THE WORD OF GOD IS IRREVOCABLE

[Guest ninhao]

Just to throw it out there ... 30 years in scripture is the beginning of service in the temple.

 

The biblical year is 360 days, times the years they spent in bondage 400 equals 144,000 days, same as the number of those sealed in Revelation.

 

Hello x141,

 

I already have a large helping upon my plate thank you for the extra serving   ( this is an interesting tidbit ( excuse the frivolity ) of numeration and I see you enjoy this facet of the Bible )

 

 

( ps Dak nice observation concerning Joseph's passage into Egypt ! ) 

[Guest]

Just to throw it out there ... 30 years in scripture is the beginning of service in the temple.

 

The biblical year is 360 days, times the years they spent in bondage 400 equals 144,000 days, same as the number of those sealed in Revelation.

 

~

 

And Beloved, Although It May Not Appear So In These Times

 

"In that day shall there be a highway out of Egypt to Assyria, and the Assyrian shall come into Egypt, and the Egyptian into Assyria, and the Egyptians shall serve with the Assyrians. In that day shall Israel be the third with Egypt and with Assyria, even a blessing in the midst of the land: Whom the LORD of hosts shall bless, saying, Blessed be Egypt my people, and Assyria the work of my hands, and Israel mine inheritance." Isaiah 19:23-25

 

Great And Wondrous Things Are Afoot

[Guest ninhao]

I like numerical data and so I’ve been thinking of how to establish a good chronology of the time Israel spent in Egypt and what the 430 and 400 years implies.

Firstly I thought the first 30 years in Egypt were outside of slavery and mistreatment and this explained the difference but as Dak has well shown this doesn’t fit with a logical chronology. Jerry pointed out that using genealogy the absolute maximum amount of time Israel spent in Egypt is 350 years.

 

Gen 46:6  And they took their cattle, and their goods, which they had gotten in the land of Canaan, and came into Egypt, Jacob, and all his seed with him:

 

Gen 46:11  And the sons of Levi; Gershon, Kohath, and Merari.

 

 

Kohath was born before entering Egypt and lived to 133. ( Gen 46:11 Ex 6:18)

 

Amram was born in Egypt and lived to 137. ( Ex 6:20)

 

Moses was born to Amram and was 80 at the time of the Exodus. ( Ex 6:20 & 7:7)

 

This allows for a maximum of 350 years ( assuming Amram was born in the year Kohath died and that Moses was born in the year Amram died and the genealogy is unbroken. )

 

It’s more likely this is a much shorter period allowing for the ages of Kohath and Amram  to be less when fathering.

 

 

For now I will assume the time Israel spent in Egypt doesn’t represent the totality of the 430 and 400 year periods and look to another interesting scripture.

 

  

Exo 12:40-41  Now the sojourning of the children of Israel, who dwelt in Egypt, was four hundred and thirty years.  (41)  And it came to pass at the end of the four hundred and thirty years, even the selfsame day it came to pass, that all the hosts of the LORD went out from the land of Egypt.

 

 

As Jerry mentioned the “sojourning” may be separate from “who dwelt in Egypt”.  Ie. The entire sojourn included the time spent in Egypt.

 

 

Gal 3:16-17  Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.  (17)  And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.

 

 

Now it seems there is a correlation here that the law was given to Moses ~  430 years after the covenant was given to Abraham and this is the possible beginning of the sojourning.   I have read commentary which suggest Isaac was born 30 years after this covenant and this is the beginning of the mistreatment of Israel.

 

An obvious objection to this is that Abraham, and Isaac were not part of Israel but is it absurd to say there were ? 

 

Dak for curiosity sake I’ve done a small amount of calculations regarding the population increase during the time in Egypt. A standard form of population prediction may come from the equation  P_t   = P₀ e^rt     where P_t  is the final population P₀  is the initial population (70)  r is the growth rate and t  is the time period.

