESTRUCTION? You sowed to the flesh after all....of course not, you reap something good, because you sowed something that was a good seed. If you sow sex with your spouse and a child arises, did you reap DESTRUCTION? No, but you did sow to the flesh, and that was not destruction. Unless of course, the flesh is a reference to the attitude of the flesh which has more to do with following the lusts of the flesh that Jesus said would choke out the seed and then no crop would be produced... your thoughts?

[TheCurseOfTheRodain]

 

Besides all the polluted and twisted teaching of WOF, Copeland has further demonstrated his total lack of a true anointing from God by FALSE PROPHECIES.

 

Be aware, that those who prophesy falsely, are NOT anointed by God.  They have utterly failed the ultimate test of a true prophet.  Further, the gift of prophecy,

most of the time, as instructed from the NT, is about telling FORTH the word we already have and NOT furture events.

 

2004 has come and gone....read the prophecy from Copeland below and ask yourself why he gets away with false prophecies and false claims.

 

 

 

Copeland has been known to shock his listeners with his supposed prophecies from God, such as:  “Dont be disturbed when people accuse you of thinking you are God...They crucified me for saying that I was God. But I didn't claim I was God; I just claimed I walked with Him and that He was in me” (prophecy from Take Time to Pray  article Believer's Voice of Victory,1987, p.9 ) 

In the above prophecy, Kenneth Copeland accomplished at least two things: 1) he denied the deity of Jesus Christ and 2) he promoted doctrines of demons (1 Timothy 4:1). 

Kenneth Copeland was a guest on Benny Hinn’s January 28, 2004 broadcast This is Your Day telecast. Hinn says the lord has a word for you today. Copeland thanks Hinn for continuing in the healing ministry.  Benny Hinn asked Kenneth Copeland what he sees happening in 2004. In turn, Copeland responds by reading his prophecy, to which Hinn says, “Amen“: “Right now the healing ministry of Jesus is coming into a place that no human beings has seen before. And it, we’ all going to be glad we stayed where he put us because this is our time” (Benny Hinn- Amen). (This is a Prophecy delivered by Kenneth Copeland at Eagle Mountain International Church December 31, 2000) Complete prophecy at http://kcm.org/studycenter/prophecies/2004_yearoffullness.php

Copeland continues: “The lord began talking to me about fullness of ministry and fullness of his callings and so forth oh 25 years go, but then in late November and all the way up to new years eve, and I had a visitation of the Lord new years eve afternoon, he began to talk to me about this year, and if you, you permit me I’ll read you what he said to me, Hinn responds please:

“ the year of 2004 will be known as the year of fullness. By the close of 2004, all callings will come to fullness. Apostles ministry, prophets ministry, evangelist ministry, pastoral ministries and teaching ministries that will obey me will come into full manifestation. The gifts of the spirit will be manifested in fulness as they were when Jesus was on the earth.” (Copeland says, “We’ve not seen that, we've seen little pieces of it but not like this”)...“Families will come into their called places and know the fullness of joy on earth as it is in heaven.” 

If this is true, who needs heaven? Jesus said the very opposite for the last days, and spoke of perilous times, apostasy, the love of many growing cold, and itching ears that do not want to hear the truth but what they want to hear. The only time we will see this fullness is in the Millennium, but first comes the Great tribulation.

 

 

Note:  WHAT COPELAND PROPHESIED HAS NOT HAPPENED AND IT WILL NOT HAPPEN.   The Bible teaches the opposite.  As we near the end of times, there will be more and more

persecution.  The love of many will grow cold....people will turn against those they once worshipped with.

 

IMO, WOF is about worshipping the golden calf....NOT God Almighty.

 

You're wrong here on many counts - you should reread carefully what you've posted (you also didn't give a source other than you).

 

In the WORLD these things will happen, but where do YOU live? Because if you're going by the Bible, you're living in the KINGDOM OF GOD having BEEN TRANSLATED OUT OF THE KINGDOM OF DARKNESS. It will get worse for them, but not for the Believers, at least not the ones who insist on living in the Kingdom of God that we're already IN.

[TheCurseOfTheRodain]

 

 

Yet that is not what you find, you hear thousands upon thousands of testimonies of people who have followed what they are being taught from the Bible and they DO reap. I and my wife are NOT in ministry and are not selling millions of CDs and such, and yet we are prospering as we have been learning to sow and reap according what the Holy Spirit has led us to do. Gal 6:6-7 Do not be deceived, God is NOT mocked, for whatsoever a man sows, THAT shall HE reap.

