Biblical support of Eternal Hellfire?

[Guest DRS81]

No, you're bringing presuppositions to the text. It was the body that was created from the dust, and that's what returns to dust. Apart from God's breath/spirit man consists of nothing but the dust of the ground. That's clear from Genesis 2:7. God's breath/spirit returns to Him upon mans death, what is left to live on?

 

Haven't you ever seen a body decay? How can it continue on when it decays?

 

You say the body returns to dust, but all I'm seeing is your opinion. I still see no proof in scripture. Scripture about resurrection is not proof. Rev 20:13 is PROOF that we don't physically die after death. Judgment of sins is specifically that, JUDGMENT. Judgment is punishment, just the same as a criminal going to jail. The guy in control of the courtroom is called THE JUDGE, and his job is to punish the criminal for his crimes. The body decays and dies Butch5, but nonbelievers are still judged for their sins at the great white judgment throne in the afterlife!! Judgment for their sins!

[Butch5]

Wrong.   Spiritual death is separation from God.  The minute Adam sinned, man was separated from God and under the curse of death. Physical death is a symptom of that separation.

 

 

You won't find death defined as separation from God, that is a symptom of death, not a definition of it. If you can provide that definition I'll be happy to look at it.

 

It is a large part of Paul's teaching.  The curse of the law is spiritual separation from God (spiritual death).  Jesus redeemed us from it (Gal. 3:13)  The context of Rom. 5:12-21 is spiritual and is speaking of man's separation from God.  That is what spiritual death is.

 

 

You can’t make that case from the Scriptures. You’re imposing it on the Scriptures

 

When a person who doesn't know Jesus dies, his spirit doesn't go back to God.  He goes to hell.    Man is born spiritually dead and must be made alive by the Holy Spirit at the moment of salvation.

 

 

That’s not the case. The Scriptures plainly state man has “one” spirit and that that spirit returns to God upon death.

 

17 I said in mine heart, God shall judge the righteous and the wicked: for there is a time there for every purpose and for every work.

18 I said in mine heart concerning the estate of the sons of men, that God might manifest them, and that they might see that they themselves are beasts.

19 For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity.

20 All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again.

21 Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?

(Ecc 3:17-21 KJV)

 

I’m not sure how you’ve determined that man is born spiritually dead and separated from God when God’s spirit is in every living thing. Job said,

 

14 If he set his heart upon man, if he gather unto himself his spirit and his breath;

15 All flesh shall perish together, and man shall turn again unto dust. (Job 34:14-15 KJV)

 

According to Job if God gathered His spirit all flesh would die. 

 

Paul said that God give life to everyone.

 

13 I urge you in the sight of God who gives life to all things, and before Christ Jesus who witnessed the good confession before Pontius Pilate, (1Ti 6:13 NKJ)

 

Paul uses a present participle. God gives life to all things. If He stops giving life all things will die. How is anyone separated from God?

Edited January 1, 2014 by Butch5

[Butch5]

 

No, you're bringing presuppositions to the text. It was the body that was created from the dust, and that's what returns to dust. Apart from God's breath/spirit man consists of nothing but the dust of the ground. That's clear from Genesis 2:7. God's breath/spirit returns to Him upon mans death, what is left to live on?

 

Haven't you ever seen a body decay? How can it continue on when it decays?

 

You say the body returns to dust, but all I'm seeing is your opinion. I still see no proof in scripture. Scripture about resurrection is not proof. Rev 20:13 is PROOF that we don't physically die after death. Judgment of sins is specifically that, JUDGMENT. Judgment is punishment, just the same as a criminal going to jail. The guy in control of the courtroom is called THE JUDGE, and his job is to punish the criminal for his crimes. The body decays and dies Butch5, but nonbelievers are still judged for their sins at the great white judgment throne in the afterlife!! Judgment for their sins!

 

Unbelievers will be judged at their resurrection, not as a "ghost" in an afterlife. Jesus spoke of two resurrections as did John.

 

28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

(Joh 5:28-29 KJV)

 

Notice where they are. They're in their graves, not existing somewhere as a ghost. They are called forth from the grave, both the righteous and the wicked. The wicked will be cast into the Lake of Fire. That's why it's called the "Second Death". Because the wicked after being raised and judged will be cast into the Lake of Fire where they will die again, thus the term second death.

 

Here are few passages about returning to dust.

 

17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;

18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;

19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return. (Gen 3:17-19 KJV)

 

19 For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity.

20 All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again. (Ecc 3:19-20 KJV)

 

14 If he set his heart upon man, if he gather unto himself his spirit and his breath;

15 All flesh shall perish together, and man shall turn again unto dust. (Job 34:14-15 KJV)

[Guest DRS81]

Unbelievers will be judged at their resurrection, not as a "ghost" in an afterlife. Jesus spoke of two resurrections as did John.

