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OEC and The New Heavens and New Earth


Guest shiloh357

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Old Earth Creationism and the New Heavens and New Earth

 

One major tenet or belief of OEC is the belief not only that the earth is old in terms of millions or even billions of years as science purports, but also that physical death pre-dates the sin of Adam.

 

OEC proponents like Norm Geisler assert that Adam’s sin only brought about the spiritual death of mankind.  His contention is true that Romans 5:12-21 only speaks of the sin bringing about separation (spiritual death) of man from God.   Man died spiritually in the Garden of Eden, but death of animal life predates the events spoken of in Genesis 3.

 

The problem for us then is what exactly God defines as, “good.”   

 

Now let’s just assume for a minute that OEC is correct.  In Genesis 1:31 it says that God looked upon all that He had created for the last some 4.5 billions years, looked upon all of the death and decay in the world He had made and declared it to be “Tov Meod”  (very good) Tov Meod is an emphatic statement.  It refers to a level of “goodness” that can’t be improved upon; it is as good as it is gets.  

 

So God who engineered death and decay into His creation declares that the earth is as good as it can ever be.  God can’t be in error and He can’t create imperfection because there is no imperfection in Him.   So based on Genesis 1:31, a world that has billions of years of death and decay BEFORE sin was in the earth, was in a state of perfection.

 

Now fast forward to the end of the age in the book of Revelation chapters 21 and 22.  

 

And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.  Rev 21:1-5

 

And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb. In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him: Rev 22:1-3

 

Compare this with the following end times description offered by Isaiah: 

 

The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them. And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox. And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea. Isa 11:6-9

 

For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind. But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy. And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying. There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed. And they shall build houses, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and eat the fruit of them. They shall not build, and another inhabit; they shall not plant, and another eat: for as the days of a tree are the days of my people, and mine elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands. They shall not labour in vain, nor bring forth for trouble; for they are the seed of the blessed of the LORD, and their offspring with them. And it shall come to pass, that before they call, I will answer; and while they are yet speaking, I will hear. The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust shall be the serpent's meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the LORD.

Isa 65:17-25

 

Notice that in connection with Christ’s reign in the New Heavens and New Earth  the Bible speaks of no more curse, pain, death, tears, and this includes the animal kingdom according to the passages listed above all of which refer to the same time period.

 

All of this occurs AFTER sin is eradicated from the world.  We can know what the original earth was like before sin by looking at what the world will be like after sin is gone.  

 

Yet the OEC would have us believe that the death and decay, the predator/prey relationship that existed between animals all of that was part of what God called “very good.”  

 

So if that is what the world was like prior to sin, how come we don’t get this same picture of the earth after sin is eradicated?   Why would God need to renovate the earth and get of all death of both man and beast if that was what He considered good and perfect to begin with?    Why is sin connected to the physical death of both man and beast in terms of eschatology, but not connected to them relevant to their original creation?

 

Clearly if death and decay were so good that God felt He had created the best possible world for man to live in, it is hard to explain how God could have made a better world with no death of any man or animal.   Is the world with death and decay better than the one made with no death of any kind of animal or human being?   If the latter is better, than it stands to reason, it would have to have been at least as good as the original, and that means the original earth had no death either.   The OEC view that death and decay within the created order existed prior to man’s sin doesn’t hold water, theologically  because death and decay among the animals is connected to  sin in Revelation 21.

 

Difficult problem!!!

 

I disagree with your assessment of tov (good) as "perfect' in the sense we mean it. I'll make two defenses, one of which is bound to annoy everyone.  "Good" in ancient times would not have mean merely "morally" good.  It mean something was "appropriate" or "useful". When God said of each stage in creation that something was "good", He was asserting that one of the two problems at the beginning of Creation had been fixed.  "The earth was formless and void."  That is, the earth was uninhabitable and uninhabited.  Days 1-3 fix the first problem (we have the habitable spheres of the heavens, then sky and water, then earth).  Days 4- 6 deal with the problem of void.  God fills the heavens with luminaries, the sky and sea with birds and fish, and earth with man and animal.  God was not implying that things were perfect, without need of improvement.  Indeed, if it were, why set man to "keep his garden".  A perfect garden doesn't need to be "kept"....it just goes on being "perfect".

