Is 'soul sleep' doctrinal?

[missmuffet]

 

Soul sleep- the idea that all those who die sleep until the time of Judgment, when we will be awakened and sent to our eternal destinations. These are copy and paste articles from carm.org and gotquestions.org, but I don't think I believe in this doctrine. 

 

“Soul sleep” is a belief that after a person dies, his/her soul “sleeps” until the resurrection and final judgment. The concept of “soul sleep” is not biblical. When the Bible describes a person “sleeping” in relation to death (Luke 8:52;1 Corinthians 15:6), it does not mean literal sleep. Sleeping is just a way to describe death because a dead body appears to be asleep. The moment we die, we face the judgment of God (Hebrews 9:27). For believers, to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord (2 Corinthians 5:6-8;Philippians 1:23). For unbelievers, death means everlasting punishment in hell (Luke 16:22-23).

Until the final resurrection, though, there is a temporary heaven—paradise (Luke 23:43;2 Corinthians 12:4) and a temporary hell—Hades (Revelation 1:18;20:13-14). As can be clearly seen inLuke 16:19-31, neither in paradise nor in Hades are people sleeping. It could be said, though, that a person’s body is “sleeping” while his soul is in paradise or Hades. At the resurrection, this body is “awakened” and transformed into the everlasting body a person will possess for eternity, whether in heaven or hell. Those who were in paradise will be sent to the new heavens and new earth (Revelation 21:1). Those who were in Hades will be thrown into the lake of fire (Revelation 20:11-15). These are the final, eternal destinations of all people—based entirely on whether or not a person trusted in Jesus Christ for salvation.

 

Soul sleep is the teaching that when a person dies, his soul "sleeps" until the time of the future resurrection.  In this condition, the person is not aware or conscious.  The Jehovah's Witnesses and the Seventh-day Adventists hold to this doctrine.  But the Jehovah's Witnesses teach annihilation.  This means that after death a person ceases to exist.  At the future resurrection they maintain that the soul is made again.  Basically, it is a re-creation of the individual.  The Seventh-day Adventists teach at the soul is simply inert and resides in the memory of God.

The primary verses used to support soul sleep are found in Ecclesiastes:

• Eccl. 9:5,  For the living know they will die; but the dead do not know anything, nor have they any longer a reward, for their memory is forgotten."
• Eccl. 12:7,  "then the dust will return to the earth as it was, and the spirit will return to God who gave it."

Ecclesiastes must be understood in the context of its own commentary, which says at the opening of the book, "The words of the Preacher, the son of David, king in Jerusalem. 2 “Vanity of vanities,” says the Preacher, “Vanity of vanities! All is vanity.” 3 What advantage does man have in all his work which he does under the sun?" (Eccl. 1:1-3).  The writer is telling us how things are from the human perspective, from "under the sun."  He is not telling us doctrinal statements about whether or not the soul continues after death.  Besides, it's a mistake to use the Old Testament to interpret the New Testament.  It is the New Testament that sheds light on the Old Testament.

In the New Testament we see Paul say in 2 Cor. 5:8, "we are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord."  Paul is clearly telling us that when he dies, he will go and be with the Lord.  Furthermore, at the Transfiguration of Jesus (Matt. 17:1-8) we see Moses and Elijah who were alive.  There was no soul sleep with them.

Therefore, the doctrine of soul sleep is incorrect.  The soul continues on after death.  The wicked face the judgment of God, and the Christians will dwell in His presence.

Both groups are in error about soul sleep.

I don't understand why do people go to Carm or Got Questions. From what I've seen on these sites the subjects are approached from a theological position rather than approaching the Scriptures from a neutral position. It seems to me that they are just presenting their doctrinal positions rather than actually seeking the truth of Scripture. The Scriptures clearly teach that the dead are dead. The Scriptures do not teach that there is something in man that lives on after death. That idea is imposed on the Scriptures. Genesis gives the account of the creation of man. Man consists of two things, a body formed from the dust and the breath/spirit of life which comes from God. We're also told that when a man dies the breath/spirit of life in him returns to God and his body returns to the dust. The breath/spirit of life is something from God, it is not the person. The idea that a person is a spirit/soul/ghost that lives in a body is not a biblical concept it comes from Greek philosophy. According to the Genesis account  the only spirit/breath in a man is God's. It is God's spirit/breath and a body that forms a living soul. A soul "Cannot" exist without a body. It takes God's breath/spirit and a body to make a soul. Since a requires a body, if the body is dead, the soul is dead. It's not in a state of sleep or limbo somewhere, it's dead.

