OEC and The New Heavens and New Earth

[Shar]

The theological devastation of a pre-adamic race lies in The de-construction of

what God has written about His Character in this fashion:

Gen 1:31

31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very

good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

KJV

A concluding factor to the review of God in His creative acts- in which

very good cannot be built upon very bad. God did not build Life upon death

and judgment. For The Holiness of God does not allow for this in Scripture

so defined in this passage-

Jude 23

23 And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire;

hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.

KJV

as the Scripture indicates God's Holiness hates that which was next to sin being

the body we are (1st) born-> and have sinned in and also the world in which the sin

reigned in death till Christ's finished work. Now all the second born of Spirit

await the new body and new heaven and new earth wherein eternity dwells and where

sin has never been nor considered! Thus riveting us to this truth in His Word

Matt 20:16

16 So the last shall be first, and the first last:

for many be called, but few chosen.

KJV

A scholar may only conclude the last not being death and hell now swallowed up but the

new heaven and earth being the eternal state 'IS' the last of that which 'IS' written;

Therefore a heaven and earth in the first begin of which we are-> must also be of this

perfection. The first being the last and the last first... verifying The 'Very Good'

of God's descriptive synopsis of all He had made.

Leaving sadly the only and last resolve of in this:

Gen 2:17

17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil,

thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou

eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

KJV

Rom 5:12-14

12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world,

and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for

that all have sinned: 13 (For until the law sin was in

the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even

over them that had not sinned after the similitude of

Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that

was to come.

KJV

for any death preexistent to the sin of Adam makes God appear to be a liar- God Forbids!

Love, Steven

Carefully read the referenced scriptures and the meaning of the Hebrew words, particularly the difference in the meaning for "created" and "made" in Ge. 1.  "Created" means the creative process, "made" does not.  Made is more a calling forth, appoint or gather what already exists.

 

You rebuttal is weak.  It does not address the numerous references in the Bible that can support this possibility.  I just see random quoting of scripture.

[LookingForAnswers]

I ask this question with all honesty, can someone translate what Enoob is saying. Reading his post make zero sense to me. I cannot make heads or tails out of them

[enoob57]

I have to do it through plain text mode... due to my equipment's architecture!

Go to the bottom box and click as to add a comment. See the switch top left? It

is the plain text mode click it. Now you notice the screen of rich text format

greys and no click choice exists to return just click the switch again to return

to rich text formatting, but don't as I want you to click the quote function of

the post above and review the formatting of plain text... it will take time to

get it all under your belt as there is many commands to use in this graphic

interface. But simply to do as you have asked simply copy the command lines

as shown then hit preview post to see it in a Worthy manner

that's it!

It gets a little confusing in multiple quotes but examine the format and pm anytime

that I may improve your ability to communicate the God given Truth within you!

Love, Steven

[Guest shiloh357]

 John 1:1 - In the beginning, (Gk. arche = first in order, time and place) was the Word and the Word was G-d….all things were made by Him. 

 

Ge.1:1 – In the beginning, (He. reshiyth = first in order, time and place), G-d created the heavens and the earth.  The word for heavens, “shameh – shamayim” means, the higher realm where the celestial bodies revolve, G-d’s abode and sky.  The word “and” is used many times in Ge. 1-2, to separate different acts of G-d.  The “and” of verse 1:2 shows the work of verse 2 is entirely independent of the work in verse 1.  

 

 

 

(My response): The problem here is that Gen. 1:1 doesn’t refer to a creative act prior to verse 2.   You are exactly correct in saying that the word “and” makes Gen. 1:1 completely independent from verse 2, but not for the reasons you think.  

 

The and is a “vav’ disjunctive in Hebrew because it is followed by a nount (haeretz).  That means that it is in no way a continuation of thought expressed in verse 1.  Verse 1 is nothing more than a synopsis, an introductory sentence.   It is expanded on by vv. 2-31.

 

 

 

 

  Job 38:7 – The stars and angels were created before the earth.  Previously, G-d asks Job, “where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth?  …. “when the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of G-d shouted for joy?  “All the sons of G-d”.  This included Lucifer being present as one of the sons of G-d and before his fall.

 

The word “stars” (He. kowkab) means a blazing star. Actual suns.  The phrase “sons of G-d” is often referred to in scriptures as angels. See Job 1:6 & 2:1.  Psalm 19, speaks of how creation speaks, sings and declares.

 

Right but the problem is that what you have in Job is poetry and it uses “morning stars” and “angels” in a synonymous parallel where the first thought is restated in different words. The morning stars are not actual physical stars, they are angels being  referred to in a poetic or symbolic way.

 

 

 

  G-d did not create the earth formless and void.  Is.45:18 states “…G-d made the earth not void (empty), but to be inhabited.