 

My second defense is more radical yet not less Biblical.  IN 1 Cor. 15 (40?) Paul talks of two types of body, one natural and one spiritual.  The natural body seems to be liable to corruption (i.e. decay) while the spiritual does not.  Yet the scriptural passage he quotes from when speaking of the natural body comes  before the fall--"the first man Adam became a living being"; the last Adam a life-giving spirit."  We have natural man vs. spiritual man; but natural man is not here "fallen man".

 

I take from this that there was all along a 2nd stage for Adam and Eve to ascend to.  If we must use adjectives such as "good" and "perfect" then I suggest we describe the paradise in which Adam and Eve lived as good, but not perfect...  God had other plans.

 

clb

 

 

Oh, i presume the chief problem is the idea of animals and other sentient beings suffering.  After all, man was permitted to eat fruit, and animals had to eat something; but no one laments the destruction of grass or plumbs.  Thus there was always "decay" of some sort.

 

So really, it is the notion of sentient creatures dying before the fall that troubles us, right?

Edited by ConnorLiamBrown
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Blessings Everyone!

     Bopeep,I think we all know exactly what you meant & I am with you Sister...if its not in the Bible it is irrelevant & I (we)don't believe it....and I do believe brother shiloh reads Hebrew & from what I have understood in researching the definition of "Tov Meod"it is far beyond meaning "appropriate" it is better described as "could not get any better"& I really like shilohs conclusions.......God says it was 6 days ,it was 6 days-how can anyone put any limitations on the One who created it ALL?This seems to be the whole basis of the contraversy for OEC ......

       This discussion just seems to go round & round & round,doesn't it?

                                                                                                                      With love in Christ-Kwik

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Blessings Everyone!

     Bopeep,I think we all know exactly what you meant & I am with you Sister...if its not in the Bible it is irrelevant & I (we)don't believe it....and I do believe brother shiloh reads Hebrew & from what I have understood in researching the definition of "Tov Meod"it is far beyond meaning "appropriate" it is better described as "could not get any better"& I really like shilohs conclusions.......God says it was 6 days ,it was 6 days-how can anyone put any limitations on the One who created it ALL?This seems to be the whole basis of the contraversy for OEC ......

       This discussion just seems to go round & round & round,doesn't it?

                                                                                                                      With love in Christ-Kwik

Hmmm....well there a good many assumptions here.

 

"Could not get any better...."  

 

Well, that creation ended up going pretty bad in the end, if you recall.  So, if there is nothing better than a state of paradise in which it always remains possible to fall (for that is as good as it gets), then guess what, heaven probably won't last long.  Please deal with this: you just said that creation "could not get any better" (i.e. the best).  And in that creation it was possible to fall........thus heaven (which can't get any better than the best) also includes this possibility.

 

"How can anyone put any limitations on the One who created it all?"  

 

WE AREN"T!  We are not saying God "couldn't have done it in 6 days"!  We are merely saying that that is not the point of the creation narrative!!

 

Please stop making this a question about who reveres God and who doesn't.

 

I could easily turn this around on you and say, "Who are you to say that God could not make allusions to the culture of that time?  Huh? Who are you to say that because you see no obvious allusions, God still placed them there, and others see them?  Who are you to say that, because it shows 6 literal days, God couldn't have made a subtle comparison to the culture of His people?"

 

Look, my main point is this: please stop accusing OEarthers of depreciating the Bible.  Accuse us of misinterpreting it, fine.  But this is not a debate between those who revere it and those who do not; certainly not between those who love Christ and those who don't.

 

And is Shiloh the AUTHORITY on ancient Hebrew? Really? No doubt he/she knows his stuff (I've appreciated many of his posts).....but definitive?

 

And finally, a question (and I confess, tiredly, that I have been ranting in this post)..........

