Is 'soul sleep' doctrinal?

[Butch5]

 

 

 

 

 

The basis of my argument is that there is nothing in Scripture that teaches man has a spirit other than the breath/spirit of God that we see in the creation of Adam. God formed him from the dust of the earth and breathed into him the breath/spirit of life and Adam “Became” a living soul. Scripture doesn’t teach any other spirit in a man, nothing.  So there is nothing that can live on after death. If you can make a case showing where the Scriptures teach this I’d be more than happy to look at it. However, all anyone does is give passages from which they’ve “inferred” the idea.  Just because something can be inferred from a passage doesn’t mean that that is what the passage is teaching. There’s nothing in the Scriptures with which an inductive argument can be made.

 

 

What you a failing to recognize is the soul of a man.  You are holding to the belief that man is only a two part being.  I am not saying that man has another spirit other than the breath of God though you seem to think I am. 

 

Man was created a three part being.  In the book of Genesis when God created Adam you have...

1.) God formed his body from out of the dust of the ground hence a body. 

2.) Then God breathed the breath of Life into that body that he created out of the dust of the ground (being the life and Spirit of God) hence a spirit. 

3.) And then man "became" a living soul hence a soul. 

 

Man is a three part being made up of a body, a spirit and a soul.  You can't "become" (a soul) anything in this earth without a body or the life or spirit of God within that body.  The very breath that God breathed into the nostrils of Adam's body in the beginning of the human race the human race is still thriving on that breath and Spirit of God on the inside of our body that we live in. 

 

If the breath or life of the spirit is taken from our body then it return back to God who gave it.  The body would return to dust from which it came. The soul that we became or the person we became in this earth in the life or breath that God gave goes back to God and we cease to exist in an earthly body no longer able to live our lives in the earth .  Without the breath and life of God in our mortal bodies we cannot "become" (a living soul) or be anything in this earth.  Take the breath of God away then our life which is God's to start with will return back to him who gave it to us.  But with a body and the life of God given to our body we can become the soul God created us and ordained us to be in this earth.  And we will all give account of the life we lived in this earth in our earthly bodies whether they be good or bad.

 

No, man is not 3 parts, he is 2. The two parts became the soul. It's like water, water consists of two parts hydrogen and oxygen. The two elements become water. Water is not made of hydrogen, oxygen, and water. The soul of man consists of a body and God's breath/spirit. When God takes back the breath/spirit, the body dies and the soul (body and God's breath/spirit) ceases to exist.

 

 

 

What you are teaching is not soul sleep but "Soul Annilhlation" as you have stated upon death the soul (body and God's/Spirit) ceases to exist.  That would mean the grave is the end period with no resurrection.  As you can't resurrect a soul that doesn't exist anymore.

 

This would and does contradict your stated beliefs and teaching of the resurrection that you've also stated in other of your posts within this thread.

 

You are teaching man is only a two part being and those two parts become the soul.  This then in your teaching would mean that man became a one part being.  That one part would be the soul. 

 

So since we know the body still exist that cannot be true.

 

Now using your water comparision that by mixing hydrogen and oxygen you get water.  That would mean that hydrogen and oxygen would cease to exist as you would have nothing but water.  But that isn't true because both hydrogen and oxygen "exists" without becoming water in the earth all on their own.  We even breath the oxygen. 

 

But when existing hydrogen and existing oxygen are together it is then you will have existing water and that is three not two. 

 

You're argument doesn't follow. The body and the Breath/spirit of God do not cease to exist when they come together to become a soul any more than the oxygen and hydrogen cease to exist when they form water. Wate her ceases to exist.  

 

God can resurrect a soul that has ceased to exist just has he can resurrect a body that has decayed and has ceased to exist. Yes, Annihilationism is what the Scriptures teach as the destiny of the wicked.

 

 

 

You say that "Annihilationism is what the scriptures teach as the destiny of the wicked.  Then what happens to the souls of the righteous?   If you believe the souls of the wicked are anihilated.  Then does this mean you don't believe in the eternal punishment of the wicked?  I am curious as to what church you belong too.   I would like to see the scriptures backing the teachings of the annihilation of the wicked.

