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Luke 16:19-31 The Rich Man and Lazarus


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Guest shiloh357
Posted

 

I didn't say the parable isn't speaking about the afterlife.  I said the parable isn't speaking to the issue of how soon after death someone goes to hell or heaven.

 

ok, but to me this seems like it's right away. why would it be such a bad thing if the parable means right away, since other scriptures point to "right away to be with the Lord"..

 

22"The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried.23In hell, where he was in torment

 

What I am saying is that the parable's purpose is not to speak to the issue of what happens the minute we die.  Jesus has a much different purpose in mind and we need to keep that purpose in front of us while we are reading it.   There is no need to keep trying to make parable teach what it is not intending to teach. 

Guest shiloh357
Posted

 

 

 

 

 

I don't think this parable proves that.

There is quite a debate of it being parable!

 

What is the debate about enoob?

 

No where in the account are we given permission to call it a parable... even the naming is specific

to individuals and that is not found anywhere else in any other known parable! You do not name that

which is not! Love, Steven

 

I was common among the Rabbis to use the names of real people in parables.   In some cases, they even used the names of famous Rabbis.   That Jesus used real people doesn't mean this is not a parable.  And from a literary perspective, it is a parable. 

 

 

In the NT, whenever Jesus told a parable, He indicated that it was a parable. In the case of Lazarus and the rich man, there is no indication that it is a parable.

 

In Judaism, that parables told by the Rabbis which used real names, used famous peoples names, such as well known Rabbis, and notorious heretics. Neither Lazaraus nor the rich man are famous, notorious, or Rabbis. 

But you are forgetting that Abraham speaks to the rich man.  So the parable IS using a famous person from Jewish history in a fictitious conversation.   This parable has all the ear marks of  a parable and there is absolutely NO evidence to suggest that it was a real event.  


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Posted

But you are forgetting that Abraham speaks to the rich man.  So the parable IS using a famous person from Jewish history in a fictitious conversation.   This parable has all the ear marks of  a parable and there is absolutely NO evidence to suggest that it was a real event.

As there IS no evidence to support it was not a real event. In fact being spoken plainly by Christ before

He had this written by Spirit

Eph 4:8-10

8 Therefore He says:

"When He ascended on high,

He led captivity captive,

And gave gifts to men."

9 (Now this, "He ascended" — what does it mean but that He also first descended into the lower parts of the earth? 10 He who descended is also the One who ascended far above all the heavens, that He might fill all things.)

NKJV

Is so very real by witness of the Psalm and Christ and New Testament letter... Love, Steven


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Posted

Firstly, let me thank you for an interesting answer to my question.

 

 

 

Abrahams bosom is a Jewish expression from the time when Jesus walked the earth. It is not unusual for the NT to have Jewish expressions from that time, especially when Jesus or the disciples are conversing with the Jewish people. Abrahams bosom is also called paradise, and in some cases another expression used which does not appear in the NT, is 'gan Eden'. Abrahams bosom would be paradise, or sheol. The rich man across the gulf, would be in Gehenna

 

​That answers some of the questions, tell me what is your source for this information about 'Abraham's bosom'?

 

The ISBE revised edition states, "The rabbis divided the state after death (SHEOL ) into a place for the righteous and a place for the wicked; but it is doubtful whether the figure of Jesus quite corresponds with this idea. "Abraham's bosom" is not spoken of as in "Hades," but rather as distinguished from it (Luke 16:23)—a place of blessedness by itself. There Abraham receives, as at a feast, the truly faithful, and admits them to closest intimacy. It may be regarded as the equivalent to the "Paradise" of Luke 23:43." (from International Standard Bible Encyclopedia, revised edition, Copyright © 1979 by Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing Co. All rights reserved.) 

 

 

  

 

The term Abrahams bosom is used in Jewish literature, such as the Babylonian Talmud, Kiddushin 72b, where are great Rabbi is referred to as sitting in Abrahams bosom. 

 

Thanks, I will take your word for it as I don't have it to check up on. 

 

However it is worth noting that the Babylonian Talmud were compiled between the third and firth centuries, which is after Luke's account and not before it, or even concurrent with it. This is not, therefore, a reliable source of evidence for asserting what this phrase meant in Jesus' day, indeed it doesn't even speak to it being used at all in Jesus Day. Then there is also the geographical distance to be considered, this Talmud was compiled by Babylonian Jews, and not Palestinian Jews, one would need to rule out the influence of Greek thought, particularly platonic thought upon their interpretations, and then of course there is the fact that these are man who missed the main thrust of the Old Testament concerning the Messiah, and surely that goes directly to their reliability in regards to their interpretation of scripture.