 

You have to follow this out logically. If people were NOT getting harvests from seeds (by the way the Biblical example is that YOU do the sowing and YOU do the reaping, but the increase comes from the Lord (that's the only thing that's automatic in Jesus' example, so people missing their harvests is not on anyone but sower, just like in the natural; a farmer doesn't blame God if his harvest sits out there in the field and he doesn't reap it (the harvest doesn't jump into his barns); you ask the Holy Spirit to lead you into your harvest and show you how to reap it, and you are to know what you've sown and what you've believed for on the harvest so that you know when you've gotten it all) THEN these ministries would die out quickly as shams.

 

 

 

But Kenneth Copeland says that even sinners can work the whole sowing and reaping principles and prosper.  In fact, I have listened to him make that case with my own ears.  He says that sinners prosper in this world because sowing and reaping is a law or principle that God engineered into the world when He created it. 

 

If a sinner can prosper, according to Copeland, by following these same biblical priinciples in their lives, then why do they need Jesus?  Why wouldn't sowing and reaping work for them in every area of their lives if it is a princicple that God has hardwired into creation?   According to Copeland, it will work for whoever does it.   So I don't really need a covenant from God to prosper if I adhere to the law of sowing and reaping.

 

That again, highlights why what you are claiming is really nothing more than a false gospel.   If I can sow and will reap an amazing harvest by virtue of my efforts, I don't need a covenant from God.   The prosperity gospel eliminates the need for God by making me a god in my own life.

 

Your prosperity is the result of a law that even sinners can use, according to Copeland.  You are not following God, you are producing your own proserity by following a natural law that an atheist or satan worshipper can access and not need Jesus to do so.   So how is sowing and reaping an argument for a "prosperity gospel?"

 

 

We're both saying the same thing: I said follow, you said imitate. Paul says to do what he's doing, either way. The point of my message stands, because you are following the example of those, who through faith AND patience inherit the promiseS (plural) as spoken in Hebrews.

 

 

 

Okay, but Paul didn't live in the kind of prosperity that you teach/claim.  Look at what Paul suffered for the Gospel:

 

Are they Hebrews? so am I. Are they Israelites? so am I. Are they the seed of Abraham? so am I. Are they ministers of Christ? (I speak as a fool) I am more; in labours more abundant, in stripes above measure, in prisons more frequent, in deaths oft. Of the Jews five times received I forty stripes save one. Thrice was I beaten with rods, once was I stoned, thrice I suffered shipwreck, a night and a day I have been in the deep; In journeyings often, in perils of waters, in perils of robbers, in perils by mine own countrymen, in perils by the heathen, in perils in the city, in perils in the wilderness, in perils in the sea, in perils among false brethren; In weariness and painfulness, in watchings often, in hunger and thirst, in fastings often, in cold and nakedness. Beside those things that are without, that which cometh upon me daily, the care of all the churches. Who is weak, and I am not weak? who is offended, and I burn not? If I must needs glory, I will glory of the things which concern mine infirmities.  2Co 11:22-30

 

But I rejoiced in the Lord greatly, that now at the last your care of me hath flourished again; wherein ye were also careful, but ye lacked opportunity. Not that I speak in respect of want: for I have learned, in whatsoever state I am, therewith to be content. I know both how to be abased, and I know how to abound: every where and in all things I am instructed both to be full and to be hungry, both to abound and to suffer need.  Php 4:10-12

 

For I think that God hath set forth us the apostles last, as it were appointed to death: for we are made a spectacle unto the world, and to angels, and to men. We are fools for Christ's sake, but ye are wise in Christ; we are weak, but ye are strong; ye are honourable, but we are despised. Even unto this present hour we both hunger, and thirst, and are naked, and are buffeted, and have no certain dwellingplace; 1Cor. 4:9-11

 

But in all things approving ourselves as the ministers of God, in much patience, in afflictions, in necessities, in distresses, In stripes, in imprisonments, in tumults, in labours, in watchings, in fastings; By pureness, by knowledge, by longsuffering, by kindness, by the Holy Ghost, by love unfeigned, By the word of truth, by the power of God, by the armour of righteousness on the right hand and on the left, By honour and dishonour, by evil report and good report: as deceivers, and yet true; As unknown, and yet well known; as dying, and, behold, we live; as chastened, and not killed; As sorrowful, yet alway rejoicing; as poor, yet making many rich; as having nothing, and yet possessing all things 2Cor. 6;4-10

 

There is nothing in Paul's words in those portions of Scripture that would agree with what prosperity teachers teach.  Paul, by the standards of most prosperity teachers, would have a "poverty mentality."   Yet prosperity teachers hi-jack Paul's own words to preach and teach prosperity, just like you did with that passage in Galatians.   Paul's own teachings show that he didn't preach or teach prosperity and his own testimony reveals that his life is the polar opposite of what prosperity teachers claim believers' lives are supposed to be like. 

