Under the Law

[Guest ninhao]

Christ fulfilled the law and the prophets....when a covenant/contractual agreement is fulfilled, then there is no longer any obligation....

 

We are IN HIM and so the law is fulfilled for us...

 

When you have met all the conditions of any binding agreement, and all the terms of the agreement have been met and completed, the agreement is no longer binding.

 

All the conditions of the Old Covenant have been met and fulfilled in Christ and we are in Him....

 

Think about it...

 

Hello Brother Paul I'm not sure this is correct. Jesus met the conditions of the agreement ( law ) to become the perfect ( unblemished )  Lamb.

 

We can say that we benefit from this fulfillment through salvation is this what you mean ?

[other one]

thank you Brother Paul.....   I really needed to read this today.

[ProphecyKid]

It seems to be a trend from some modern teachers to claim that returning to the law, as mentioned by Paul in Galatians, means a believer is attempting to become self-righteous by not sinning.  

 

 

Gal 2:16  know that a person is not justified by the works of the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law, because by the works of the law no one will be justified.

 

It’s my understanding the works of the law Paul is speaking about here are ceremonial things like feasts, holy days, circumcision etc.

Modern prosperity and WOF teachers suggest a Christian’s  circumspection about sin is placing them under the law.  They teach self-examination is self-righteousness.

 

It’s my understanding the only way to be under the law is to be an unbeliever. 

 

 

Gal 5:17-18  For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever you want.  (18)  But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.

 

 

What does being under the law mean and what is the law as mentioned by Paul in Galatians?

 

We all have laws that govern how we live in our various countries. Now lets say you are driving in a place and the law says the speed limit is 60MPH but you are doing 70MPH. The police (officer of the law) stops you. At that point you know you are in trouble because you are in violation of the law. At that point you are supposed to pay the penalty for it. But the police decides to let you of with a warning. In essence, the police now gives you grace. You do not have to pay the penalty for violating the law anymore. You Are Free! 

 

Being under the law is being in the state where you sin which comes from the violation of the law, is not removed and is held against you, and you are due to pay the penalty for it. Going back to the traffic analogy a bit, the only person who would not need grace from the police officer would be the person who was perfect according to state and traffic law. But we know that none of us are perfect, so the only way for us to be saved is through grace.

 

Therefore, even in the OT salvation was always by grace. People who do not understand salvation say that in the OT they were saved by law and in the NT we are saved by grace but grace is the only way through which we can be saved. 

 

When Paul and many other writers mention the law they are speaking of the writings of Moses in general. Based on the context they can be referring to a various part of the law. You're understand of what the law is speaking about here could be right because it was only by doing the act of making sacrifices that they could have received justification for their sins. No one in the OT was justified by keeping the 10 commandments. You must offer a sacrifice for your sin and that is how you were justified. 

 

Somewhere along the line as seen in the time of Jesus the jews started believing that by their keeping of the law they could get salvation and this is why Paul had such a strong stance against the law being seen for that purpose. The law was never intended for that, but they began having a self righteous attitude and so it became a burden being placed on the people because of this false mindset. 

[Qnts2]

 

This is interesting Qnts. As a comparison what do you say Jesus abolished in Ephesians. That is; what is "the law of commandments contained in ordinances" ?

 

Eph 2:13-17  But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.  (14)  For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;  (15)  Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;  (16)  And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:  (17)  And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.

, 

 

 

The Ephesians verses are talking to Gentiles about the relationship between Jews and Gentiles. What is abolished is the enmity, and the enmity is the law of ordinances. This is the enmity between the Jews and Gentiles so God needs to deal with this so He can create One New Man.