 

Apparently  Jewish traditional belief is that Israel spent 210 years in Egypt which seems plausible in light of the above genealogies ( which allows the combined ages of Kohath and Amram to = 130 years when fathering Amram and Moses )

 

Anyway using 210 years and a fruitful ( : D ) population growth rate of %4-%5  we come to a population at Exodus of  ~ over  1 million. (allowing for large assumptions here of course )

 

This study is a can of worms  I’m looking forward to your observations  Dak. ( I’m  learning  an important lesson of  substantiating claims BEFORE presenting them )

[Dak]

Hi ninhao. Interesting "can of worms" we got here.

Sorry for the rather late reply. I was very busy yesterday, and so was my WiFI network, so that I could only login now.

I haven't yet done my studies (been very busy, as I said), and so I cannot make any "scholarly" observations at this time. (Give me at least until Wednesday, will you?)

Only one thing comes readily to my mind while reading your post, and that is about their estimated population. Is one million or even two million enough for the Israelites to have filled the land, as the Bible said they did, so that the Egyptians were threatened by them? I don't have a map right now, but if I remember correctly, Egypt is a large country, and it seems to me that a mere two million foreigners spread within its boundaries wouldn't cause such an alarm. In fact, could it be that the Israelites actually outnumbered the Egyptians? If this is true, then they should be more than two million!

Consider our favorite passage from Exodus:

ESV > Exodus:

^1:6 Then Joseph died, and all his brothers and all that generation.

^1:7 But the people of Israel were fruitful and increased greatly; they multiplied and grew exceedingly strong, so that the land was filled with them.

^1:8 Now there arose a new king over Egypt, who did not know Joseph.

^1:9 And he said to his people, "Behold, the people of Israel are too many and too mighty for us.

^1:10 Come, let us deal shrewdly with them, lest they multiply, and, if war breaks out, they join our enemies and fight against us and escape from the land."

Note: Emphases are mine.

Would the Bible use such strong words to describe a mere two million people?

What if you substitute 400 years to the equation (just for calculation's sake)?

Also, I think that 70 is not their original number. I'm not sure, but doesn't the Bible mostly record and count only the men in families? So they would have to be more than 70.

~

[other one]

Hi ninhao. Interesting "can of worms" we got here.

Sorry for the rather late reply. I was very busy yesterday, and so was my WiFI network, so that I could only login now.

I haven't yet done my studies (been very busy, as I said), and so I cannot make any "scholarly" observations at this time. (Give me at least until Wednesday, will you?)

Only one thing comes readily to my mind while reading your post, and that is about their estimated population. Is one million or even two million enough for the Israelites to have filled the land, as the Bible said they did, so that the Egyptians were threatened by them? I don't have a map right now, but if I remember correctly, Egypt is a large country, and it seems to me that a mere two million foreigners spread within its boundaries wouldn't cause such an alarm. In fact, could it be that the Israelites actually outnumbered the Egyptians? If this is true, then they should be more than two million!

Consider our favorite passage from Exodus:

 

ESV > Exodus:

^1:6 Then Joseph died, and all his brothers and all that generation.

^1:7 But the people of Israel were fruitful and increased greatly; they multiplied and grew exceedingly strong, so that the land was filled with them.

^1:8 Now there arose a new king over Egypt, who did not know Joseph.

^1:9 And he said to his people, "Behold, the people of Israel are too many and too mighty for us.

^1:10 Come, let us deal shrewdly with them, lest they multiply, and, if war breaks out, they join our enemies and fight against us and escape from the land."

Note: Emphases are mine.

Would the Bible use such strong words to describe a mere two million people?

What if you substitute 400 years to the equation (just for calculation's sake)?

Also, I think that 70 is not their original number. I'm not sure, but doesn't the Bible mostly record and count only the men in families? So they would have to be more than 70.

~

 

 

Keep in mind that the vast majority of Egypt is not livable...   Once you get very far away from the Nile River, it's just desert......  and not the kind of desert that sustains life.