 

 

 

 

Most people who "leave" the Word of Faith churches typically think that God's Kingdom is a formula, you plug in a and add b then you get c. And it never works that way.( You stand on the promises and laws in the Word, in faith, at the direction of the Holy Spirit and do what He says as He says and stay in faith, keeping what you've taken in faith with your patience, daily staying in faith, not speaking crosswise of what you've received by faith.)

SO, they get mad, naturally, because they don't understand how it didn't work, and instead of being willing to understand and seek God for the answers, they stay mad and go into a numbe state of resignation and quit using their faith and rail against those who do or encourage others to do so.

 

I guess what is confusing is that this prosperity that God promises is supposed to be gift of grace provided by God, via Jesus' death on the cross.  In fact, I have personally listened to Word of Faith teachers say that prosperity, healing and salvation are all wrapped up in one.  It's a package deal thanks to the New Covenant.  Having been redeemed from the "curse" of poverty should work the same way as being redeemed from the curse of healing and the curse of sin.   So, if that is the case, why if I don't have to work for or earn salvation from sin, if that is a free gift via Jesus' death on the cross, why doesn't prosperity work the same way?  

 

If it is a gift of grace via Jesus' death on the cross, then I should be able to approrpriate it the same way I appropriate salvation, purely by faith.   The problem is that I am seeing in your words a mixed message.  On the one hand, we are to prosper because Jesus lifted the curse that keeps from  prospering, but on the other hand, the reason we don't prosper is because we don't plant money seeds and we don't use the law of sowing and reaping and/or because we speak the wrong words.   So either it is a gift of God's grace OR it is the product of personal effort via sowing and reaping.  I mean, you can't argue this both ways.   You are simply not seeing the theological and internal inconsistency in what you are promoting.

 

 

 

So, we're following the examples. Just to give you one example: Kenneth Copeland BEFORE he was of any reputation had the modern day equivalent of over $700,000 of debt wiped out by sowing and reaping in just 11 months! That is astounding! Impossible, but doable. This was before he had any real ministry - it would have been in his first year of attending ORU. He didn't sell anything to get that, he sowed and reaped.

 

That's probably not the whole story. Kenneth Copeland had some pretty high-powered connections in Tulsa with both Oral Roberts and Kenneth Hagin. There was probably a lot more going on behind the scenes, if we knew the truth and those connections paid off.  It probably had more to do with knowing the right people than sowing and reaping. 

 

 

 

 

 

I am quite certain that when he was a student at ORU he didn't know Kenneth Hagin personally at that time. He was a church "nobody" with no ministry of any kind yet.

 

Being empowered to prosper (blessed) does not mean you are automatically rich. The Blessing of the Lord spoken of in Proverbs 10:22 speaks of how it makes you rich, but apart from toil (in other words, you aren't beating your brains out trying to make it happen and putting pressure on people and working 16 jobs or working 50 hours a day or what have you). Rather you see the example with Isaac when he sowed into the land during a famine (when no one was bringing up much of anything) and reaped a 100fold the same year, and the Lord blessed him.

When Jesus speaks of the process of reaping and sowing, He uses natural process imagery to explain how it works spiritually. In natural sowing and reaping, the seed does not jump out of the farmer's hands and get into the ground by itself. The farmer physically puts his seed into a place that he knows is good soil. Then Jesus describes that the increase, or the blade, the corn and then the full corn in the ear are all automatic for God has brought the former and latter rains (from tithing Mal 3:10-12) and the Sun has shone upon it. Then when it is ripe, the farmer immediately puts in the sickle. So the farmer has to reap it himself (we command the angels and are led into the harvest by the Holy Spirit's direction and providence and do whatever is required to reap the harvest (sell/resell something, start a business, receive new clientelle, receive a new promotion, receive an inheritance, receive ______ ).