 

Can you give me a source that establishes this as being a well used idiom in Jesus' day and culture?

 

Now all I have is secondary sources but this is what I have found:

 

The expression “Abraham’s bosom” (KJV) is unknown elsewhere in first-century Judaism, but such passages as 4 Macc 13:17; 1 Kgs 1:21; 2:10; 11:21 contain a similar idea. (Stein, R. H. (1992). Luke (Vol. 24, p. 424). Nashville: Broadman & Holman Publishers.) 
 
Abraham’s bosom, a metaphor in Jesus’ parable about the rich man and Lazarus (Luke 16:19-31). To be in or at someone’s bosom means to recline to the right of the host (the place of honor) at a meal (cf. John 13:23). Various ideas and images were current in Jesus’ time to describe the state of the dead, especially those special to God; these included references to Abraham (cf. 1 Enoch 22; 4 Macc. 13:17; 2 Esd. 7:36, 38, 88-99). Christians later used this metaphor as another designation for Paradise. (Achtemeier, P. J., Harper & Row and Society of Biblical Literature. (1985). In Harper’s Bible dictionary. San Francisco: Harper & Row.)
 
ABRAHAM’S BOSOM—(Luke 16:22, 23) refers to the custom of reclining on couches at table, which was prevalent among the Jews, an arrangement which brought the head of one person almost into the bosom of the one who sat or reclined above him. To “be in Abraham’s bosom” thus meant to enjoy happiness and rest (Matt. 8:11; Luke 16:23) at the banquet in Paradise. (Easton, M. G. (1893). In Easton’s Bible dictionary. New York: Harper & Brothers.)
 
Just about everything else I can locate says the same sort of thing - there is no mention of this being a common idiom of the day. 
 

Just as a note, if the people in outer darkness lack a body, yet, scripture says there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Your argument reminds me of the argument that in scripture, God is said to be Spirit, no body, yet we see references to God reaching out with his hand or arm in the OT. We can say with certainty that God did not have a hand or arm made of flesh.  Is this an anthropomorphism?
 
The text of Luke 16 is a reference to the intermediary state, or at least it must be if you take in literally for the rich man still has family who are living on the earth. And we know that this is a state in which we exist without our bodies. Peter for example speaks of putting off the tent of our bodies for a time 2 pet 1:13-14, Paul speaks of being reunited with our bodies in the resurrection, 1 Cor 15 etc. As for the analogy, and the question does God have arms etc, forgive me if I don't pursue that root any further.  
 

 I'll just say that I am familiar with Judaism and Jewish literature, so I have known of these expressions for years and their meaning, having learned them and taught them.
 
I am not questioning your expertise in this field my friend, but whilst it is true that knowledge demands attention and a fair hearing, it does not always mean that the one speaking has all the answers, and that their explanations cannot be challenged if thinks there is evidence to do so, and my friend I am not a complete novice where these things are concerned.    
 
As one with knowledge in this area I am sure you are aware that within Judaism at the time of Christ and also later there was no single, uniform view of the afterlife. Much like  the Christian church, the Jews had very different opinions regarding the life to come. Indeed the sect of the Sadducee's didn't believe in an afterlife, Acts 23:8. The reality is that Jewish sacred texts do not speak much about the afterlife, a lot was left to interpretation, and those interpretations abound, most of the more developed views seem to have developed under Hellenistic (Greek) influences. Might it, therefore, be far to say whilst some Jews thought in this way, we cannot be certain they all did?  
Guest shiloh357
Posted

 

But you are forgetting that Abraham speaks to the rich man.  So the parable IS using a famous person from Jewish history in a fictitious conversation.   This parable has all the ear marks of  a parable and there is absolutely NO evidence to suggest that it was a real event.

As there IS no evidence to support it was not a real event. In fact being spoken plainly by Christ before

He had this written by Spirit

Eph 4:8-10

8 Therefore He says:

"When He ascended on high,

He led captivity captive,

And gave gifts to men."

9 (Now this, "He ascended" — what does it mean but that He also first descended into the lower parts of the earth? 10 He who descended is also the One who ascended far above all the heavens, that He might fill all things.)

NKJV

Is so very real by witness of the Psalm and Christ and New Testament letter... Love, Steven

 

Nonsense.  I don't have to support that it was not a real event.  Every literary ear mark in the story points to it being a parable whether you like it or not.  Sorry but the Scriptures you posted are just completely irrelevant to the issue and the parable.

Posted

 

 

The reason I don't think it does is because of the phrase, "Abraham's Bosom."    Bear with me..