 

What do you mean by a neutral position?Are we not to take scripture from a theological position

[Butch5]

 

 

Soul sleep- the idea that all those who die sleep until the time of Judgment, when we will be awakened and sent to our eternal destinations. These are copy and paste articles from carm.org and gotquestions.org, but I don't think I believe in this doctrine. 

 

“Soul sleep” is a belief that after a person dies, his/her soul “sleeps” until the resurrection and final judgment. The concept of “soul sleep” is not biblical. When the Bible describes a person “sleeping” in relation to death (Luke 8:52;1 Corinthians 15:6), it does not mean literal sleep. Sleeping is just a way to describe death because a dead body appears to be asleep. The moment we die, we face the judgment of God (Hebrews 9:27). For believers, to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord (2 Corinthians 5:6-8;Philippians 1:23). For unbelievers, death means everlasting punishment in hell (Luke 16:22-23).

Until the final resurrection, though, there is a temporary heaven—paradise (Luke 23:43;2 Corinthians 12:4) and a temporary hell—Hades (Revelation 1:18;20:13-14). As can be clearly seen inLuke 16:19-31, neither in paradise nor in Hades are people sleeping. It could be said, though, that a person’s body is “sleeping” while his soul is in paradise or Hades. At the resurrection, this body is “awakened” and transformed into the everlasting body a person will possess for eternity, whether in heaven or hell. Those who were in paradise will be sent to the new heavens and new earth (Revelation 21:1). Those who were in Hades will be thrown into the lake of fire (Revelation 20:11-15). These are the final, eternal destinations of all people—based entirely on whether or not a person trusted in Jesus Christ for salvation.

 

Soul sleep is the teaching that when a person dies, his soul "sleeps" until the time of the future resurrection.  In this condition, the person is not aware or conscious.  The Jehovah's Witnesses and the Seventh-day Adventists hold to this doctrine.  But the Jehovah's Witnesses teach annihilation.  This means that after death a person ceases to exist.  At the future resurrection they maintain that the soul is made again.  Basically, it is a re-creation of the individual.  The Seventh-day Adventists teach at the soul is simply inert and resides in the memory of God.

The primary verses used to support soul sleep are found in Ecclesiastes:

• Eccl. 9:5,  For the living know they will die; but the dead do not know anything, nor have they any longer a reward, for their memory is forgotten."
• Eccl. 12:7,  "then the dust will return to the earth as it was, and the spirit will return to God who gave it."

Ecclesiastes must be understood in the context of its own commentary, which says at the opening of the book, "The words of the Preacher, the son of David, king in Jerusalem. 2 “Vanity of vanities,” says the Preacher, “Vanity of vanities! All is vanity.” 3 What advantage does man have in all his work which he does under the sun?" (Eccl. 1:1-3).  The writer is telling us how things are from the human perspective, from "under the sun."  He is not telling us doctrinal statements about whether or not the soul continues after death.  Besides, it's a mistake to use the Old Testament to interpret the New Testament.  It is the New Testament that sheds light on the Old Testament.

In the New Testament we see Paul say in 2 Cor. 5:8, "we are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord."  Paul is clearly telling us that when he dies, he will go and be with the Lord.  Furthermore, at the Transfiguration of Jesus (Matt. 17:1-8) we see Moses and Elijah who were alive.  There was no soul sleep with them.

Therefore, the doctrine of soul sleep is incorrect.  The soul continues on after death.  The wicked face the judgment of God, and the Christians will dwell in His presence.

Both groups are in error about soul sleep.