Notice where they are. They're in their graves, not existing somewhere as a ghost.

 

Please listen carefully. The body and spirit are separate parts of the human existence. The body is just the shell where our spirits reside. Immediately after we die, our spirits either go to hell or heaven while our bodies rest in graves awaiting judgment. When the believer's body rises from their grave they will be resurrected into their new eternal bodies at the Bema Seat of Christ to dwell with Jesus forever. The believer's new body will be resurrected into their spirits that were already in heaven awaiting their new bodies. The believers will not be judged, rather they will receive rewards for what they did in the body on earth. When the nonbeliever's body rises from their grave they will be resurrected (not into new bodies but into judgment for their sins). The nonbelievers old body is judged then is sent back to hell where they are sent in physical bodies into the lake of fire for eternal punishment. If their bodies cease to exist in hell, then that is not punishment Butch5. The nonbelievers bodies are receiving the punishment because we had free will inside our bodies to do what we did on earth. Do you understand what I'm saying here. - DRS81

[Butch5]

 

Unbelievers will be judged at their resurrection, not as a "ghost" in an afterlife. Jesus spoke of two resurrections as did John.

Notice where they are. They're in their graves, not existing somewhere as a ghost.

 

Please listen carefully. The body and spirit are separate parts of the human existence. The body is just the shell where our spirits reside. Immediately after we die, our spirits either go to hell or heaven while our bodies rest in graves awaiting judgment. When the believer's body rises from their grave they will be resurrected into their new eternal bodies at the Bema Seat of Christ to dwell with Jesus forever. The believer's new body will be resurrected into their spirits that were already in heaven awaiting their new bodies. The believers will not be judged, rather they will receive rewards for what they did in the body on earth. When the nonbeliever's body rises from their grave they will be resurrected (not into new bodies but into judgment for their sins). The nonbelievers old body is judged then is sent back to hell where they are sent in physical bodies into the lake of fire for eternal punishment. If their bodies cease to exist in hell, then that is not punishment Butch5. The nonbelievers bodies are receiving the punishment because we had free will inside our bodies to do what we did on earth. Do you understand what I'm saying here. - DRS81

 

I clearly understand what you're saying. However, that is not what the Scriptures teach. You may believe that, but it's not from the Scriptures. "Nowhere" in Scripture is the punishment for sin an eternal burning, nowhere. The penalty for  sin again and again in the Scriptures is death. If the threatened punishment is death and the reality is eternal burning then that would mean God lied and I don't think anyone's going to believe that. Throughout the Scriptures the wicked "Perish" they don't burn eternally.

 

I've shown from multiple passages that the only spirit that is in a man belongs to God. Man is "NOT" a spirit living in a body. Man is a body that is given live via the breath/spirit of God. When God retrieves that breath/spirit man dies and returns to the dust. This is what the Scriptures teach. Everyone that dies goes into the grave to await the resurrection. God's spirit/breath that was in that person returns to God, of both the righteous and the wicked. That's what we find in the Scriptures.

[Guest DRS81]

I clearly understand what you're saying. However, that is not what the Scriptures teach. You may believe that, but it's not from the Scriptures. "Nowhere" in Scripture is the punishment for sin an eternal burning, nowhere.

 

Rev 20:13. Focus on the word judged. Rev 20:14. Focus on the word fire.

[Butch5]

 

I clearly understand what you're saying. However, that is not what the Scriptures teach. You may believe that, but it's not from the Scriptures. "Nowhere" in Scripture is the punishment for sin an eternal burning, nowhere.

 

Rev 20:13. Focus on the word judged. Rev 20:14. Focus on the word fire.

 

13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. (Rev 20:13-14 KJV)

 

What are the last five words? "This is the second death," It's not the second death if they don't die. Burning in eternal fire is not death. The passage you're quoting refutes your argument.

 

This passage is just what Jesus was talking about in John 5 that I quoted, those who did evil will be raised to the resurrection of damnation. The sea, death, and Hades gave up their dead.

[Izzel]

God is love He will not burn man in a oven forever

[Spock]

God is love He will not burn man in a oven forever

Lol, I've never heard it the way you said it, but as you probably read, I'm with you on this one too.

[Guest shiloh357]

 

Wrong.   Spiritual death is separation from God.  The minute Adam sinned, man was separated from God and under the curse of death. Physical death is a symptom of that separation.

 

 

You won't find death defined as separation from God, that is a symptom of death, not a definition of it. If you can provide that definition I'll be happy to look at it.