 

But there are well-knit, worded descriptions specifically about the afterlife...

 

1. vs 22 - begger died/angels carried him/rich man died and buried

2. vs 23 - hell/torment

3. vs 24 - agony in fire

4. vs 28 - torment

5. vs 30 - if someone from the dead goes to them

6. vs 31 - they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead

 

I understand that , but  Abraham's Bosom is a future event.

 

It's a future event, but the event is not real?


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Posted

 

Firstly, let me thank you for an interesting answer to my question.

 

 

 

Abrahams bosom is a Jewish expression from the time when Jesus walked the earth. It is not unusual for the NT to have Jewish expressions from that time, especially when Jesus or the disciples are conversing with the Jewish people. Abrahams bosom is also called paradise, and in some cases another expression used which does not appear in the NT, is 'gan Eden'. Abrahams bosom would be paradise, or sheol. The rich man across the gulf, would be in Gehenna

 

​That answers some of the questions, tell me what is your source for this information about 'Abraham's bosom'?

 

The ISBE revised edition states, "The rabbis divided the state after death (SHEOL ) into a place for the righteous and a place for the wicked; but it is doubtful whether the figure of Jesus quite corresponds with this idea. "Abraham's bosom" is not spoken of as in "Hades," but rather as distinguished from it (Luke 16:23)—a place of blessedness by itself. There Abraham receives, as at a feast, the truly faithful, and admits them to closest intimacy. It may be regarded as the equivalent to the "Paradise" of Luke 23:43." (from International Standard Bible Encyclopedia, revised edition, Copyright © 1979 by Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing Co. All rights reserved.) 

 

 

  

 

The term Abrahams bosom is used in Jewish literature, such as the Babylonian Talmud, Kiddushin 72b, where are great Rabbi is referred to as sitting in Abrahams bosom. 

 

Thanks, I will take your word for it as I don't have it to check up on. 

 

However it is worth noting that the Babylonian Talmud were compiled between the third and firth centuries, which is after Luke's account and not before it, or even concurrent with it. This is not, therefore, a reliable source of evidence for asserting what this phrase meant in Jesus' day, indeed it doesn't even speak to it being used at all in Jesus Day. Then there is also the geographical distance to be considered, this Talmud was compiled by Babylonian Jews, and not Palestinian Jews, one would need to rule out the influence of Greek thought, particularly platonic thought upon their interpretations, and then of course there is the fact that these are man who missed the main thrust of the Old Testament concerning the Messiah, and surely that goes directly to their reliability in regards to their interpretation of scripture.

 

Can you give me a source that establishes this as being a well used idiom in Jesus' day and culture?

 

Now all I have is secondary sources but this is what I have found:

 

The expression “Abraham’s bosom” (KJV) is unknown elsewhere in first-century Judaism, but such passages as 4 Macc 13:17; 1 Kgs 1:21; 2:10; 11:21 contain a similar idea. (Stein, R. H. (1992). Luke (Vol. 24, p. 424). Nashville: Broadman & Holman Publishers.) 
 
Abraham’s bosom, a metaphor in Jesus’ parable about the rich man and Lazarus (Luke 16:19-31). To be in or at someone’s bosom means to recline to the right of the host (the place of honor) at a meal (cf. John 13:23). Various ideas and images were current in Jesus’ time to describe the state of the dead, especially those special to God; these included references to Abraham (cf. 1 Enoch 22; 4 Macc. 13:17; 2 Esd. 7:36, 38, 88-99). Christians later used this metaphor as another designation for Paradise. (Achtemeier, P. J., Harper & Row and Society of Biblical Literature. (1985). In Harper’s Bible dictionary. San Francisco: Harper & Row.)
 
ABRAHAM’S BOSOM—(Luke 16:22, 23) refers to the custom of reclining on couches at table, which was prevalent among the Jews, an arrangement which brought the head of one person almost into the bosom of the one who sat or reclined above him. To “be in Abraham’s bosom” thus meant to enjoy happiness and rest (Matt. 8:11; Luke 16:23) at the banquet in Paradise. (Easton, M. G. (1893). In Easton’s Bible dictionary. New York: Harper & Brothers.)
 
Just about everything else I can locate says the same sort of thing - there is no mention of this being a common idiom of the day. 
 

 

Just as a note, if the people in outer darkness lack a body, yet, scripture says there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Your argument reminds me of the argument that in scripture, God is said to be Spirit, no body, yet we see references to God reaching out with his hand or arm in the OT. We can say with certainty that God did not have a hand or arm made of flesh.  Is this an anthropomorphism?
 