So in the instances of the sowing and the reaping, in Jesus' own words, WE DO WORK. It's up to the farmer if he wants to sow, and it's up to him if he wishes to reap; he could just leave it all sitting in the field (because of lack of desire, distraction, not tithing and the Devourer corrupted it...), but he'd be a fool to.

Sowing and reaping under the blessing is a privelege, not a requirement. It doesn't mean you are any less a Christian if you are someone who does not sow seed and reap harvests.

In the same way that if a Christian does not tithe, it does not make them less of a Christian, or if they don't get someone saved daily or if they don't speak in tongues, or if they don't preach the Good News in season and out...they are still a Christian regardless. They'll just be Christians that live well below their potential here on the Earth.

 

In the same way, if you have every disobeyed your parents one time, or did something that made them look bad in public or did not do something they asked you to do, or did not drive the family car when it was offered to you, did you cease to be their child? Did you become a 1/2 child, or a 1/8 of a child of your parents? Of course not, you were still their child just the same, you just did not do what they said or did not receive what they freely offered. You could also not receive their inheritance for you when they go to Heaven - you could leave it on the table and walk away, but you would be a fool to do so. WOuldn't make you less of their child, just one who isnt' walking in the fulness of what they laid up for you and said they desired for you to enjoy.

 

So there is WORK when it comes to sowing and reaping. Staying in faith everyday is "work". Praying is "work". Praise is "work" if you want to define work as being ANYTHING that you do other than breathe and lie in bed all day. Does not God say, you don't work you don't eat? You cannot reap where you have not sown. Sowing and reaping, and keeping in mind that Jesus made the choice to teach us about sowing and reaping in the spiritual by teaching us with how it works in the natural, saying they are the same, always requires work.

But you can work at that or you can work at worry, or work at fear or work at condemnation or work at getting more jobs, or work at reaping the fruit of all that junk. Either way, you are always working.

 

Grace doesn't mean no work, The word grace literally means unmerited favor, and in God's case, it is divine unmerited favor. It is God treating you as though sin has never happened. WOW! Hallelujah!

In getting saved by God's grace, did you not pray and receive what Jesus has already done for you? That was work. It didn't come on you automatically. The real definition of saved without works means you didn't EARN salvation. Just like you don't EARN sowing and reaping. It is a grace you walk in, as Paul teaches in 2 Cor 9, a favor of God you walk in. You don't EARN it, you work it. Just like working fields as a natural farmer like Jesus described. Everything you do in a day is under work. You work to get out of bed, you're working to breathe, you're working to blink, you're working to prepare and eat and digest food. Everything in life IS work of some kind to some degree, so to try to define being under grace as never do any sort of work is ludicrous. Again, sowing and reaping is a grace as Paul said and is work as Jesus said and it is not that you EARN it, but you do work AT it (you are applying what God has said to do under His direction - He tells you where to sow what you have already purposed in your heart and then He will lead you into the harvest as well, and you, just as in the natural example Jesus gave, sow, and you reap (except in spirtual reaping you seek God about it and send the angels to bring you into the harvest and cause them to reap it for you - they are the reapers).

 

I hope that explains it well enough.

[Guest]

Rodain, I have a very simple question that when I was asked made me think very carefully. The question was asked by an old preacher I had the privelige of knowing back in the 80's . . . around the time Copeland and his bunch were just getting started in a big way. (Yes, I am probably older than you think.) He said one question could help me find out where my heart was really at.

 

 

 

The question was this: "Would you still love Jesus if you lost it all?"

 

 

 

I haven't always made the best decisions over the years and I did lose it all at one point - but that was when I found Jesus was right there in the middle of the mess right alongside me. Checks did not rain from the sky, or money appear out of nowhere to "make it all go away." No one handed me a suitcase full on $100 bills to pay off all the debts with. But I know Jesus is still there . . . and frankly that's all I need.

[Guest ninhao]

 

 It is a grace you walk in, as Paul teaches in 2 Cor 9, a favor of God you walk in. You don't EARN it, you work it. Just like working fields as a natural farmer like Jesus described. Everything you do in a day is under work. You work to get out of bed, you're working to breathe, you're working to blink, you're working to prepare and eat and digest food. Everything in life IS work of some kind to some degree, so to try to define being under grace as never do any sort of work is ludicrous. Again, sowing and reaping is a grace as Paul said and is work as Jesus said and it is not that you EARN it, but you do work AT it (you are applying what God has said to do under His direction - He tells you where to sow what you have already purposed in your heart and then He will lead you into the harvest as well, and you, just as in the natural example Jesus gave, sow, and you reap (except in spirtual reaping you seek God about it and send the angels to bring you into the harvest and cause them to reap it for you - they are the reapers).