I don't understand why do people go to Carm or Got Questions. From what I've seen on these sites the subjects are approached from a theological position rather than approaching the Scriptures from a neutral position. It seems to me that they are just presenting their doctrinal positions rather than actually seeking the truth of Scripture. The Scriptures clearly teach that the dead are dead. The Scriptures do not teach that there is something in man that lives on after death. That idea is imposed on the Scriptures. Genesis gives the account of the creation of man. Man consists of two things, a body formed from the dust and the breath/spirit of life which comes from God. We're also told that when a man dies the breath/spirit of life in him returns to God and his body returns to the dust. The breath/spirit of life is something from God, it is not the person. The idea that a person is a spirit/soul/ghost that lives in a body is not a biblical concept it comes from Greek philosophy. According to the Genesis account  the only spirit/breath in a man is God's. It is God's spirit/breath and a body that forms a living soul. A soul "Cannot" exist without a body. It takes God's breath/spirit and a body to make a soul. Since a requires a body, if the body is dead, the soul is dead. It's not in a state of sleep or limbo somewhere, it's dead.

 

What do you mean by a neutral position?Are we not to take scripture from a theological position

 

No, We should approach the Scriptures with the idea of letting them tell us what they say. Instead many approach the Scriptures with a theological bias. For instance, in this thread people are arguing that there is something in man that lives on after he dies. The Bible does not teach any such thing. People already have this idea when they approach the Scriptures. So, when they see passages such as the rich man and Lazarus, they say see, it's talking about being alive after death. That's not what the passage is saying. That interpretation contradicts multiple passages of Scripture.

[Butch5]

 

 

 

The spirit or breath belongs to God and returns to Him at death. The body returns to the dust.

 

Yes, the spirit and soul of the believer go to be with the Lord immediately after death, while their body rest in the grave awaiting resurrection. What's the problem here..

 

That's not what it says. The spirit/breath returns to God not the soul. A soul is a physical  being, something that can be touched with the hands. The Bible calls fish and animals souls. They are living beings.

 

 

I hate to be the pest here or 'that guy', but you really need to go to commentary man.

Learn what other people are saying about scripture, get a different perspective.

I've asked you like more than once to read post 10.

In regard to Gen 2:7, you're taking scripture out of context.

Step out of the box you're in because you can't sum up this study with just one scripture.

Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible http://biblehub.com/genesis/2-7.htm

And breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; which in that way entered into his body, and quickened it, which before was a lifeless lump of clay, though beautifully shapen: it is in the plural number, the "breath of lives" (l), including the vegetative, sensitive, and rational life of man. And this was produced not with his body, as the souls of brutes were, and was produced by the breath of God, as theirs were not; nor theirs out of the earth, as his body was: and these two different productions show the different nature of the soul and body of man, the one is material and mortal, the other immaterial and immortal:

 

Also explain this..Matthew 17:1-4 reads, "And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart, And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light. And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him. Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias." Moses had been dead (Deuteronomy 34:5) for fifteen centuries; yet, despite being dead, he is able to speak to Jesus. Clearly, Moses' soul was not asleep in the grave. The same is true of Elijah, who centuries earlier had been caught up in a whirlwind (2nd Kings 2:11). Elijah was still conscious.

Lastly, do you consider yourself a Christadelphian, Jehovah's Witness or a Seventh-Day Adventist?

 

 

I've already looked at post 10. All this shows is that John Gill doesn't understand the Scriptures. It's reading commentaries like this that leads people astray. One can find commentaries saying just about anything you want. Which one do you believe? Does one pick a commentary that agrees with them and just say the rest are wrong?

 

Regarding study, I spend an enormous amount of time in study. It's this time spent in study that has shone me how wrong many of these commentators are. Gill says the soul is immortal the Bible says that only the Father is immortal. You can choose Gill or the apostle Paul.

 

14 That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:

15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;

16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen. (1Ti 6:14-16 KJV)

 

Regarding the Transfiguration, it was a vision Moses and Elijah were not actually there. You should have continued to verse.

 

9 And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead. (Mat 17:9 KJV)

 

They saw a vision of the kingdom of God. In the vision Jesus was glowing, afterward He was not.

[Guest DRS81]

I've already looked at post 10. All this shows is that John Gill doesn't understand the Scriptures. It's reading commentaries like this that leads people astray. One can find commentaries saying just about anything you want. Which one do you believe? Does one pick a commentary that agrees with them and just say the rest are wrong?