 

Are most of the servants and whatever else this forum considers to be "officials" 6th day creationists?   If so, that greatly changes things for me. I will back off of this topic.

 

clb

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Blessings to you Conner,

     Quite on the defensive I would say,needlessly.....I never said YOU put any limitations on God,I said ,"how can anyone" ,,,,know this,if I meant to say that I thought you did ,then I would have addressed you specifically as I always address any person that I would like to pose a question to.....I don't post quotes,I don't insinuate & I don't assume .......I don't think I have ever read any of your posts before this one or ever even saw your name before today,I have no clue what you do or don't believe in and only found a different definition of "Tov Meov" than you did & I said it,you were the furthest thing from my mind other than that so relax & take off your boxing gloves-lol

      If God said that in a millimeter of a second He created the sun,I believe it & I believe there is not anything that God is not able to do,anything short of that would be limiting the Great I Am in my eyes.......what does what I believe have to do with you?God bless you and I hope you realize that I ,least of all.....questions who reveres God & who does not,that,my friend ,is between you & Him.

       I am curious though,who is "we"....... have a beautiful evening & go in peace......praise & Glory to God

                                                                                                                                  With love,in Christ -Kwik

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Guest shiloh357

 

 

I find it curious that it talks about a "new Heaven", as well as a new Earth. Correct me if I'm wrong, Heaven is where God lives, and where God is there can be no sin as God is holy. So shouldn't Heaven, by definition, be perfect as Heaven will not be defiled by sin? So why make a new Heaven? Seems redundant. 

The "New Heavens" being referred to Revelation 21 is referring to the celestial heavens, not the heaven we think of where God lives.   The new Heavens and New Earth refer to a renovation of the entire physical universe that has been touched by sin.   All sin and all unbelievers will be finally and forever eradicated from the earth and the earth will be renovated along with the physical "heavens."

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Guest shiloh357

 

Difficult problem!!!

 

 

Not if you believe the Bible.  But you are trying to do and end run around the clear and plain statements of Scripture, then yes then you will encounter problems.

 

I disagree with your assessment of tov (good) as "perfect' in the sense we mean it. I'll make two defenses, one of which is bound to annoy everyone.  "Good" in ancient times would not have mean merely "morally" good.  It mean something was "appropriate" or "useful". When God said of each stage in creation that something was "good", He was asserting that one of the two problems at the beginning of Creation had been fixed.  "The earth was formless and void."  That is, the earth was uninhabitable and uninhabited.  Days 1-3 fix the first problem (we have the habitable spheres of the heavens, then sky and water, then earth).  Days 4- 6 deal with the problem of void.  God fills the heavens with luminaries, the sky and sea with birds and fish, and earth with man and animal.  

All of that is fine and good, but I am referring to the phrase, "tov meod" and in Hebrew it is an emphatic phrase that carries the connotation of perfection.  It refers to everything being exactly as God designed it to be, thus to be "perfect" from a Hebraic mindset.  

 

 

God was not implying that things were perfect, without need of improvement.  Indeed, if it were, why set man to "keep his garden".A perfect garden doesn't need to be "kept"....it just goes on being "perfect".

 

God desgined man to work and God made man a steward of the garden.  I don't know what "keeping" the garden at that time would have looked like, as there were no weeds or pests to contend with, but God intended man to take care of it and look after it.  That doesn't have any bearing on whether or not it is perfect. 

 

In Hebew thought, "perfection" means that something is doing what it was created or designed to do.  It doesn't refer to our more Greek concep of asthetics that we attach to the word.  The earth was perfect or else God would not have stopped creating.  It was "tov meod"   ("as good as it is gets).

 

My second defense is more radical yet not less Biblical.  IN 1 Cor. 15 (40?) Paul talks of two types of body, one natural and one spiritual.  The natural body seems to be liable to corruption (i.e. decay) while the spiritual does not.  Yet the scriptural passage he quotes from when speaking of the natural body comes  before the fall--"the first man Adam became a living being"; the last Adam a life-giving spirit."  We have natural man vs. spiritual man; but natural man is not here "fallen man".