 

I hope that explains it well enough.

 

 

Firstly Rodain, breathing, blinking, digesting etc aren't conscious works they're the result of God's design. We don't decide these things they happen because we're made that way. As an experiment I'd be interested if you can hold your breath indefinitely or not blink or digest at will. Your reasoning is absurd.

 

Again you are mixing physical rewards with spiritual and this is troubling. You constantly dodge in depth study of the scriptures you proof text and I know why. Can you demonstrate in the scripture where Paul lived the example of reaping physical or monetary benefits you attribute to him ?

 

If not please stop wasting our time.

[Guest shiloh357]

 

I just wonder how rich the saints were who were hanging on crosses burning as torches by Nero.  Their reward is in Heaven, not here on earth.  Wealth has nothing on obedience.  One can be obedient and poor, not all blessings are monetary. Sometimes wealth can be a curse.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

 

What does riches have to do with what you're saying? When a reward is said to be in Heaven, God does not say it is not accessible while here on the Earth. Otherwise how did Jesus pray "Father, YOUR will be done HERE ON THE EARTH, JUST as it is IN HEAVEN." He is calling for Heaven to be made manifest here on the Earth. Deuteronomy 7 speaks of the days of Heaven upon the Earth for you, and that was in the OC, and since the NC is defined as being thoroughly better than the 1st, you could not decrease in benefits and have it be called better. Therefore, those days of Heaven (and David speaks of them too) on the Earth are you today.

If you have treasure in Heaven, and if it is as you say, inaccessible until you get there, WHAT NEED WILL YOU HAVE FOR THIS TREASURE IN HEAVEN? You won't have a need because there won't be an economic system in Heaven. The treasure in Heaven you store up (which is the harvest on your seed sown) is most certainly not only viable only here on the Earth but is accessible to you here on the Earth. Before you shout me down, investigate all that the Word has to say on the matter (not hearing man's opinions or emotions or past experiences of others or yourself).

Paul said that the MOST NOBLE of all those he preached to were the Bereans, because they didn't receive his reputation but rather they diligently checked up on what he said by looking into the Scriptures to see if what he preached was true according to the Word of God.

 

You are approaching our heavenly reward from a fleshly mindset.  The "treasure" we are storing up in heaven is not gold and silver.  The "treasure"  we are storing up in heaven has to do with things of eternal value.  Riches and wealth in this world are transitory and uncertain.  Jesus said in Matt. 6:19 that we are to lay up for ourselves treasures in heaven and that is done through service to God on earth.  The fact that they have their root in Christian character and our relationship with God means that these treasures are not some kind of heavenly bank account you can draw on here earth.  The treasures have to do with heavenly virtues for which you will be rewarded in heaven.  You completely miss the idea that Jesus is speaking of when it comes to heavenly treasure.

[Guest shiloh357]

 

 

 

Yet that is not what you find, you hear thousands upon thousands of testimonies of people who have followed what they are being taught from the Bible and they DO reap. I and my wife are NOT in ministry and are not selling millions of CDs and such, and yet we are prospering as we have been learning to sow and reap according what the Holy Spirit has led us to do. Gal 6:6-7 Do not be deceived, God is NOT mocked, for whatsoever a man sows, THAT shall HE reap.

 

You have to follow this out logically. If people were NOT getting harvests from seeds (by the way the Biblical example is that YOU do the sowing and YOU do the reaping, but the increase comes from the Lord (that's the only thing that's automatic in Jesus' example, so people missing their harvests is not on anyone but sower, just like in the natural; a farmer doesn't blame God if his harvest sits out there in the field and he doesn't reap it (the harvest doesn't jump into his barns); you ask the Holy Spirit to lead you into your harvest and show you how to reap it, and you are to know what you've sown and what you've believed for on the harvest so that you know when you've gotten it all) THEN these ministries would die out quickly as shams.

 

 

 

But Kenneth Copeland says that even sinners can work the whole sowing and reaping principles and prosper.  In fact, I have listened to him make that case with my own ears.  He says that sinners prosper in this world because sowing and reaping is a law or principle that God engineered into the world when He created it. 

 

If a sinner can prosper, according to Copeland, by following these same biblical priinciples in their lives, then why do they need Jesus?  Why wouldn't sowing and reaping work for them in every area of their lives if it is a princicple that God has hardwired into creation?   According to Copeland, it will work for whoever does it.   So I don't really need a covenant from God to prosper if I adhere to the law of sowing and reaping.