 

Some of the 'ordinances' in the Mosaic covenant/law, work to keep the Jewish people separated from the surrounding people (Gentiles). One such ordinance or series of laws are the laws concerning what a person can or can not eat. In the Roman culture, as well as most other cultures, visiting or getting together, often involves food. It was very important in the Roman culture as well as the Jewish culture. To invite people to your house means to share food. But, the Kosher laws keep a Jewish person from eating in a Gentile home, so, essentially Jewish people could not go to a Gentile home to visit, as they would often have to decline food, which would be an insult, and cut short any visit. So, for Jew and Gentiles to be One together, this enmity, the law of ordinances, must be taken out of the way. It was not just food, but there are other laws concerning clean and unclean.  

 

Of course this takes us to Acts and the story of Peter and Cornelius. Peter was to go to the house of Cornelius who was a Gentile. The issue was first, Gentiles were considered unclean, a ritual condition. Peter could not eat the food at Cornelius' home. It was unclean and could render Peter ritually unclean.

 

Acts 10:9 On the next day, as they were on their way and approaching the city, Peter went up on the housetop about the ^[f]sixth hour to pray. ¹⁰ But he became hungry and was desiring to eat; but while they were making preparations, he fell into a trance; ¹¹ and he *saw the ^[g]sky opened up, and an ^[h]object like a great sheet coming down, lowered by four corners to the ground, ¹² and there were in it all kinds of four-footed animals and ^[i]crawling creatures of the earth and birds of the ^[j]air. ¹³ A voice came to him, “Get up, Peter, ^[k]kill and eat!” ¹⁴ But Peter said, “By no means, Lord, for I have never eaten anything ^[l]unholy and unclean.” ¹⁵ Again a voice came to him a second time, “What God has cleansed, no longer consider ^[m]unholy.” ¹⁶ This happened three times, and immediately the ^[n]object was taken up into the ^[o]sky.

¹⁷ Now while Peter was greatly perplexed in ^[p]mind as to what the vision which he had seen might be, behold, the men who had been sent by Cornelius, having asked directions for Simon’s house, appeared at the gate; ¹⁸ and calling out, they were asking whether Simon, who was also called Peter, was staying there. ¹⁹ While Peter was reflecting on the vision, the Spirit said to him, “Behold, ^[q]three men are looking for you. ²⁰ But get up, go downstairs and accompany them ^[r]without misgivings, for I have sent them Myself.” ²¹ Peter went down to the men and said, “Behold, I am the one you are looking for; what is the reason for which you have come?” ²² They said, “Cornelius, a centurion, a righteous and God-fearing man well spoken of by the entire nation of the Jews, was divinely directed by a holy angel to send for you to come to his house and hear ^[s]a message from you.” ²³ So he invited them in and gave them lodging.

 

In Acts 11, Peter returns to Jerusalem to report the outcome.

 

Acts 11:2  And when Peter came up to Jerusalem, ^[a]those who were circumcised took issue with him, ³ saying, “You ^[went to uncircumcised men and ate with them.”

 

God took away the law of ordinances, which is a separator to keep Jews and Gentiles apart, but now takes the Mosaic law out of the way, so Jews and Gentiles can be brought together as one new man.

 

 

Can you show me where God takes the Mosaic law out of the way  ie. we can say definitively that the laws contained in ordinances were abolished ( as written in Ephesians and demonstrated to Peter in vision )  but can we say the moral laws have been abolished ?

 

 

In the OT, there are many different covenants. A Covenant which applied to all people was the covenant with Noah and all of Noah's descendents. We of course are all Noahs descendents. At that time, the Jewish people did not yet exist and had not yet receive the Mosaic covenant.

 

Genesis 9:1 So God blessed Noah and his sons, and said to them: “Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth. ² And the fear of you and the dread of you shall be on every beast of the earth, on every bird of the air, on all that move on the earth, and on all the fish of the sea. They are given into your hand. ³ Every moving thing that lives shall be food for you. I have given you all things, even as the green herbs. ⁴ But you shall not eat flesh with its life, that is, its blood. ⁵ Surely for your lifeblood I will demand a reckoning; from the hand of every beast I will require it, and from the hand of man. From the hand of every man’s brother I will require the life of man.