 

When a man die his body returns to the dust and the spirit/breath of God in him returns to God (Ecc. 3). Everyone, believer and unbeliever goes to the grave and returns to the dust.  When Jesus returns the dead, the righteous dead will be raised to rule and reign with him for 1000 years. At the end of this time the rest of the dead and those who lived during that 1000 years will be raised and judged. Those not found in the book of life will be thrown into the Lake of Fire which is the second death. 

 

No, I no longer believe in eternal torment. An in depth study of the subject in the Scriptures has reveal that it is not what the Scriptures teach. There are few passages that may seem t support that idea, however, those passages can also be understood differently. It's the same as with the subject at hand. There are a few passages that seem to accommodate the idea of the man living outside of the body, however, they don't require that interpretation. They can understood differently showing that they don't teach that man live apart from the body.

 

The idea of eternal torment is drawn from a few Scriptures and yet it contradict many more passages that it's drawn from. One passage that refute eternal torment is John 3:16, The choice there is eternal life or perishing. It's not eternal life or eternal punishment or burning. Psalm 37 repeatedly speaks of the wicked perishing or says they are no more.

 

KJV  Psalm 37:1 <A Psalm of David.> Fret not thyself because of evildoers, neither be thou envious against the workers of iniquity.

2 For they shall soon be cut down like the grass, and wither as the green herb.

3 Trust in the LORD, and do good; so shalt thou dwell in the land, and verily thou shalt be fed.

4 Delight thyself also in the LORD; and he shall give thee the desires of thine heart.

5 Commit thy way unto the LORD; trust also in him; and he shall bring it to pass.

6 And he shall bring forth thy righteousness as the light, and thy judgment as the noonday.

7 Rest in the LORD, and wait patiently for him: fret not thyself because of him who prospereth in his way, because of the man who bringeth wicked devices to pass.

8 Cease from anger, and forsake wrath: fret not thyself in any wise to do evil.

9 For evildoers shall be cut off: but those that wait upon the LORD, they shall inherit the earth.

10 For yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be: yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it shall not be.

11 But the meek shall inherit the earth; and shall delight themselves in the abundance of peace.

12 The wicked plotteth against the just, and gnasheth upon him with his teeth.

13 The Lord shall laugh at him: for he seeth that his day is coming.

14 The wicked have drawn out the sword, and have bent their bow, to cast down the poor and needy, and to slay such as be of upright conversation.

15 Their sword shall enter into their own heart, and their bows shall be broken.

16 A little that a righteous man hath is better than the riches of many wicked.

17 For the arms of the wicked shall be broken: but the LORD upholdeth the righteous.

18 The LORD knoweth the days of the upright: and their inheritance shall be for ever.

19 They shall not be ashamed in the evil time: and in the days of famine they shall be satisfied.

20 But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.

21 The wicked borroweth, and payeth not again: but the righteous sheweth mercy, and giveth.

22 For such as be blessed of him shall inherit the earth; and they that be cursed of him shall be cut off.

23 The steps of a good man are ordered by the LORD: and he delighteth in his way.

24 Though he fall, he shall not be utterly cast down: for the LORD upholdeth him with his hand.

25 I have been young, and now am old; yet have I not seen the righteous forsaken, nor his seed begging bread.

26 He is ever merciful, and lendeth; and his seed is blessed.

27 Depart from evil, and do good; and dwell for evermore.

28 For the LORD loveth judgment, and forsaketh not his saints; they are preserved for ever: but the seed of the wicked shall be cut off.

29 The righteous shall inherit the land, and dwell therein for ever.

30 The mouth of the righteous speaketh wisdom, and his tongue talketh of judgment.

31 The law of his God is in his heart; none of his steps shall slide.

32 The wicked watcheth the righteous, and seeketh to slay him.

33 The LORD will not leave him in his hand, nor condemn him when he is judged.

34 Wait on the LORD, and keep his way, and he shall exalt thee to inherit the land: when the wicked are cut off, thou shalt see it.