 

That again, highlights why what you are claiming is really nothing more than a false gospel.   If I can sow and will reap an amazing harvest by virtue of my efforts, I don't need a covenant from God.   The prosperity gospel eliminates the need for God by making me a god in my own life.

 

Your prosperity is the result of a law that even sinners can use, according to Copeland.  You are not following God, you are producing your own proserity by following a natural law that an atheist or satan worshipper can access and not need Jesus to do so.   So how is sowing and reaping an argument for a "prosperity gospel?"

 

 

We're both saying the same thing: I said follow, you said imitate. Paul says to do what he's doing, either way. The point of my message stands, because you are following the example of those, who through faith AND patience inherit the promiseS (plural) as spoken in Hebrews.

 

 

 

Okay, but Paul didn't live in the kind of prosperity that you teach/claim.  Look at what Paul suffered for the Gospel:

 

Are they Hebrews? so am I. Are they Israelites? so am I. Are they the seed of Abraham? so am I. Are they ministers of Christ? (I speak as a fool) I am more; in labours more abundant, in stripes above measure, in prisons more frequent, in deaths oft. Of the Jews five times received I forty stripes save one. Thrice was I beaten with rods, once was I stoned, thrice I suffered shipwreck, a night and a day I have been in the deep; In journeyings often, in perils of waters, in perils of robbers, in perils by mine own countrymen, in perils by the heathen, in perils in the city, in perils in the wilderness, in perils in the sea, in perils among false brethren; In weariness and painfulness, in watchings often, in hunger and thirst, in fastings often, in cold and nakedness. Beside those things that are without, that which cometh upon me daily, the care of all the churches. Who is weak, and I am not weak? who is offended, and I burn not? If I must needs glory, I will glory of the things which concern mine infirmities.  2Co 11:22-30

 

But I rejoiced in the Lord greatly, that now at the last your care of me hath flourished again; wherein ye were also careful, but ye lacked opportunity. Not that I speak in respect of want: for I have learned, in whatsoever state I am, therewith to be content. I know both how to be abased, and I know how to abound: every where and in all things I am instructed both to be full and to be hungry, both to abound and to suffer need.  Php 4:10-12

 

For I think that God hath set forth us the apostles last, as it were appointed to death: for we are made a spectacle unto the world, and to angels, and to men. We are fools for Christ's sake, but ye are wise in Christ; we are weak, but ye are strong; ye are honourable, but we are despised. Even unto this present hour we both hunger, and thirst, and are naked, and are buffeted, and have no certain dwellingplace; 1Cor. 4:9-11

 

But in all things approving ourselves as the ministers of God, in much patience, in afflictions, in necessities, in distresses, In stripes, in imprisonments, in tumults, in labours, in watchings, in fastings; By pureness, by knowledge, by longsuffering, by kindness, by the Holy Ghost, by love unfeigned, By the word of truth, by the power of God, by the armour of righteousness on the right hand and on the left, By honour and dishonour, by evil report and good report: as deceivers, and yet true; As unknown, and yet well known; as dying, and, behold, we live; as chastened, and not killed; As sorrowful, yet alway rejoicing; as poor, yet making many rich; as having nothing, and yet possessing all things 2Cor. 6;4-10

 

There is nothing in Paul's words in those portions of Scripture that would agree with what prosperity teachers teach.  Paul, by the standards of most prosperity teachers, would have a "poverty mentality."   Yet prosperity teachers hi-jack Paul's own words to preach and teach prosperity, just like you did with that passage in Galatians.   Paul's own teachings show that he didn't preach or teach prosperity and his own testimony reveals that his life is the polar opposite of what prosperity teachers claim believers' lives are supposed to be like. 

 

 

 

 

Most people who "leave" the Word of Faith churches typically think that God's Kingdom is a formula, you plug in a and add b then you get c. And it never works that way.( You stand on the promises and laws in the Word, in faith, at the direction of the Holy Spirit and do what He says as He says and stay in faith, keeping what you've taken in faith with your patience, daily staying in faith, not speaking crosswise of what you've received by faith.)

SO, they get mad, naturally, because they don't understand how it didn't work, and instead of being willing to understand and seek God for the answers, they stay mad and go into a numbe state of resignation and quit using their faith and rail against those who do or encourage others to do so.