 

 

Ge: 1:2 And the earth was formless and void.  The word “was (He., “hayah”) means to become, come to pass.  Meaning the earth became formless and void.  The word “formless and void” (He. tohu va bohu) means waste and empty.  Something happened to make the earth go from originally created complete to waste and empty.  We have already disagreed over the Hebrew, but I will have to go with the most reliable translations of the Bible, where hundreds of scholars agreed that “was” can mean became in this passage.

 

The word “ha-ya” in Gen. 1:2 CANNOT be translated “became.”   It cannot because the “vav” at the beginning of the verse is followed by a noun and I said earlier this makes it a vav disjunctive. It is the beginning of an entirely new line of thought indepdent of verse one.    Only if the “vav” were followed by a verb could ha-ya be translated as “became.”   “Was” is the ONLY correct tranlsation of ha-ya for Gen. 1:2

[enoob57]

Carefully read the referenced scriptures and the meaning of the Hebrew words, particularly the difference in the meaning for "created" and "made" in Ge. 1.  "Created" means the creative process, "made" does not.  Made is more a calling forth, appoint or gather what already exists.

 

You rebuttal is weak.  It does not address the numerous references in the Bible that can support this possibility.  I just see random quoting of scripture.

I do not need to study the minute of the passage as the overall is so clearly seen!

I will say this one time more and then the ball is squarely in your court of decision

'God does not build upon death as the evolutionary module claims!!!'

The truth of God simply 'IS' and this is God's Truth

Job 34:21-23

21 For his eyes are upon the ways of man, and he seeth all his goings.

22 There is no darkness, nor shadow of death, where the workers of

iniquity may hide themselves. 23 For he will not lay upon man more

than right; that he should enter into judgment with God.

KJV

1 John 1:5

5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto

you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.

KJV

I am grateful to be seen as weak by one that claims death to be the creative factor of

God's use... For I am given in promise by His Word in that weakness I will be made strong!

Love, Steven

[Guest shiloh357]

  Lucifer and angels

 

Angels created before man and before the earth.

Angels have rank and order.  They can be messengers, protect His servants, serve before the throne, do the will of G-d, lead out before G-d’s presence, conduct warfare, deliver judgment, deliver G-d’s people, participate in worship, have positions of authority, protect and rule nations.

 

 For example, Daniel 12:1.  Michael is called the great prince and ruler who protects and stands for the people – Israel.

There are different types of angels – archangels, cherubs, seraphim, princes, rulers, etc.

 

Lucifer was in the Garden of Eden before the Fall with a possible social system that existed before our current social system.

 

Ezekiel 28:11-15.  This passage is exclusively talking about an anointed cherub and not a mere man.  Words in this passage such as:  He was the model of perfection, full of wisdom and beauty.  He was in the Garden of Eden.  Every precious stone adorned him.  His settings and crown were of gold.  He was anointed as the Guardian Cherub, he was on the Holy Mountain of G-d, and he was blameless in his ways from the day he was created. (NO MAN fits that description)

 

He was anointed, which meant he was a king.  Throughout the Bible, kings are anointed.  G-d set the Cherub over the Earth, in the Garden of Eden, to protect, overshadow it and rule it.

 

Ezekiel 28:15-19…until wickedness was found in him, filled with violence and he sinned.  So, G-d drove him out from the Mountain of G-d, and expelled “you, O Guardian Cherub”. (Jesus even says to his disciples he saw Satan falling from Heaven in Lk. 10:18).  His heart became proud on account of his beauty and his wisdom became corrupted because of his splendor.  “So, I threw you to the earth and made you a spectacle before kings.  By his many sins and dishonest trade, he desecrated his sanctuaries (angels engage in worship) the symbolism of him losing his glory, and being assigned to Hell fire.  “All who knew you among the peoples shall be appalled at you; you shall be terrors, and you will not be forever.”

 

Lucifer ruled a social system here on Earth, in the Garden of Eden, before Adam.  This social system had a structure, trade, kings, and a people.  However, these peoples were not created in the image of G-d.  Many sages of Judaism, who studied the Word many centuries before us, and the Talmud discuss the existence of beings living before Adam.  They are described as human in shape and intelligence, but lacking the neshama “soul” to make them human.

 

This great sin, wickedness and rebellion resulted in judgment from G-d with a devastating flood, different from Noah’s flood.  I will contrast the two floods in the next post.  Will try to post on Sunday.

 

A Previous Social System - 2 Pe.3:5 “But they are ignorant, and forget that long ago by G-ds word the heavens existed and the earth was formed out of water and by water.  By these waters also the world (social system) of that time was deluged and perished (completely destroyed).

 

By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the Day of Judgment and destruction of ungodly men. 

 

Here we see there was a previous world system that completely perished and the present heavens and earth are different.