35 I have seen the wicked in great power, and spreading himself like a green bay tree.

36 Yet he passed away, and, lo, he was not: yea, I sought him, but he could not be found.

37 Mark the perfect man, and behold the upright: for the end of that man is peace.

38 But the transgressors shall be destroyed together: the end of the wicked shall be cut off.

39 But the salvation of the righteous is of the LORD: he is their strength in the time of trouble.

40 And the LORD shall help them, and deliver them: he shall deliver them from the wicked, and save them, because they trust in him. (Psa 37:1-40 KJV)

 

Through this Psalm the contrast is the righteous inheriting the land forever and the wicked being cut off or destroyed. Being cut off or destroyed is contrasted with eternal life.

 

2 I will be glad and rejoice in thee: I will sing praise to thy name, O thou most High.

3 When mine enemies are turned back, they shall fall and perish at thy presence.

4 For thou hast maintained my right and my cause; thou satest in the throne judging right.

5 Thou hast rebuked the heathen, thou hast destroyed the wicked, thou hast put out their name for ever and ever.

(Psa 9:2-5 KJV)

 

7 When the wicked spring as the grass, and when all the workers of iniquity do flourish; it is that they shall be destroyed for ever:

8 But thou, LORD, art most high for evermore.

9 For, lo, thine enemies, O LORD, for, lo, thine enemies shall perish; all the workers of iniquity shall be scattered. (Psa 92:7-9 KJV)

 

KJV  Psalm 68:1 <To the chief Musician, A Psalm or Song of David.> Let God arise, let his enemies be scattered: let them also that hate him flee before him.

2 As smoke is driven away, so drive them away: as wax melteth before the fire, so let the wicked perish at the presence of God. (Psa 68:1-2 KJV)

 

7 When a wicked man dieth, his expectation shall perish: and the hope of unjust men perisheth.

8 The righteous is delivered out of trouble, and the wicked cometh in his stead.

9 An hypocrite with his mouth destroyeth his neighbour: but through knowledge shall the just be delivered.

10 When it goeth well with the righteous, the city rejoiceth: and when the wicked perish, there is shouting. (Pro 11:7-10 KJV)

 

28 When the wicked rise, men hide themselves: but when they perish, the righteous increase. (Pro 28:28 KJV)

 

28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. (Mat 10:28 KJV)

 

There something to note about this verse in regard to the idea that man exists outside of the body. Notice what Jesus said God is able to destroy, it's the body and the soul (life). Notice Jesus didn't say spirit, why? Because the spirit is God's an it returns to him. If man was a three part being many claim then his spirit would also be able to be destroyed by God.

 

41 They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will let out his vineyard unto other husbandmen, which shall render him the fruits in their seasons. (Mat 21:41 KJV)

 

17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are. (1Co 3:17 KJV)

 

There is one lawgiver, who is able to save and to destroy: who art thou that judgest another? (Jam 4:12 KJV)

 

18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth. (Rev 11:18 KJV)

 

These are some of the passages that state the wicked will be destroy or that they are no more. If Scripture says they are no more then the can't be existing somewhere in eternal torment. Additionally, the Scriptures say that the Lake of Fire is the "Second" death. It's not a death if no one dies in it. 

 

Another thing to consider is what the Scriptures say regarding sin. The say that the wages of sin is death. The strongest penalty in the Scriptures for sin is death. There is nothing in the Scriptures that says the wages of sin is eternal torment or burning. If God says, if you sin you will die, we can take His word for that. Is it just to threaten one punishment death for sin and then change the punishment after the sin is committed? No, its not. God is just therefore we can know that when He sets a punishment for sins that is the punishment that we will receive. That punishment set for sin is death not eternal torment or burning.

 

The church I attend is irrelevant because I don't derive my doctrines from it. However, since you've inquired I attend Cornelia Christian Church. I derive my doctrines from in depth studies of the Scriptures. Most Christian doctrines have passages that seem to support it and seem to refute it. Rather than pick a side, I seek to reconcile that differences between that passages through deeper study. When one can reconcile all of the passages of Scripture regarding any topic they have arrived at an accurate understanding of the Scriptures on that subject.