 

I guess what is confusing is that this prosperity that God promises is supposed to be gift of grace provided by God, via Jesus' death on the cross.  In fact, I have personally listened to Word of Faith teachers say that prosperity, healing and salvation are all wrapped up in one.  It's a package deal thanks to the New Covenant.  Having been redeemed from the "curse" of poverty should work the same way as being redeemed from the curse of healing and the curse of sin.   So, if that is the case, why if I don't have to work for or earn salvation from sin, if that is a free gift via Jesus' death on the cross, why doesn't prosperity work the same way?  

 

If it is a gift of grace via Jesus' death on the cross, then I should be able to approrpriate it the same way I appropriate salvation, purely by faith.   The problem is that I am seeing in your words a mixed message.  On the one hand, we are to prosper because Jesus lifted the curse that keeps from  prospering, but on the other hand, the reason we don't prosper is because we don't plant money seeds and we don't use the law of sowing and reaping and/or because we speak the wrong words.   So either it is a gift of God's grace OR it is the product of personal effort via sowing and reaping.  I mean, you can't argue this both ways.   You are simply not seeing the theological and internal inconsistency in what you are promoting.

 

 

 

So, we're following the examples. Just to give you one example: Kenneth Copeland BEFORE he was of any reputation had the modern day equivalent of over $700,000 of debt wiped out by sowing and reaping in just 11 months! That is astounding! Impossible, but doable. This was before he had any real ministry - it would have been in his first year of attending ORU. He didn't sell anything to get that, he sowed and reaped.

 

That's probably not the whole story. Kenneth Copeland had some pretty high-powered connections in Tulsa with both Oral Roberts and Kenneth Hagin. There was probably a lot more going on behind the scenes, if we knew the truth and those connections paid off.  It probably had more to do with knowing the right people than sowing and reaping. 

 

 

 

 

 

I am quite certain that when he was a student at ORU he didn't know Kenneth Hagin personally at that time. He was a church "nobody" with no ministry of any kind yet.

 

Being empowered to prosper (blessed) does not mean you are automatically rich. The Blessing of the Lord spoken of in Proverbs 10:22 speaks of how it makes you rich, but apart from toil (in other words, you aren't beating your brains out trying to make it happen and putting pressure on people and working 16 jobs or working 50 hours a day or what have you). Rather you see the example with Isaac when he sowed into the land during a famine (when no one was bringing up much of anything) and reaped a 100fold the same year, and the Lord blessed him.

When Jesus speaks of the process of reaping and sowing, He uses natural process imagery to explain how it works spiritually. In natural sowing and reaping, the seed does not jump out of the farmer's hands and get into the ground by itself. The farmer physically puts his seed into a place that he knows is good soil. Then Jesus describes that the increase, or the blade, the corn and then the full corn in the ear are all automatic for God has brought the former and latter rains (from tithing Mal 3:10-12) and the Sun has shone upon it. Then when it is ripe, the farmer immediately puts in the sickle. So the farmer has to reap it himself (we command the angels and are led into the harvest by the Holy Spirit's direction and providence and do whatever is required to reap the harvest (sell/resell something, start a business, receive new clientelle, receive a new promotion, receive an inheritance, receive ______ ).

So in the instances of the sowing and the reaping, in Jesus' own words, WE DO WORK. It's up to the farmer if he wants to sow, and it's up to him if he wishes to reap; he could just leave it all sitting in the field (because of lack of desire, distraction, not tithing and the Devourer corrupted it...), but he'd be a fool to.

Sowing and reaping under the blessing is a privelege, not a requirement. It doesn't mean you are any less a Christian if you are someone who does not sow seed and reap harvests.

In the same way that if a Christian does not tithe, it does not make them less of a Christian, or if they don't get someone saved daily or if they don't speak in tongues, or if they don't preach the Good News in season and out...they are still a Christian regardless. They'll just be Christians that live well below their potential here on the Earth.

 

In the same way, if you have every disobeyed your parents one time, or did something that made them look bad in public or did not do something they asked you to do, or did not drive the family car when it was offered to you, did you cease to be their child? Did you become a 1/2 child, or a 1/8 of a child of your parents? Of course not, you were still their child just the same, you just did not do what they said or did not receive what they freely offered. You could also not receive their inheritance for you when they go to Heaven - you could leave it on the table and walk away, but you would be a fool to do so. WOuldn't make you less of their child, just one who isnt' walking in the fulness of what they laid up for you and said they desired for you to enjoy.