[Dak]

Hi ninhao. Interesting "can of worms" we got here.

Sorry for the rather late reply. I was very busy yesterday, and so was my WiFI network, so that I could only login now.

I haven't yet done my studies (been very busy, as I said), and so I cannot make any "scholarly" observations at this time. (Give me at least until Wednesday, will you?)

Only one thing comes readily to my mind while reading your post, and that is about their estimated population. Is one million or even two million enough for the Israelites to have filled the land, as the Bible said they did, so that the Egyptians were threatened by them? I don't have a map right now, but if I remember correctly, Egypt is a large country, and it seems to me that a mere two million foreigners spread within its boundaries wouldn't cause such an alarm. In fact, could it be that the Israelites actually outnumbered the Egyptians? If this is true, then they should be more than two million!

Consider our favorite passage from Exodus:

ESV > Exodus:

^1:6 Then Joseph died, and all his brothers and all that generation.

^1:7 But the people of Israel were fruitful and increased greatly; they multiplied and grew exceedingly strong, so that the land was filled with them.

^1:8 Now there arose a new king over Egypt, who did not know Joseph.

^1:9 And he said to his people, "Behold, the people of Israel are too many and too mighty for us.

^1:10 Come, let us deal shrewdly with them, lest they multiply, and, if war breaks out, they join our enemies and fight against us and escape from the land."

Note: Emphases are mine.

Would the Bible use such strong words to describe a mere two million people?

What if you substitute 400 years to the equation (just for calculation's sake)?

Also, I think that 70 is not their original number. I'm not sure, but doesn't the Bible mostly record and count only the men in families? So they would have to be more than 70.

~

Keep in mind that the vast majority of Egypt is not livable... Once you get very far away from the Nile River, it's just desert...... and not the kind of desert that sustains life.

Hmmm. Okay. So do you think ninhao's estimate is reasonable? Around 1 million people?

As I said earlier in this thread, I still think talking about Israel's population is not a good idea. There's just too many factors to consider... and too many unknown variables.

~

[other one]

 

Hmmm. Okay. So do you think ninhao's estimate is reasonable? Around 1 million people?

As I said earlier in this thread, I still think talking about Israel's population is not a good idea. There's just too many factors to consider... and too many unknown variables.

~

 

Numbers tells us that they took a count of the men over 20 years old, and there were 603,550 men over 20 years old.   This was, if I remember, about two years after they were in the desert.   Add wives and kids and I'd guess closer to 2 million +.    Kind of stressful to feed and water that many people.  I would think it was hard on the quail population.

 

I don't know about talking about it being a bad idea....   I find it very comforting that God would feed and water that many people while they were following him across the desert.

[Dak]

Hmmm. Okay. So do you think ninhao's estimate is reasonable? Around 1 million people?

As I said earlier in this thread, I still think talking about Israel's population is not a good idea. There's just too many factors to consider... and too many unknown variables.

~

Numbers tells us that they took a count of the men over 20 years old, and there were 603,550 men over 20 years old. This was, if I remember, about two years after they were in the desert. Add wives and kids and I'd guess closer to 2 million +. Kind of stressful to feed and water that many people. I would think it was hard on the quail population.

I don't know about talking about it being a bad idea.... I find it very comforting that God would feed and water that many people while they were following him across the desert.

So 2 million+ Israelites is at least plausible.

Thanks for referring us to Numbers. That is one important piece of info. I will check that out.

And okay, I think that I can agree with you that talking about the population is not a bad idea at all.

~

[Guest ninhao]

Hi ninhao. Interesting "can of worms" we got here.

Sorry for the rather late reply. I was very busy yesterday, and so was my WiFI network, so that I could only login now.

I haven't yet done my studies (been very busy, as I said), and so I cannot make any "scholarly" observations at this time. (Give me at least until Wednesday, will you?)