[Guest DRS81]

 

 

 

The body and the Breath/spirit of God do not cease to exist when they come together to become a soul any more than the oxygen and hydrogen cease to exist when they form water. Wate her ceases to exist.  

 

God can resurrect a soul that has ceased to exist just has he can resurrect a body that has decayed and has ceased to exist. Yes, Annihilationism is what the Scriptures teach as the destiny of the wicked.

 

Annihilationism is false teaching Butch. Nonbelievers will be judged according to what they have done. Being judged is not Annihilationism. The person has to be aware of his judgment, not dead in the grave. That's the reason for judgment so you face the punishment. Kinda like when a judge gives a criminal his punishment. The criminal is still alive to face his punishment.  (Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done.) And I'll be waiting for an answer on post 126. Thank you.

 

That's correct. That's why the dead will be raised. Those who have done evil will be cast into the lake of fire which Scripture calls the second death. So, they will be alive when they are judged, then they will be destroyed.

 

 

Destroyed is not ceasing to exist. Judgment is not ceasing to exist Butch.

 

 

 

The Holy Spirit is the third person of the Trinity who proceeds from both the Father and the Son.

 

Ok good, you confirm that the holy spirit is a person and from the trinity.

The second half of the question was where does the Holy Spirit come from.

Where is the Father and son right now, where do they live, where is their place of residence?

 

God, the Father is omnipresent so He is everywhere.Scripture says that Jesus is seated at His right hand. The common consensus is that He is in heaven.

 

 

Ok, so if the Father and the Son are in heaven, and the holy spirit is a person working in people's lives then why for the life of me do you think this is nonsense...

 

 

Yes the tree of life was in the Garden of Eden in Genesis which is the Paradise of God, but where does Paradise come from Butch, It comes from the throne of God in heaven. The tree of life also describes the sanctification of the Holy Spirit through streams of earthly comfort, coming from heaven. I thought you knew this. (Rev 22:2 down the middle of the great street of the city. On each side of the river stood the tree of life, bearing twelve crops of fruit, yielding its fruit every month. And the leaves of the tree are for the healing of the nations.)

Matthew Henry's Concise Commentary http://biblehub.com/...lation/22-2.htm

22:1-5 All streams of earthly comfort are muddy; but these are clear, and refreshing. They give life, and preserve life, to those who drink of them, and thus they will flow for evermore. These point to the quickening and sanctifying influences of the Holy Spirit, as given to sinners through Christ. The Holy Spirit, proceeding from the Father and the Son, applies this salvation to our souls by his new-creating love and power. The trees of life are fed by the pure waters of the river that comes from the throne of God. The presence of God in heaven, is the health and happiness of the saints. This tree was an emblem of Christ, and of all the blessings of his salvation; and the leaves for the healing of the nations, mean that his favour and presence supply all good to the inhabitants of that blessed world. The devil has no power there; he cannot draw the saints from serving God, nor can he disturb them in the service of God. God and the Lamb are here spoken of as one. Service there shall be not only freedom, but honour and dominion. There will be no night; no affliction or dejection, no pause in service or enjoyment: no diversions or pleasures or man's inventing will there be wanted. How different all this from gross and merely human views of heavenly happiness, even those which refer to pleasures of the mind!

 

I’m sorry, that’s just nonsense. It’s this kind of nonsense that leads people astray. You really should search the Scriptures rather than these commentaries. The fact that one can find commentaries that oppose each other on the same passage is reason enough to forego reading them.

 

Do you not believe the holy spirit lives and indwells the believer? The tree of life in Rev 22:2 is used to describe the love proceeding from the Father and Son from heaven down to his believers.

[Guest DRS81]

 

This is very simple to explain.  The body itself cannot praise God in the grave.  The physical body knows nothing.  When a person dies, their body does sleep until the resurrection.  What happens is the spirit leaves the body.  Scripture states that the body without the Spirit is dead.  The spirit goes to heaven or hell, and the body sleeps in the ground.  When Jesus returns at his second coming, the spirits of the dead will be joined with their bodies, and they will be raised.  They will have a glorified body.  Nothing I have said contradicts those scriptures when interpreted like that.  It only contradicts your interpretation of those scriptures. 