 

The prophets of the O.T. often spoke of situations that have a “Near – Far” implication.  Such as Isaiah has numerous references to Antiochus Epiphanies when he set up the desolation of Abomination in the temple, before the Maccabees  revolted and claimed it back, as well as to the future AntiChrist, who will do the same.  The following in Jeremiah could have that kind of implication.

 

Je. 4:23-26 “I beheld the earth and, lo. It was without form and void; and the heavens and they had no light.  I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they quaked, and all the hills were shaken.  I beheld, and, lo, there was no man, and all the birds fled.  I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness, and all the cities were broken down at the presence of the L-rd, and by His fierce anger”.

 

This present earth has NEVER had man completely gone.  It never will.  However, here there is a reference that “there was no man (He. “ayin” – to not exist).  There were animals, vegetation, and cities mentioned, but all were destroyed at G-d’s fierce anger.  These events occurred; they are not indicated as a possible future event, because man will continue to exist on this earth after G-d’s wrath is poured out during the end times.  This seems indicative of G-d’s judgment on a prior social system on earth before Adam. 

 

My Resonse:

 

1. The Bible knows of no “social system among the angels.”   You are making a lot of assumptions for which there is no biblical claim.   Angels do not relate to each other socially.   Michael is called a prince, ruler and archangel.  So those probably synonymous terms and not an actual ranking system.
2. Lucifer was anointed, but that does not mean he was a king. The word anointed doesn’t mean king.  Kings were anointed, but not all people who were anointed by God were kings.   The Bible never refers to Satan as a “king” over the angels or anyone else.  Anointed means that he was specially chosen for a specific task. 
3. In reference to 2 Peter. 3:5, you appear to be trying place the deluge back to the pre-adamite earth, but  Peter is actually referring to Noah’s deluge and calls the earth “the old world” using the same reference in the previous reference to Noah’s deluge in Chapter two.  The evidence is further contained in the context in that Peter is refuting mockers who claim that Jesus isn’t returning and all things continue as they always have.  But Peter makes the point that all things are not as they always have been, and he refereces Noah’s deluge,  the old world that was formed out of the (Gk. Between) the waters was subject to a great deluge when the people of that day were least expecting it.  It came upon them suddenly took them by surprise.   The coming of the Lord is comparable to that, and so Peter references those people in verse 7 as awaiting judgment.
4. If Peter were referring to men who had no soul, they would not be subject to judgment.  They would have been nothing but animals and I would not rely on the Talmud to interpret the New Testament.  That is another grievous error you are making.
5. Jer. 4:23-26 is not about the earth, but is using hyperbolic references to the state of Judah’s destruction at the hands of the Babylonians.   He is trying to express the level of devestation in the strongest terms he can.   Tohu v’bohu are very strong terms and make the point about the degree of devestation that was heaped upon Judah by the Babylonians.
6. Notice what the rest of Jeremiah says AFTER verse 26 in the same prophecy:

 

For thus hath the LORD said, The whole land shall be desolate; yet will I not make a full end. For this shall the earth mourn, and the heavens above be black: because I have spoken it, I have purposed it, and will not repent, neither will I turn back from it. The whole city shall flee for the noise of the horsemen and bowmen; they shall go into thickets, and climb up upon the rocks: every city shall be forsaken, and not a man dwell therein.

Jer 4:27-29

 

 

It is clear that the prophecy is not describing the earth but is describing the desolation of Judah using imagery drawn from Genesis to communicate just how bad things are at that point in Judah’s history.

[Spock]

I ask this question with all honesty, can someone translate what Enoob is saying. Reading his post make zero sense to me. I cannot make heads or tails out of them

Sorry I can't help you on this one either. (Scratching my head)

[enoob57]

I ask this question with all honesty, can someone translate what Enoob is saying. Reading his post make zero sense to me. I cannot make heads or tails out of them

The very first step out of death into life is in Christ The Lord

John 14:6

6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the

life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

KJV

It is not the world or the people of it that we find life but In His

Word we find the faith to believe unto eternal life...

John 1:1-4

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

2 The same was in the beginning with God.

3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

KJV

Matt 24:35

35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

KJV

When His Word becomes everything toward life and Godliness then you have

God's Word abiding in you of eternal life... He will then begin you on a

journey where His Word will be of more value than your necessary food...

As many times quoted:

'He is no fool who gives up what he cannot keep'

this life for we all die

'to gain what he cannot loose'

eternal life given to

you by God The Lord Jesus

setting the seal of His

Presence within us The

Holy Spirit...

Love, Steven

[Shar]

 

 John 1:1 - In the beginning, (Gk. arche = first in order, time and place) was the Word and the Word was G-d….all things were made by Him. 