Only one thing comes readily to my mind while reading your post, and that is about their estimated population. Is one million or even two million enough for the Israelites to have filled the land, as the Bible said they did, so that the Egyptians were threatened by them? I don't have a map right now, but if I remember correctly, Egypt is a large country, and it seems to me that a mere two million foreigners spread within its boundaries wouldn't cause such an alarm. In fact, could it be that the Israelites actually outnumbered the Egyptians? If this is true, then they should be more than two million!

Consider our favorite passage from Exodus:

 

ESV > Exodus:

^1:6 Then Joseph died, and all his brothers and all that generation.

^1:7 But the people of Israel were fruitful and increased greatly; they multiplied and grew exceedingly strong, so that the land was filled with them.

^1:8 Now there arose a new king over Egypt, who did not know Joseph.

^1:9 And he said to his people, "Behold, the people of Israel are too many and too mighty for us.

^1:10 Come, let us deal shrewdly with them, lest they multiply, and, if war breaks out, they join our enemies and fight against us and escape from the land."

Note: Emphases are mine.

Would the Bible use such strong words to describe a mere two million people?

What if you substitute 400 years to the equation (just for calculation's sake)?

Also, I think that 70 is not their original number. I'm not sure, but doesn't the Bible mostly record and count only the men in families? So they would have to be more than 70.

~

 

 

Hi Dak please there's no hurry everything is done in good time. I think over 1 million Israelite is reasonable but as you say it would be good to have a comparison to the Egyptian population. I don't think we have that information in the Bible but it would be interesting.

 

There's also another interpretation which suggests the number of Israel were far less ( for logistical reasons ) which implies eleph means "chief" but I don't know if we should head into this trail.

 

Exo 12:37  And the children of Israel journeyed from Rameses to Succoth, about six hundred thousand on foot that were men, beside children.

 

'eleph ( translated thousand )

 

If I use the same population growth percentage and insert 400 years we have ~ 4.6 billion Israel . Please know these population figures are entirely hypothetical and are calculated with assumed ( extremely ) rates. For instance if I reduce the growth rate to %2.5 we have 1.5 million Israelite after 400 years. You see this method can be manipulated to show any figure we like so please know it's very subjective.

 

Yes there is some debate over the actual number of Israel who entered Egypt. ( another worm escapes the can if we compare Acts 7:14 + Genesis 46 all is explainable though. )

 

Gen 46:26-27  All the souls that came with Jacob into Egypt, which came out of his loins, besides Jacob's sons' wives, all the souls were threescore and six;  (27)  And the sons of Joseph, which were born him in Egypt, were two souls: all the souls of the house of Jacob, which came into Egypt, were threescore and ten.

 

 

Act 7:14  Then sent Joseph, and called his father Jacob to him, and all his kindred, threescore and fifteen souls.

 

 

Also for reference let's look at the population growth of USA over 400 years. ( of course this also includes immigration into Land of the Free ).

 

1610 Population 210

2010 Population 308,745,538 

 

[Dak]

Hi ninhao. I'll believe what you said that there's no hurry in this, and so I will take the time I need to study these things we've been discussing. You've done your homework, and you deserve the same from me.

The family matters that I've been dealing with lately have taken so much of my time, so that I've only been freed today -- and for the time being only. But this respite of a few weeks should be more than enough for us to have settled our discussions. I plan to start my studies tomorrow, and I think I would need another whole week to finish it. That's okay with you?

So for the meantime...

Can we now agree that 1 million+ Israelites leaving Egypt is reasonable? The Biblically-supported number of around 600 000 men does reasonably give an estimated total of 1 million+ Israelites.

Next, can we now leave the matter of population growth behind? As you said, the equation you've presented is very subjective, and can be used to say what we want it to say -- and that is not good.

Last, can we no longer discuss the actual number of Israelites that entered Egypt? This is another can in the worm that I think we can happily do without.

And so... this will leave us then with the juiciest and fattest worm in the can to dissect: the actual years that the Israelites had spent in Egypt as slaves. The heart of the controversy, that is.

~