Except that the passages didn't say the body. David said when I go down to the pit, he didn't say when my body goes down to the pit.

 

Butero said the BODY sleeps in the grave, and the SPIRIT goes to hell.

 

I also wanted to clarify Psalm 30:9 "What is gained if I am silenced, if I go down to the pit? Will the dust praise you? Will it proclaim your faithfulness?

 

Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible http://biblehub.com/psalms/30-9.htm

shall the dust praise thee? that is, men, whose original is dust, being reduced to dust again, as the body at death, when laid in the grave, and corrupted there, is; this lifeless dust cannot praise the Lord: the soul indeed dies not with the body; nor does it sleep in the grave with it; nor is it unemployed in heaven; but is continually engaged in the high praises of God: but the sense of the psalmist is, that should he die, and be buried, and be reduced to dust, he should no more praise the Lord in the land of the living, among men, to the glory of divine grace and goodness; so that this revenue of his glory would be lost. Shall it declare thy truth? either the truth of the Gospel, which lies in the word of God; or rather the faithfulness of God in the performance of his promises; see Psalm 40:10.

 

[1x1is1]

I only got as far a page 5, so if this has been addressed earlier, then just consider it a confirmation on my part...... Rev 6:9 mentions the souls under the alter that were slain for the word of God......... Rev 7:9-17  speaks of elders in white robes who came out of the great tribulation.

 

These people were not sleeping in any sense of the word.  Our souls do go to heaven, but why do we need white robes?  A mystery to me.

[Guest Butero]

I only got as far a page 5, so if this has been addressed earlier, then just consider it a confirmation on my part...... Rev 6:9 mentions the souls under the alter that were slain for the word of God......... Rev 7:9-17  speaks of elders in white robes who came out of the great tribulation.

 

These people were not sleeping in any sense of the word.  Our souls do go to heaven, but why do we need white robes?  A mystery to me.

They represent being made clean and pure.  White symbolizes purity, as we have been washed clean of all sin stains by the blood of Jesus.  I agree with you that the people were not sleeping.  The body sleeps in the ground, but the spirit lives on, and is either in heaven or hell. 

[Butch5]

 

 

This is very simple to explain.  The body itself cannot praise God in the grave.  The physical body knows nothing.  When a person dies, their body does sleep until the resurrection.  What happens is the spirit leaves the body.  Scripture states that the body without the Spirit is dead.  The spirit goes to heaven or hell, and the body sleeps in the ground.  When Jesus returns at his second coming, the spirits of the dead will be joined with their bodies, and they will be raised.  They will have a glorified body.  Nothing I have said contradicts those scriptures when interpreted like that.  It only contradicts your interpretation of those scriptures. 

Except that the passages didn't say the body. David said when I go down to the pit, he didn't say when my body goes down to the pit.

 

Butero said the BODY sleeps in the grave, and the SPIRIT goes to hell.

 

I also wanted to clarify Psalm 30:9 "What is gained if I am silenced, if I go down to the pit? Will the dust praise you? Will it proclaim your faithfulness?

 

Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible http://biblehub.com/psalms/30-9.htm

shall the dust praise thee? that is, men, whose original is dust, being reduced to dust again, as the body at death, when laid in the grave, and corrupted there, is; this lifeless dust cannot praise the Lord: the soul indeed dies not with the body; nor does it sleep in the grave with it; nor is it unemployed in heaven; but is continually engaged in the high praises of God: but the sense of the psalmist is, that should he die, and be buried, and be reduced to dust, he should no more praise the Lord in the land of the living, among men, to the glory of divine grace and goodness; so that this revenue of his glory would be lost. Shall it declare thy truth? either the truth of the Gospel, which lies in the word of God; or rather the faithfulness of God in the performance of his promises; see Psalm 40:10.

 

You do realize that these commentaries carry no weight, correct. All these commentaries are are the doctrines of men. You'd better serve to study the doctrines of God.