 

The difference between John Gill and you is that John is not taking the word 'sleep' in the Bible out of context. http://www.catholic.com/quickquestions/how-do-we-refute-the-soul-sleep-argument

These verses use what is known as phenomenological language, the language of appearances. Phenomenological language occurs when we describe something as it looks, irrespective of how it is. The classic example of phenomenological language is talk of the sun rising and setting. The sun appears to rise and set , but this motion is actually due to the rotation of the earth rather than to motion of the sun around the earth. Verses that speak of the dead sleeping use phenomenological language. For example, Daniel 12:2 states, "And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt." This image is of people getting up much as a sleeper rises in the morning. The sleep being discussed is phenomenological sleep, not literal sleep (Daniel is not talking about living people who sleep on the ground). Because dead people look like they are sleeping, especially when lying on their deathbeds (and notice that people often die on beds, enhancing the sleep analogy), the Bible often uses "sleep" as a euphemism for "death." In fact, this euphemism is common today.

 

Gill says the soul is immortal the Bible says that only the Father is immortal. You can choose Gill or the apostle Paul.

 

14 That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:

15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;

16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen. (1Ti 6:14-16 KJV)

 

Incorrect. The Bible does say the soul is immortal, from scriptures in both the Old and New Testaments:

Psalm 22:26; 23:6; 49:7-9; Ecclesiastes 12:7; Daniel 12:2-3; Matthew 25:46; and 1 Corinthians 15:12-19. Daniel 12:2

 

Again, you are taking another scripture out of context. Immortality is a gift from God because salvation is a gift from God. FROM God..

 

1 Tim 6:16 Who only hath immortality http://www.biblestudytools.com/commentaries/gills-exposition-of-the-bible/1-timothy-6-16.html

Angels are immortal, and so are the souls of men, and so will be the bodies of men after the resurrection; but then neither of these have immortality of themselves, they have it from God; who only has it, of himself, originally, essentially, and inderivatively.

 

Regarding the Transfiguration, it was a vision Moses and Elijah were not actually there. You should have continued to verse.

 

9 And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead. (Mat 17:9 KJV)

 

They saw a vision of the kingdom of God. In the vision Jesus was glowing, afterward He was not.

 

Yes but the vision speaks about the condition of Moses and Elijah in heaven, talking to Jesus on earth. Yes, it was a vision and visions reveal messages...(what was the message? LUKE 9:31) & (Mt 17:1-8pp -- Lk 9:28-36 17:1-13pp -- Mk 9:2-13) "Tell the vision to no man" means nobody would believe them because of the greatness of the vision. Just because it was a vision doesn't mean it never existed or what went down never happened and the people in the vision were never there, no. It's because other people would think you're crazy if you got a vision from "Jesus", lol. Visions from Jesus come from Heaven Butch5.

Matt 17:3 Moses and Elias; http://www.biblestudytools.com/commentaries/gills-exposition-of-the-bible/matthew-17-3.html

Moses the giver of the law, and Elias one of the chief of the prophets: one of them had been dead near a thousand and five hundred years, and the other had been caught up to heaven, about nine hundred years before this.

In regards to Matt 17:9 tell the vision to no man because no man would believe them until after the death and resurrection of Jesus..

Jesus charged them, saying, tell the vision to no man: http://www.biblestudytools.com/commentaries/gills-exposition-of-the-bible/matthew-17-9.html

by the "vision" is meant, as it is explained in Mark, "what things they had seen"; as Moses and Elias, and the bright cloud that overshadowed them, and Christ transfigured before them, in a surprising, glorious manner. These Christ strictly ordered Peter, James, and John, to speak of to no man whatever; no, not their fellow disciples; who either would be apt to disbelieve them, on account of the greatness of them, as Thomas did the resurrection of Christ afterwards; or lest they should be troubled and displeased, that they were not admitted to the same sight; and especially not to the multitude, or to any other person,

 

until the son of man be risen again from the dead; http://www.biblestudytools.com/commentaries/gills-exposition-of-the-bible/matthew-17-9.html

meaning himself and his resurrection, when such proof would be given of his mission, authority, and glory, which would make this account more easy to be believed: besides, he had told the Jews, that no sign, that is, from heaven, as this voice was, should be given, but the sign of the Prophet Jonas

[missmuffet]

 

 

 

Soul sleep- the idea that all those who die sleep until the time of Judgment, when we will be awakened and sent to our eternal destinations. These are copy and paste articles from carm.org and gotquestions.org, but I don't think I believe in this doctrine. 