 

I take from this that there was all along a 2nd stage for Adam and Eve to ascend to.  If we must use adjectives such as "good" and "perfect" then I suggest we describe the paradise in which Adam and Eve lived as good, but not perfect...  God had other plans.

 

clb

 

That is exegetical nonsense.  Sin corrupted man physically and spiritually.   Man is born with a dead spirit that is separated from God.  To say that our spirit is not subject to effects of sin is simply not biblical and it shows that you are misapply the passage from I Corinthians 15.   Paul was comparing Adam with Jesus, hencse he is calling Jesus "the last Adam."   This is not about a comparison between the body and spirit.

 

 

 

 

Oh, i presume the chief problem is the idea of animals and other sentient beings suffering.  After all, man was permitted to eat fruit, and animals had to eat something; but no one laments the destruction of grass or plumbs.  Thus there was always "decay" of some sort.

 

When we say that there was no "death" we are talking about creatures in whom there is the breath of life.  There was no death of either man or beast.   Fruits and vegitables that man was allowed to eat are considered biologically, "alive."  but they are not living beings or creatures. 

 

 

So really, it is the notion of sentient creatures dying before the fall that troubles us, right?

 

It doesn't trouble me because I believe the Bible and am not impressed with, or beholden to those who demand that death and decay were part of life before the fall.   I am operating from the position that the Bible really is God's Word and I don't have to modify anything the Bible says to force it to accomodate science.

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The Whole Earth Is Full Of His Glory

 

And one cried unto another, and said, Holy, holy, holy, is the LORD of hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory. Isaiah 6:3

 

~

 

One quick question on the top, will there be a possibility of sin in Heaven and on the New Earth?

 

~

 

Sin

 

But he that sinneth against me wrongeth his own soul: all they that hate me love death. Proverbs 8:36

 

Plays Outside

 

I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie. Revelation 22:13-15

 

The City Where

 

And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him: And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads. Revelation 22:3-4

 

Jesus

 

And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful. Revelation 21:4-5

 

Rules

 

The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust shall be the serpent's meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the LORD. Isaiah 65:25

 

~

 

Beloved I Pray This Helps

 

I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star. And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely. Revelation 22:16-17

 

Love, Joe

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It is not in the Bible? Then I do not believe it.

 

Last week the Saints beat the Eagles in a football game.  that is not in the bible, do you then refuse to believe it? 

 

~

 

I Refuse

 

For we are strangers before you, and foreigners, as all our fathers were. Our days on the earth are as a shadow, and there is no remaining. 1 Chronicles 29:15 (WEB)

 

To Believe Any Football Game

 

Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil. Ecclesiastes 12:13-14

 

Compares To The Loss Of Even One Soul To Perdition

 

For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul? Matthew 16:26

 

Beloved, Wouldn't

 

A man to whom God hath given riches, wealth, and honour, so that he wanteth nothing for his soul of all that he desireth, yet God giveth him not power to eat thereof, but a stranger eateth it: this is vanity, and it is an evil disease. Ecclesiastes 6:2

 

You Agree

 

And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: Hebrews 9:27

 

Love, Joe

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Old Earth Creationism and the New Heavens and New Earth

 

One major tenet or belief of OEC is the belief not only that the earth is old in terms of millions or even billions of years as science purports, but also that physical death pre-dates the sin of Adam.

 

OEC proponents like Norm Geisler assert that Adam’s sin only brought about the spiritual death of mankind.  His contention is true that Romans 5:12-21 only speaks of the sin bringing about separation (spiritual death) of man from God.   Man died spiritually in the Garden of Eden, but death of animal life predates the events spoken of in Genesis 3.

 

The problem for us then is what exactly God defines as, “good.”   

 

Now let’s just assume for a minute that OEC is correct.  In Genesis 1:31 it says that God looked upon all that He had created for the last some 4.5 billions years, looked upon all of the death and decay in the world He had made and declared it to be “Tov Meod”  (very good) Tov Meod is an emphatic statement.  It refers to a level of “goodness” that can’t be improved upon; it is as good as it is gets.  