 

Ge.1:1 – In the beginning, (He. reshiyth = first in order, time and place), G-d created the heavens and the earth.  The word for heavens, “shameh – shamayim” means, the higher realm where the celestial bodies revolve, G-d’s abode and sky.  The word “and” is used many times in Ge. 1-2, to separate different acts of G-d.  The “and” of verse 1:2 shows the work of verse 2 is entirely independent of the work in verse 1.  

 

 

 

(My response): The problem here is that Gen. 1:1 doesn’t refer to a creative act prior to verse 2.   You are exactly correct in saying that the word “and” makes Gen. 1:1 completely independent from verse 2, but not for the reasons you think.  

 

The and is a “vav’ disjunctive in Hebrew because it is followed by a nount (haeretz).  That means that it is in no way a continuation of thought expressed in verse 1.  Verse 1 is nothing more than a synopsis, an introductory sentence.   It is expanded on by vv. 2-31.

 

Not asking to be rude, but can you tell me your source of Hebrew?  You stated you consider yourself qualified to address the Hebrew.  Can you tell me how you qualify?  I read and speak Hebrew, but I would not described myself as an expert.  I must rely on Hebrew scholars and translation experts of the Bible, who reference down to the earliest manuscripts.  My references are from literal translations of the Hebrew Biblical text.  We will have points of translational differences because obviously we are not using the same resources.

 

 

 

 

 

 

  Job 38:7 – The stars and angels were created before the earth.  Previously, G-d asks Job, “where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth?  …. “when the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of G-d shouted for joy?  “All the sons of G-d”.  This included Lucifer being present as one of the sons of G-d and before his fall.

 

The word “stars” (He. kowkab) means a blazing star. Actual suns.  The phrase “sons of G-d” is often referred to in scriptures as angels. See Job 1:6 & 2:1.  Psalm 19, speaks of how creation speaks, sings and declares.

 

Right but the problem is that what you have in Job is poetry and it uses “morning stars” and “angels” in a synonymous parallel where the first thought is restated in different words. The morning stars are not actual physical stars, they are angels being  referred to in a poetic or symbolic way.

 

The actual word, as I referenced, means blazing star.  Words, even if they are sometimes used in poetry do not mean they are necessarily symbolic, but are actual.

 

 

  G-d did not create the earth formless and void.  Is.45:18 states “…G-d made the earth not void (empty), but to be inhabited.

 

 

Ge: 1:2 And the earth was formless and void.  The word “was (He., “hayah”) means to become, come to pass.  Meaning the earth became formless and void.  The word “formless and void” (He. tohu va bohu) means waste and empty.  Something happened to make the earth go from originally created complete to waste and empty.  We have already disagreed over the Hebrew, but I will have to go with the most reliable translations of the Bible, where hundreds of scholars agreed that “was” can mean became in this passage.

 

The word “ha-ya” in Gen. 1:2 CANNOT be translated “became.”   It cannot be cause the “vav” at the beginning of the verse is followed by a noun and I said earlier this makes it a vav disjunctive. It is the beginning of an entirely new line of thought indepdent of verse one.    Only if the “vav” were followed by a verb could ha-ya be translated as “became.”   “Was” is the ONLY correct tranlsation of ha-ya for Gen. 1:2

 

Already stated scholars and bible translators who state it can mean "became".  We have already been through this on the word.

[Guest shiloh357]

Not asking to be rude, but can you tell me your source of Hebrew?  You stated you consider yourself qualified to address the Hebrew.  Can you tell me how you qualify?  I read and speak Hebrew, but I would not described myself as an expert.  I must rely on Hebrew scholars and translation experts of the Bible, who reference down to the earliest manuscripts.  My references are from literal translations of the Hebrew Biblical text.  We will have points of translational differences because obviously we are not using the same resources.

 

I learned Hebrew from both a Rabbi and am also university trained in Hebrew as well. I both read and speak it, as well.  I am still working on fluency in conversational Hebrew as well.   

 

But the fact is that I am working from the Hebrew, not only from translations.

 

Already stated scholars and bible translators who state it can mean "became".  We have already been through this on the word.

 

But there is a differenc between what a word can mean and what it DOES mean in a given context.  In some other contexts, hi-ya does mean became.  But there is NO way hi-ya can be translated "became" when following a "vav" disjunctive.   You can reject it if you want, but you are wrong to do so.   I don't know of any translators that agree with you.   And by the way, most of the "scholars" that side with your view I have found to be evangelical radio and TV preachers.  They are not scholars of Hebrew.

 

The actual word, as I referenced, means blazing star.  Words, even if they are sometimes used in poetry do not mean they are necessarily symbolic, but are actual.

 

This is not about what words mean, but how words are used.   The angels are often characterized as "stars."   Word usage trumps word meaning.   Furthermore, the verse in Job is a poetic synonomous parallel and needs to handled like poetry.