 

“Soul sleep” is a belief that after a person dies, his/her soul “sleeps” until the resurrection and final judgment. The concept of “soul sleep” is not biblical. When the Bible describes a person “sleeping” in relation to death (Luke 8:52;1 Corinthians 15:6), it does not mean literal sleep. Sleeping is just a way to describe death because a dead body appears to be asleep. The moment we die, we face the judgment of God (Hebrews 9:27). For believers, to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord (2 Corinthians 5:6-8;Philippians 1:23). For unbelievers, death means everlasting punishment in hell (Luke 16:22-23).

Until the final resurrection, though, there is a temporary heaven—paradise (Luke 23:43;2 Corinthians 12:4) and a temporary hell—Hades (Revelation 1:18;20:13-14). As can be clearly seen inLuke 16:19-31, neither in paradise nor in Hades are people sleeping. It could be said, though, that a person’s body is “sleeping” while his soul is in paradise or Hades. At the resurrection, this body is “awakened” and transformed into the everlasting body a person will possess for eternity, whether in heaven or hell. Those who were in paradise will be sent to the new heavens and new earth (Revelation 21:1). Those who were in Hades will be thrown into the lake of fire (Revelation 20:11-15). These are the final, eternal destinations of all people—based entirely on whether or not a person trusted in Jesus Christ for salvation.

 

Soul sleep is the teaching that when a person dies, his soul "sleeps" until the time of the future resurrection.  In this condition, the person is not aware or conscious.  The Jehovah's Witnesses and the Seventh-day Adventists hold to this doctrine.  But the Jehovah's Witnesses teach annihilation.  This means that after death a person ceases to exist.  At the future resurrection they maintain that the soul is made again.  Basically, it is a re-creation of the individual.  The Seventh-day Adventists teach at the soul is simply inert and resides in the memory of God.

The primary verses used to support soul sleep are found in Ecclesiastes:

• Eccl. 9:5,  For the living know they will die; but the dead do not know anything, nor have they any longer a reward, for their memory is forgotten."
• Eccl. 12:7,  "then the dust will return to the earth as it was, and the spirit will return to God who gave it."

Ecclesiastes must be understood in the context of its own commentary, which says at the opening of the book, "The words of the Preacher, the son of David, king in Jerusalem. 2 “Vanity of vanities,” says the Preacher, “Vanity of vanities! All is vanity.” 3 What advantage does man have in all his work which he does under the sun?" (Eccl. 1:1-3).  The writer is telling us how things are from the human perspective, from "under the sun."  He is not telling us doctrinal statements about whether or not the soul continues after death.  Besides, it's a mistake to use the Old Testament to interpret the New Testament.  It is the New Testament that sheds light on the Old Testament.

In the New Testament we see Paul say in 2 Cor. 5:8, "we are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord."  Paul is clearly telling us that when he dies, he will go and be with the Lord.  Furthermore, at the Transfiguration of Jesus (Matt. 17:1-8) we see Moses and Elijah who were alive.  There was no soul sleep with them.

Therefore, the doctrine of soul sleep is incorrect.  The soul continues on after death.  The wicked face the judgment of God, and the Christians will dwell in His presence.

Both groups are in error about soul sleep.

I don't understand why do people go to Carm or Got Questions. From what I've seen on these sites the subjects are approached from a theological position rather than approaching the Scriptures from a neutral position. It seems to me that they are just presenting their doctrinal positions rather than actually seeking the truth of Scripture. The Scriptures clearly teach that the dead are dead. The Scriptures do not teach that there is something in man that lives on after death. That idea is imposed on the Scriptures. Genesis gives the account of the creation of man. Man consists of two things, a body formed from the dust and the breath/spirit of life which comes from God. We're also told that when a man dies the breath/spirit of life in him returns to God and his body returns to the dust. The breath/spirit of life is something from God, it is not the person. The idea that a person is a spirit/soul/ghost that lives in a body is not a biblical concept it comes from Greek philosophy. According to the Genesis account  the only spirit/breath in a man is God's. It is God's spirit/breath and a body that forms a living soul. A soul "Cannot" exist without a body. It takes God's breath/spirit and a body to make a soul. Since a requires a body, if the body is dead, the soul is dead. It's not in a state of sleep or limbo somewhere, it's dead.