 

So there is WORK when it comes to sowing and reaping. Staying in faith everyday is "work". Praying is "work". Praise is "work" if you want to define work as being ANYTHING that you do other than breathe and lie in bed all day. Does not God say, you don't work you don't eat? You cannot reap where you have not sown. Sowing and reaping, and keeping in mind that Jesus made the choice to teach us about sowing and reaping in the spiritual by teaching us with how it works in the natural, saying they are the same, always requires work.

But you can work at that or you can work at worry, or work at fear or work at condemnation or work at getting more jobs, or work at reaping the fruit of all that junk. Either way, you are always working.

 

Grace doesn't mean no work, The word grace literally means unmerited favor, and in God's case, it is divine unmerited favor. It is God treating you as though sin has never happened. WOW! Hallelujah!

In getting saved by God's grace, did you not pray and receive what Jesus has already done for you? That was work. It didn't come on you automatically. The real definition of saved without works means you didn't EARN salvation. Just like you don't EARN sowing and reaping. It is a grace you walk in, as Paul teaches in 2 Cor 9, a favor of God you walk in. You don't EARN it, you work it. Just like working fields as a natural farmer like Jesus described. Everything you do in a day is under work. You work to get out of bed, you're working to breathe, you're working to blink, you're working to prepare and eat and digest food. Everything in life IS work of some kind to some degree, so to try to define being under grace as never do any sort of work is ludicrous. Again, sowing and reaping is a grace as Paul said and is work as Jesus said and it is not that you EARN it, but you do work AT it (you are applying what God has said to do under His direction - He tells you where to sow what you have already purposed in your heart and then He will lead you into the harvest as well, and you, just as in the natural example Jesus gave, sow, and you reap (except in spirtual reaping you seek God about it and send the angels to bring you into the harvest and cause them to reap it for you - they are the reapers).

 

I hope that explains it well enough.

 

No, you didn't address the issue I raised, at all.  In fact you completely sidestepped the fact that Copeland teaches that sowing and reaping in money works for sinners.  How is part of the Gospel if a sinner sow money and reap money just like a believer?   On the one hand, prosperity is a gift of grace, on the other, it is something you have "work"  in order to make it happen. 

 

If something is the product of grace, I don't have to earn it by sowing and reaping.  I just have to reach out and receive what Jesus has provided.   The problem is that sowing and reaping isn't the act of appropriating a covenant blessing according to Copeland.  According to him, it is a principle of the universe that ANYONE, in or out of the covenant, can make work. 

 

That is why prosperity isn't part of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.  Jesus didn't die so you could have a bigger car or stay in uber luxurious motels or be a mllionaire.  To attach fleshly self-indulgence to the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross is a disgrace.

[*Zion*]

 

If something is the product of grace, I don't have to earn it by sowing and reaping.  I just have to reach out and receive what Jesus has provided.   The problem is that sowing and reaping isn't the act of appropriating a covenant blessing according to Copeland.  According to him, it is a principle of the universe that ANYONE, in or out of the covenant, can make work. 

 

That is why prosperity isn't part of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.  Jesus didn't die so you could have a bigger car or stay in uber luxurious motels or be a mllionaire.  To attach fleshing self-indulgence to the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross is a disgrace.

 

 

Very well said.

 

Let me also point out that the days are coming when no one will be able to buy or sell except by the mark of the beast.  This gives ample meaning to the scripture: "The just shall live by faith."  but if poverty and sickness is always seen as a curse from God by prosperity preachers, they will have no other option but to accept the mark in order for their doctrines to remain valid.  Elisha even when he was dying of a sickness was anointed and used as a true instrument of God.  Jesus said that He didn't have a place to rest His head.  He certainly wasn't a millionaire; but He left true glory for the single purpose of saving our souls from sin and death.  Compared to that glory, the things that we buy and sell on earth are just a shadow.  All a temporary thing that so many chase after which has no impact whatsoever upon eternity.

 

The question is what prosperity is the bible speaking of in terms of blessing?  True prosperity in its absolute definition?  Where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.  Is your heart desirous for the things of this evil world, or longing for the greatest of all treasures, the Lord Jesus Christ Himself?  That's a question for each of us to answer.  When the time comes, it will be very easy for us to determine just by which choice we make.

[Sevenseas]

Very well said and thanks for your testimony. 

 

 

 

Thank you Shiloh..I know it was a long post...prob my longest ever...so thanks for taking the time to read it.