⁶ “Whoever sheds man’s blood,

By man his blood shall be shed;

For in the image of God

He made man.

 

So, the command to not murder was in the Noachide covenant. It was also in the Mosaic covenant. It is also in the New Covenant. The command which says we are not to murder has been a command in every covenant since the fall of Adam. So certain moral laws have been a part of every covenant.

 

For us, we are no longer under the Noachide covenant, and I am no longer under the Mosaic covenant. We are both under the New Covenant. We are not to murder, as that is part of the New Covenant.

 

In Ephesians, the law refers to the Mosaic law which was given to the children of Israel. At Mt. Sinai, the children of Israel said they would do all that God said, for their entire lives and for all generations of the Jewish people. That means that a child who is born Jewish (and circumcized), is born obligated to the Mosaic law. Children of Israel who believe on Jesus are now under the New Covenant. Their obligation to the Mosaic covenant has been abolished by Jesus perfect life, death, and resurrection. We were also co-crucified with Jesus, when we become born again. The Old man is dead, and we are new creations. That is part of Jesus work. We no longer live. So our obligation to the Mosaic covenant was only for as long as we lived. What Jesus did was fulfill our obligations to the Mosaic covenant (and the Noachide covenant), making us able to accept and be under the New Covenant. Because both Jewish and Gentile believers are born again under the New Covenant, the law which separates can no longer separate us. For Jewish believers, our obligation to the Mosaic covenant has been abolished, and for Gentile believers, the obligation to the Noachide covenant of laws has been abolished as well as the subset of Mosaic laws which apply to Gentile. The New Covenant laws are written in our hearts by the indwelling Holy Spirit and the circumcision of the heart, and those laws could be what you would call moral laws.

 

That is the way I see it.    

[other one]

 

 

For us, we are no longer under the Noachide covenant, and I am no longer under the Mosaic covenant. We are both under the New Covenant. We are not to murder, as that is part of the New Covenant.

 

That is the way I see it.    

 

 

A side question....   if we are no longer under the covenant God made with Noah and his sons, does that mean that God is free to flood the world again.

[Guest ninhao]

In the OT, there are many different covenants. A Covenant which applied to all people was the covenant with Noah and all of Noah's descendents. We of course are all Noahs descendents. At that time, the Jewish people did not yet exist and had not yet receive the Mosaic covenant.

 

Genesis 9:1 So God blessed Noah and his sons, and said to them: “Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth. ² And the fear of you and the dread of you shall be on every beast of the earth, on every bird of the air, on all that move on the earth, and on all the fish of the sea. They are given into your hand. ³ Every moving thing that lives shall be food for you. I have given you all things, even as the green herbs. ⁴ But you shall not eat flesh with its life, that is, its blood. ⁵ Surely for your lifeblood I will demand a reckoning; from the hand of every beast I will require it, and from the hand of man. From the hand of every man’s brother I will require the life of man.

⁶ “Whoever sheds man’s blood,

By man his blood shall be shed;

For in the image of God

He made man.

 

So, the command to not murder was in the Noachide covenant. It was also in the Mosaic covenant. It is also in the New Covenant. The command which says we are not to murder has been a command in every covenant since the fall of Adam. So certain moral laws have been a part of every covenant.

 

For us, we are no longer under the Noachide covenant, and I am no longer under the Mosaic covenant. We are both under the New Covenant. We are not to murder, as that is part of the New Covenant.

