OEC and The New Heavens and New Earth

[Guest shiloh357]

 

 

 

 

Interesting questions, they will require some thought and study.  One quick question on the top, will there be a possibility of sin in Heaven and on the New Earth?

No.

 

 

Thanks, that is what I felt also, and in a different thread that seems to be the consensus as well.  Based on this it would seem that the New Heavens and New Earth are then indeed "better" of "superior" to even what God originally created, would you not agree?

 

No.   Because the Bible teaches that death, decay, pain in childbirth, thorns and thistles all came about because of sin.   Death was not hardwired into creation by God.   So what we see in Revelation 21 is a return to what God intended after sin has been removed from the world.

 

So from the standpoint of their not being any death or decay in the renvovated sinless New Earth, it is precisely what God intended for the original earth before Adam brought sin into the world.

 

It needs to be pointed out that salvation history from the time Adam sinned until the New Heavens and New Earth is all about God restoring what was lost when Adam brought sin into the world.   God is restoring everything, both fallen man and a fallen, broken decaying world/universe.

 

 

But by your own words, the New Heavens and New Earth will be different in that sin will not be even a possibility, so God is not just restoring what was lost, but making it even better.  

 

Sin will not be a possibility because it will be eradicated and satan and his followers will be trapped in everlasting destruction.

 

God restores the earth to its original sinlessness with no death or decay.   So it will be what it was BEFORE sin when it is "very good" meaning that it was beyond improvement to begin with.   

[LookingForAnswers]

 

 

 

 

 

Interesting questions, they will require some thought and study.  One quick question on the top, will there be a possibility of sin in Heaven and on the New Earth?

No.

 

 

Thanks, that is what I felt also, and in a different thread that seems to be the consensus as well.  Based on this it would seem that the New Heavens and New Earth are then indeed "better" of "superior" to even what God originally created, would you not agree?

 

No.   Because the Bible teaches that death, decay, pain in childbirth, thorns and thistles all came about because of sin.   Death was not hardwired into creation by God.   So what we see in Revelation 21 is a return to what God intended after sin has been removed from the world.

 

So from the standpoint of their not being any death or decay in the renvovated sinless New Earth, it is precisely what God intended for the original earth before Adam brought sin into the world.

 

It needs to be pointed out that salvation history from the time Adam sinned until the New Heavens and New Earth is all about God restoring what was lost when Adam brought sin into the world.   God is restoring everything, both fallen man and a fallen, broken decaying world/universe.

 

 

But by your own words, the New Heavens and New Earth will be different in that sin will not be even a possibility, so God is not just restoring what was lost, but making it even better.  

 

Sin will not be a possibility because it will be eradicated and satan and his followers will be trapped in everlasting destruction.

 

God restores the earth to its original sinlessness with no death or decay.   So it will be what it was BEFORE sin when it is "very good" meaning that it was beyond improvement to begin with.   

 

 

It will not be the same as it was before, there will be something missing, the possibility of sin will be missing, thus it will be improved.  "Very good' does not have to mean beyond improvement.

[Guest shiloh357]

 

 

It will not be the same as it was before, there will be something missing, the possibility of sin will be missing, thus it will be improved.  "Very good' does not have to mean beyond improvement.

 

 

You are trying to skirt around the point.   The point is that when sin is eradicated there will be no death, period. The lack of a possibilituy of sin isn't because God created it better than He did the first time.  The lack of any possibility of sin is because the source of sin has been destroyed.

 

My point is that the sinlessness of the NH and NE will be the same, thus returning the earth to previous pre-sin conditions that existed when the earth was created.  Those conditions include the fact there was no death of either man or beast.  

 

If you are going to address the OP, you need to address the substance of what was provided there. 

 

And yes, "very good" in Hebrew does carry the connotation of absolutely good with no possible improvement.  God doesn't do things any other way.  There is no sliding scale of "good" with God.  He is absolutely good and perfect and everything He does reflects that aspect of his nature.  So when God said in the strongest way possible how good creation was, it means that He didn't need to add anything to the perfect world He created.

[LookingForAnswers]

 

 

 

It will not be the same as it was before, there will be something missing, the possibility of sin will be missing, thus it will be improved.  "Very good' does not have to mean beyond improvement.

 

 

You are trying to skirt around the point.   The point is that when sin is eradicated there will be no death, period. The lack of a possibilituy of sin isn't because God created it better than He did the first time.  The lack of any possibility of sin is because the source of sin has been destroyed.

 

My point is that the sinlessness of the NH and NE will be the same, thus returning the earth to previous pre-sin conditions that existed when the earth was created.  Those conditions include the fact there was no death of either man or beast.  

 

If you are going to address the OP, you need to address the substance of what was provided there. 

 

And yes, "very good" in Hebrew does carry the connotation of absolutely good with no possible improvement.  God doesn't do things any other way.  There is no sliding scale of "good" with God.  He is absolutely good and perfect and everything He does reflects that aspect of his nature.  So when God said in the strongest way possible how good creation was, it means that He didn't need to add anything to the perfect world He created.

 

 

True, God does not need to add anything, but it does seem that there is something that will be taken away, thus making it even better.   And no, the NE and NH will not be the same, they will be lacking something that made our world what it is today

[Guest shiloh357]

 

 

 

 

It will not be the same as it was before, there will be something missing, the possibility of sin will be missing, thus it will be improved.  "Very good' does not have to mean beyond improvement.