 

Of course you will find it.  In the book of Genesis, Adam and Eve enjoyed fellowship with God until Adam ate of forbidden fruit.  From that point on Adam and Eve were trying to hide from God.   God told them that in the day they ate of that fruit, they would die.  Obviously, Adam didn't physically die, but at that point, the fellowship between God and human beings was broken and they were separeted from God in their sin and that has been been the default spiritual condition of man ever since.

 

Even to OT Israel God said through the prophet Isaiah:

 

But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.

Isa 59:2

 

Jesus in Rom. 5:12-21 died to restore the broken relationship by reversing the curse of death that Adam brought into the world by His disobedience.   Jesus' obedience satisfied God's justice to sin and the Bible teaches that we can now have a restored relationship with God through Jesus Christ because of the finshed work on the cross.

 

Speaking of sinners in Eph. 4:18  Paul refers to them as alienated (separated) from God due to their ignorance and hardness of heart.  That is how sinners stand before God.  They stand separated from God.   But speaking of us as believers, Paul says  back in Eph. 2:1, 5 that we were dead in tresspasses and sins.  That is spiritually death, not physical death.  We are dead in tresspasses and sin, but God who is rich in mercy has made us alive together with Christ.   That is what eternal life is.  Eternal life is the very life of God within us.  We are made spiritually alive by the indwelling, transforming power of the Holy Spirit.

 

In  IICorinthians 5, Paul speaks about how Jesus has reconciled us back into right relationship with God.  We were at enmity with God, separated and out of fellowship with Him, but Paul says this:

 

For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one has died for all, therefore all have died; and he died for all, that those who live might no longer live for themselves but for him who for their sake died and was raised. From now on, therefore, we regard no one according to the flesh. Even though we once regarded Christ according to the flesh, we regard him thus no longer. Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come. All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself and gave us the ministry of reconciliation; that is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation.

2Co 5:14-19

 

The part I am zeroing in on is that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself.   You only reconcile that which is separated from you.  Reconciliation speaks to rejoining of two people who are apart from each other.  The Bible describes our separation from God as enmity.  We are enemies of God in our default spiritual condition and Jesus brings reconciliation because of the finished work of the cross.

 

I’m not sure how you’ve determined that man is born spiritually dead and separated from God when God’s spirit is in every living thing. Job said,

 

14 If he set his heart upon man, if he gather unto himself his spirit and his breath;

15 All flesh shall perish together, and man shall turn again unto dust. (Job 34:14-15 KJV)

 

According to Job if God gathered His spirit all flesh would die. 

 

That is some very sloppy exegesis.

 

1. The Bible doesn't say that God's spirit is in every living thing.  That sounds closer to neo-paganism than anything else.  God gives life to every living thing, but His Spirit is not in every living thing.  

 

2.  The ONLY living things the Bible says that God spirit indwells on this earth is born again believers.   God is not living inside dogs and cats and pigs.

 

3.   The passage in Job is saying that if God sets His heart against man, if God were to gather his (man's) spirit and breath man will die.  The "all flesh" is not refering to every living creature man or beast.  That is isn't focus sense it is simply God setting himself against man, not every creature.   You are not reading the passage correctly. 

 

That’s not the case. The Scriptures plainly state man has “one” spirit and that that spirit returns to God upon death.

 

17 I said in mine heart, God shall judge the righteous and the wicked: for there is a time there for every purpose and for every work.

18 I said in mine heart concerning the estate of the sons of men, that God might manifest them, and that they might see that they themselves are beasts.

19 For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity.

20 All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again.

21 Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?

(Ecc 3:17-21 KJV)

 

 

The problem here is that you act as if this is all the Bible has to say on the matter, as if this passage contains all of the truth needed for this issue, and it doesn't.  Besides, this is talking about physical death, not man's spiritual condition before God.  The NT teaches that man is spiritually alienated and dead in tresspasses and sins and that he has to be brought back to God and made alive spiritually through Christ.  That is what salvation is all about. It's about spritual life given to those who were  previously dead in sin.

 

Paul said that God give life to everyone.

 

13 I urge you in the sight of God who gives life to all things, and before Christ Jesus who witnessed the good confession before Pontius Pilate, (1Ti 6:13 NKJ)

 

Paul uses a present participle. God gives life to all things. If He stops giving life all things will die. How is anyone separated from God?

 

As I have shown we are separated (out of fellowship) with God through sin.  I think you are trying to define "separation" from a physical perspective and I am using "separation" from a theological persepctive.  You are not differentiating between the physical life and breath that God gives to everyone and the spiritual life that we only get through Jesus, that comes when our spirits are made alive in Christ.