[Butch5]

 

I only got as far a page 5, so if this has been addressed earlier, then just consider it a confirmation on my part...... Rev 6:9 mentions the souls under the alter that were slain for the word of God......... Rev 7:9-17  speaks of elders in white robes who came out of the great tribulation.

 

These people were not sleeping in any sense of the word.  Our souls do go to heaven, but why do we need white robes?  A mystery to me.

They represent being made clean and pure.  White symbolizes purity, as we have been washed clean of all sin stains by the blood of Jesus.  I agree with you that the people were not sleeping.  The body sleeps in the ground, but the spirit lives on, and is either in heaven or hell. 

 

Question: why are the souls under the alter? Have you considered that Revelation uses apocalyptic language? Have you considered the possibility that these passages could be understood differently than what you've presented?

[Butch5]

Destroyed is not ceasing to exist. Judgment is not ceasing to exist Butch.

 

You might want to look at the definition of the Greek word translated detsroyed
 

Ok, so if the Father and the Son are in heaven, and the holy spirit is a person working in people's lives then why for the life of me do you think this is nonsense...

 

Why do think what is nonsense? Please specify.

Do you not believe the holy spirit lives and indwells the believer? The tree of life in Rev 22:2 is used to describe the love proceeding from the Father and Son from heaven down to his believers.

 

Do you just make it up? Where do you see anything in Scripture that supports this idea. You really should stop reading those commentaries. There is too much error there. Seriously, why do you think that something John Gill says is correct, Especially when his word flatly contradict Scripture.

I answered your question and you said you’d show where Scripture “Teaches” that man lives apart from the body.

[1x1is1]

Put me present with the Lord, put me under the alter, put me anywhere in white robes. Just get me to Heaven.  Thank you Lord. 

[Guest DRS81]

 

First you said the body and breath of God became a soul then you said the three were combined to create man. Man is a living soul. That’s like saying to make water you combine, hydrogen, oxygen, and water, and you have water. The first 2 create water. Water is the product of the combination of hydrogen and oxygen just as a soul is the combination of a body and God’s breath/spirit.  You can’t have it both ways.

 

You're not listening bro. I'm a give you a really simple example. If God made our bodies and gave us spirit/life through his spirit and stopped there, then what's the point of that. Our souls control our will, mind and emotions. If God stopped at just body and spirit/life, then we would be no more than zombies walking around. We all might as well be hooked up to hospital tubes and live off machines. Is the three parts clicking yet. Take your time Butch.

 

I already answered your question.

 

You do realize that these commentaries carry no weight, correct. All these commentaries are are the doctrines of men. You'd better serve to study the doctrines of God.

 

If these commentaries are the doctrines of men, then what does that make yours.

 

 

Ok, so if the Father and the Son are in heaven, and the holy spirit is a person working in people's lives then why for the life of me do you think this is nonsense...

 

 

Why do think what is nonsense? Please specify.

 

Because you said it was nonsense, post 132 (From Butch: "I’m sorry, that’s just nonsense. It’s this kind of nonsense that leads people astray. You really should search the Scriptures rather than these commentaries. The fact that one can find commentaries that oppose each other on the same passage is reason enough to forego reading them.") You see Butch, the thing about searching scriptures on your own is that it's easier to twist them on your own. You see how that works? You don't understand what the tree of life is, and that's ok. The tree of life in Genesis and Revelation cannot be compared as both physical trees on earth. The tree of life is a physical tree in Genesis, but it is also a symbolic metaphor to describe the love and healing of God in Revelation. This tree of life comes from the throne of God in heaven. That's why I'm asking you if you believe that believers in Christ are indwelled with the Holy Spirit. I'm trying to teach you something, but you have to answer my questions in order for that to happen. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tree_of_life

 

 

Destroyed is not ceasing to exist. Judgment is not ceasing to exist Butch.

 

You might want to look at the definition of the Greek word translated detsroyed

 

Judgment is not ceasing to exist, I'm sorry Butch. What's the definition of the Greek word translated judgment?