 

In Ephesians, the law refers to the Mosaic law which was given to the children of Israel. At Mt. Sinai, the children of Israel said they would do all that God said, for their entire lives and for all generations of the Jewish people. That means that a child who is born Jewish (and circumcized), is born obligated to the Mosaic law. Children of Israel who believe on Jesus are now under the New Covenant. Their obligation to the Mosaic covenant has been abolished by Jesus perfect life, death, and resurrection. We were also co-crucified with Jesus, when we become born again. The Old man is dead, and we are new creations. That is part of Jesus work. We no longer live. So our obligation to the Mosaic covenant was only for as long as we lived. What Jesus did was fulfill our obligations to the Mosaic covenant (and the Noachide covenant), making us able to accept and be under the New Covenant. Because both Jewish and Gentile believers are born again under the New Covenant, the law which separates can no longer separate us. For Jewish believers, our obligation to the Mosaic covenant has been abolished, and for Gentile believers, the obligation to the Noachide covenant of laws has been abolished as well as the subset of Mosaic laws which apply to Gentile. The New Covenant laws are written in our hearts by the indwelling Holy Spirit and the circumcision of the heart, and those laws could be what you would call moral laws.

 

That is the way I see it.    

 

 

Some very interesting observations Qnts that I hadn't considered before.   Thank you.  I notice above the possibility you are Messianic Jew praise Jesus.

[Qnts2]

 

 

 

For us, we are no longer under the Noachide covenant, and I am no longer under the Mosaic covenant. We are both under the New Covenant. We are not to murder, as that is part of the New Covenant.

 

That is the way I see it.    

 

 

A side question....   if we are no longer under the covenant God made with Noah and his sons, does that mean that God is free to flood the world again.

 

God made a covenant with Noah, his descendents and all animals, birds etc, to never judge the world by flood. God also made a covenant with Noah and his descendents, which I consider a covenant only for people. In the covenant with Noah and descendents, they were allowed to eat any animal for the first time, but were not to consume blood. Of course animals were not told to refrain from consuming blood. Animals are also not told to not commit murder. So, there are two covenants.  

 

The Rainbow covenant is a unilateral covenant, meaning that agreement was based on Gods promise alone with nothing required from man. So, it is still in effect based on God alone.

[Qnts2]

 

 

 

Some very interesting observations Qnts that I hadn't considered before.   Thank you.  I notice above the possibility you are Messianic Jew praise Jesus.

 

 

Thanks. Yes, I am a Messianic Jew.

[other one]

 

 

 

 

For us, we are no longer under the Noachide covenant, and I am no longer under the Mosaic covenant. We are both under the New Covenant. We are not to murder, as that is part of the New Covenant.

 

That is the way I see it.    

 

 

A side question....   if we are no longer under the covenant God made with Noah and his sons, does that mean that God is free to flood the world again.

 

God made a covenant with Noah, his descendents and all animals, birds etc, to never judge the world by flood. God also made a covenant with Noah and his descendents, which I consider a covenant only for people. In the covenant with Noah and descendents, they were allowed to eat any animal for the first time, but were not to consume blood. Of course animals were not told to refrain from consuming blood. Animals are also not told to not commit murder. So, there are two covenants.  

 

The Rainbow covenant is a unilateral covenant, meaning that agreement was based on Gods promise alone with nothing required from man. So, it is still in effect based on God alone.

 

 

 

I've gone back and reread several times and I don't see where there are two covenants...

[Remnantrob]

It seems to be a trend from some modern teachers to claim that returning to the law, as mentioned by Paul in Galatians, means a believer is attempting to become self-righteous by not sinning.  

 

 

Gal 2:16  know that a person is not justified by the works of the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law, because by the works of the law no one will be justified.

 

It’s my understanding the works of the law Paul is speaking about here are ceremonial things like feasts, holy days, circumcision etc.

Modern prosperity and WOF teachers suggest a Christian’s  circumspection about sin is placing them under the law.  They teach self-examination is self-righteousness.

 

It’s my understanding the only way to be under the law is to be an unbeliever. 

 

 

Gal 5:17-18  For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever you want.  (18)  But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.

 

 

What does being under the law mean and what is the law as mentioned by Paul in Galatians?

Romans 3:19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. That's what I understand it to mean.