 

So God who engineered death and decay into His creation declares that the earth is as good as it can ever be.  God can’t be in error and He can’t create imperfection because there is no imperfection in Him.   So based on Genesis 1:31, a world that has billions of years of death and decay BEFORE sin was in the earth, was in a state of perfection.

 

Now fast forward to the end of the age in the book of Revelation chapters 21 and 22.  

 

And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.  Rev 21:1-5

 

And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb. In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him: Rev 22:1-3

 

Compare this with the following end times description offered by Isaiah: 

 

The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them. And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox. And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea. Isa 11:6-9

 

For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind. But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy. And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying. There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed. And they shall build houses, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and eat the fruit of them. They shall not build, and another inhabit; they shall not plant, and another eat: for as the days of a tree are the days of my people, and mine elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands. They shall not labour in vain, nor bring forth for trouble; for they are the seed of the blessed of the LORD, and their offspring with them. And it shall come to pass, that before they call, I will answer; and while they are yet speaking, I will hear. The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust shall be the serpent's meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the LORD.

Isa 65:17-25

 

Notice that in connection with Christ’s reign in the New Heavens and New Earth  the Bible speaks of no more curse, pain, death, tears, and this includes the animal kingdom according to the passages listed above all of which refer to the same time period.

 

All of this occurs AFTER sin is eradicated from the world.  We can know what the original earth was like before sin by looking at what the world will be like after sin is gone.  

 

Yet the OEC would have us believe that the death and decay, the predator/prey relationship that existed between animals all of that was part of what God called “very good.”  

 

So if that is what the world was like prior to sin, how come we don’t get this same picture of the earth after sin is eradicated?   Why would God need to renovate the earth and get of all death of both man and beast if that was what He considered good and perfect to begin with?    Why is sin connected to the physical death of both man and beast in terms of eschatology, but not connected to them relevant to their original creation?

 

Clearly if death and decay were so good that God felt He had created the best possible world for man to live in, it is hard to explain how God could have made a better world with no death of any man or animal.   Is the world with death and decay better than the one made with no death of any kind of animal or human being?   If the latter is better, than it stands to reason, it would have to have been at least as good as the original, and that means the original earth had no death either.   The OEC view that death and decay within the created order existed prior to man’s sin doesn’t hold water, theologically  because death and decay among the animals is connected to  sin in Revelation 21.

 

Some OEC positions believe that Adam was not the first being to appear on the Earth.  Some believe, through various verses in the Old Testament that Lucifer was governing in the Garden of Eden before he led an angelic rebellion.  As a result of the angels sinning, G-d judged the Earth.  There was no redemption plan for the angels, or if other beings existed, they too were not created in the image of G-d.  Therefore, because of the judgment, death and decay did exist before.  They believe the six days of creation are G-d calling forth what already existed, then commencing with the act of creating animals and man, beginning with Day 5, for those creatures who now had the "breath of life" in them.

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Guest shiloh357

 

Some OEC positions believe that Adam was not the first being to appear on the Earth.  Some believe, through various verses in the Old Testament that Lucifer was governing in the Garden of Eden before he led an angelic rebellion.  As a result of the angels sinning, G-d judged the Earth.  There was no redemption plan for the angels, or if other beings existed, they too were not created in the image of G-d.  Therefore, because of the judgment, death and decay did exist before.  They believe the six days of creation are G-d calling forth what already existed, then commencing with the act of creating animals and man, beginning with Day 5, for those creatures who now had the "breath of life" in them.

 

You are leaving out one very important tenet of the Gap Theory and that is there was a pre-adamite race of human beings, corrupted by the fallen angels.   That part keeps getting left out.

 

I think the reason that some proponents of the Gap Theory omit that part of the theory is that it forces them to confront the theological problems of why God didn't provide a plan of redemption for those human beings, and it also means that sin existed on the earth prior to Adam, which also contradicts the Bible's claim that sin didn't exist in the earth prior to Adam's fall.

 

The Bible knows of no other human beings prior to Adam.

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