The text of Luke 16 is a reference to the intermediary state, or at least it must be if you take in literally for the rich man still has family who are living on the earth. And we know that this is a state in which we exist without our bodies. Peter for example speaks of putting off the tent of our bodies for a time 2 pet 1:13-14, Paul speaks of being reunited with our bodies in the resurrection, 1 Cor 15 etc. As for the analogy, and the question does God have arms etc, forgive me if I don't pursue that root any further.  
 

 

 I'll just say that I am familiar with Judaism and Jewish literature, so I have known of these expressions for years and their meaning, having learned them and taught them.
 
I am not questioning your expertise in this field my friend, but whilst it is true that knowledge demands attention and a fair hearing, it does not always mean that the one speaking has all the answers, and that their explanations cannot be challenged if thinks there is evidence to do so, and my friend I am not a complete novice where these things are concerned.    
 
As one with knowledge in this area I am sure you are aware that within Judaism at the time of Christ and also later there was no single, uniform view of the afterlife. Much like  the Christian church, the Jews had very different opinions regarding the life to come. Indeed the sect of the Sadducee's didn't believe in an afterlife, Acts 23:8. The reality is that Jewish sacred texts do not speak much about the afterlife, a lot was left to interpretation, and those interpretations abound, most of the more developed views seem to have developed under Hellenistic (Greek) influences. Might it, therefore, be far to say whilst some Jews thought in this way, we cannot be certain they all did?  

 

 

The Talmud is made up of two major parts. The Mishnah was recorded starting around 200 ce. Most of the early parts were records of stories passed down orally, so some of the recorded information pre-dates the actual writing. Quotes from Hillel and Shammai are included. Hillel the elder was born around 110 bce and died 10 ce, before Jesus was born. He was Gamaliels teacher. Supposedly the term 'bosom of Abraham' was used during the second Temple period from 500 bce on, in various old Jewish writings. As well as references to the bosom of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob as the place for righteous people.

 

I think Shiloh mentioned the relationship with the Jewish custom of reclining on the left side at the table, which pre-dates Jesus, thru the time of Jesus.   

 

As far as the varying views in Judaism concerning the afterlife, that is true. The Pharisees would represent the view of the majority of Jewish people of that time, as they were spread out in the various towns which had Jewish populations and offered schools to teach the Jewish people the scriptures. In the Jewish view of the afterlife, there are certain concepts generally accepted by most of the population, but details are sidely varied. There is limited literature on the afterlife in Judaism as the OT does not go into a lot of detail. But, the idea of sheol, gehanna, Abrahams bosom, gan eden, paradise, as well as the age to come, are all general ideas and would be known terminology of that time period. That is supported by various literature, as well as by Jesus use without further explanation to a Jewish audience.


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Posted

Well, my friend, we must agree to differ, for as I have cited in a few examples all the sources I have available to me do not consider the term 'Abraham's bosom' to have that kind of use in 1st century Palestine, and it seems your evidence is largely anecdotal at this point. Nor should we get hung up on this single point, but rather return to the central point of the discussion. 


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Posted

 

This parable was not to show us what happens when a man dies.

 

Then what are the reasons behind post#4, words describing the afterlife. What does hell, died, angels carried him, buried, torment, agony in fire mean in Luke 16 here if it doesn't describe the afterlife..

 

But there are well-knit, worded descriptions specifically about the afterlife...

 

1. vs 22 - begger died/angels carried him/rich man died and buried

2. vs 23 - hell/torment

3. vs 24 - agony in fire

4. vs 28 - torment

5. vs 30 - if someone from the dead goes to them

6. vs 31 - they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead

 

 

That's like asking the question why did Jesus in the parable of the sower and the seed use words like sow, seed, field and plant if he was not telling us that we should go out and become farmers. If that's the story being used to portray the message, the appropriate terms obviously have to be used. That doesn't mean the story is to be taken literally. 

Guest shiloh357
Posted

 

 

 

The reason I don't think it does is because of the phrase, "Abraham's Bosom."    Bear with me..

 

But there are well-knit, worded descriptions specifically about the afterlife...

 

1. vs 22 - begger died/angels carried him/rich man died and buried

2. vs 23 - hell/torment

3. vs 24 - agony in fire

4. vs 28 - torment

5. vs 30 - if someone from the dead goes to them

6. vs 31 - they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead

 

I understand that , but  Abraham's Bosom is a future event.

 

It's a future event, but the event is not real?

 

It is an eschatological term.  Go back and read my first post in this thread which speaks to it.  I don't like having to repost the  same info over and over.

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