 

 

You are trying to skirt around the point.   The point is that when sin is eradicated there will be no death, period. The lack of a possibilituy of sin isn't because God created it better than He did the first time.  The lack of any possibility of sin is because the source of sin has been destroyed.

 

My point is that the sinlessness of the NH and NE will be the same, thus returning the earth to previous pre-sin conditions that existed when the earth was created.  Those conditions include the fact there was no death of either man or beast.  

 

If you are going to address the OP, you need to address the substance of what was provided there. 

 

And yes, "very good" in Hebrew does carry the connotation of absolutely good with no possible improvement.  God doesn't do things any other way.  There is no sliding scale of "good" with God.  He is absolutely good and perfect and everything He does reflects that aspect of his nature.  So when God said in the strongest way possible how good creation was, it means that He didn't need to add anything to the perfect world He created.

 

 

True, God does not need to add anything, but it does seem that there is something that will be taken away, thus making it even better.   And no, the NE and NH will not be the same, they will be lacking something that made our world what it is today

 

It will be same in terms of no death, no sin and no decay.   There was no death, no sin and no decay in eiether animal, or human life.   Nothing that God did not engineer into the first world will be in the NE.

 

So this attempt to parse over the "possibility of sin" is just an lame attempt at skirting around the substance of the OP.

 

The bottom line is that the NH and NE reveal that the OEC claim that the death of animals over millions of years is a false claim.

[GoldenEagle]

 

It is not in the Bible?Then I do not believe it.

 

Last week the Saints beat the Eagles in a football game.  that is not in the bible, do you then refuse to believe it? 

 

 

Nobody is talking about a football game. We are discussing OEC, New Heaven, New Earth, etc.

I believe Bo is saying she believes the literal account of Genesis. Is this the case Bo?

[missmuffet]

 

It is not in the Bible?Then I do not believe it.

 

Last week the Saints beat the Eagles in a football game.  that is not in the bible, do you then refuse to believe it? 

 

I am talking about Biblical issues not football.

[missmuffet]

 

 

It is not in the Bible?Then I do not believe it.

 

Last week the Saints beat the Eagles in a football game.  that is not in the bible, do you then refuse to believe it? 

 

 

Nobody is talking about a football game. We are discussing OEC, New Heaven, New Earth, etc.

I believe Bo is saying she believes the literal account of Genesis. Is this the case Bo?

 

Yes GE 

[Guest DRS81]

I find it curious that it talks about a "new Heaven", as well as a new Earth. Correct me if I'm wrong, Heaven is where God lives, and where God is there can be no sin as God is holy. So shouldn't Heaven, by definition, be perfect as Heaven will not be defiled by sin? So why make a new Heaven? Seems redundant.

 

I think it has to do with new resurrected bodies and rewards at the Bema seat.

The first heaven delt with salvation through a fallen world.

The new heaven consists of God's will being complete through rewards and resurrected bodies.

New earth means what it means, that satan will be cast into the lake of fire and the new earth will be without sin.

[missmuffet]

 

 

Old Earth Creationism and the New Heavens and New Earth

 

One major tenet or belief of OEC is the belief not only that the earth is old in terms of millions or even billions of years as science purports, but also that physical death pre-dates the sin of Adam.

 

OEC proponents like Norm Geisler assert that Adam’s sin only brought about the spiritual death of mankind.  His contention is true that Romans 5:12-21 only speaks of the sin bringing about separation (spiritual death) of man from God.   Man died spiritually in the Garden of Eden, but death of animal life predates the events spoken of in Genesis 3.

 

The problem for us then is what exactly God defines as, “good.”   

 

Now let’s just assume for a minute that OEC is correct.  In Genesis 1:31 it says that God looked upon all that He had created for the last some 4.5 billions years, looked upon all of the death and decay in the world He had made and declared it to be “Tov Meod”  (very good) Tov Meod is an emphatic statement.  It refers to a level of “goodness” that can’t be improved upon; it is as good as it is gets.  

 

So God who engineered death and decay into His creation declares that the earth is as good as it can ever be.  God can’t be in error and He can’t create imperfection because there is no imperfection in Him.   So based on Genesis 1:31, a world that has billions of years of death and decay BEFORE sin was in the earth, was in a state of perfection.

 

I find it curious that it talks about a "new Heaven", as well as a new Earth. Correct me if I'm wrong, Heaven is where God lives, and where God is there can be no sin as God is holy. So shouldn't Heaven, by definition, be perfect as Heaven will not be defiled by sin? So why make a new Heaven? Seems redundant. 

 

I have also always assumed that Heaven was controlled by different laws than the natural world, instead of natural law we would be dealing with supernatural/spiritual law. So I am wondering if perhaps the laws of the new Earth will be switched with the laws that govern Heaven? 

 

You see, in the natural world energy cannot be created or destroyed, nor can a system be 100% efficient with energy, which is related to the second law of thermodynamics - decay. My point is maybe, given the constraints of natural law, physical death is necessarily "Tov Meod" insofar as natural law will allow (assume a creature learned to live virtually forever, it still could not live forever as the universe's energy slowly becomes useless as entropy increases) - to God it was Tov Meod for the purpose he designated to the world. Just an idea I had. 

 

Also, whenever I read Genesis, God clearly states to Adam that the "day" you eat from the tree is the "day" you die. I think it is self explanatory that Adam didn't physically die that day, so I am curious as to your take on that passage in relation to the OP. 

 

From what I have read in the Bible we will be helping God govern that New Earth.