 

What do you mean by a neutral position?Are we not to take scripture from a theological position

 

No, We should approach the Scriptures with the idea of letting them tell us what they say. Instead many approach the Scriptures with a theological bias. For instance, in this thread people are arguing that there is something in man that lives on after he dies. The Bible does not teach any such thing. People already have this idea when they approach the Scriptures. So, when they see passages such as the rich man and Lazarus, they say see, it's talking about being alive after death. That's not what the passage is saying. That interpretation contradicts multiple passages of Scripture.

 

Man is going to interpret the scriptures on how they want to interpret the scriptures.On how it will better him not God.They do not take them literally they "spiritualize" them.You see many interpretations that are very dangerous.Not taken literally but watered down.

[missmuffet]

 

.. 

 

Before I correct you on your post can you tell me if you consider yourself a Christadelphian, Jehovah's Witness or a Seventh-Day Adventist?

 

Excuse me if I am wrong but does the TOS say that certain religions are not excepted on Worthy?Please give me your reasoning for cornering a person and asking what religion they are.Is bullying excepted on a Christian messageboard?

[Guest DRS81]

Exuse me if I am wrong but does the TOS say that certain religions are not excepted on Worthy?Please give me your reasoning for cornering a person and asking what religion they are.Is bullying excepted on a Christian messageboard?

 

I wasn't aware of this in the TOS. sorry.

[Butch5]

DRS81, on 18 Jan 2014 - 4:23 PM, said:

The difference between John Gill and you is that John is not taking the word 'sleep' in the Bible out of context. http://www.catholic....-sleep-argument

These verses use what is known as phenomenological language, the language of appearances. Phenomenological language occurs when we describe something as it looks, irrespective of how it is. The classic example of phenomenological language is talk of the sun rising and setting. The sun appears to rise and set , but this motion is actually due to the rotation of the earth rather than to motion of the sun around the earth. Verses that speak of the dead sleeping use phenomenological language. For example, Daniel 12:2 states, "And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt." This image is of people getting up much as a sleeper rises in the morning. The sleep being discussed is phenomenological sleep, not literal sleep (Daniel is not talking about living people who sleep on the ground). Because dead people look like they are sleeping, especially when lying on their deathbeds (and notice that people often die on beds, enhancing the sleep analogy), the Bible often uses "sleep" as a euphemism for "death." In fact, this euphemism is common today.

 

I haven’t made a case for the word sleep so I’m not sure what this has to do with the discussion.

 

 

Incorrect. The Bible does say the soul is immortal, from scriptures in both the Old and New Testaments:

Psalm 22:26; 23:6; 49:7-9; Ecclesiastes 12:7; Daniel 12:2-3; Matthew 25:46; and 1 Corinthians 15:12-19. Daniel 12:2

 

OK, let me make sure it understand you. The apostle Paul was incorrect when he said that only the Father has immortality?

None of the passages you posted say that man has an immortal soul. Most speak of the resurrection in which God will give life to believers. However, believer will live in eternity, not because they are immortal but rather because God will be continuously giving them life, just as He does now. People live now because God is bestowing life on them.

 

 

Again, you are taking another scripture out of context. Immortality is a gift from God because salvation is a gift from God. FROM God..

1 Tim 6:16 Who only hath immortality http://www.biblestud...mothy-6-16.html

Angels are immortal, and so are the souls of men, and so will be the bodies of men after the resurrection; but then neither of these have immortality of themselves, they have it from God; who only has it, of himself, originally, essentially, and inderivatively.

 

No, I’m not. Immortality is not the gift of God, eternal life is.  There’s a difference. God is immortal He needs nothing to live. Man is not immortal He needs God to live. Even in this life if God retrieved His spirit all flesh would die. Therefore the only way for man to have eternal life is to be given life from God on an ongoing basis.

 

 

Yes but the vision speaks about the condition of Moses and Elijah in heaven, talking to Jesus on earth. Yes, it was a vision and visions reveal messages...(what was the message? LUKE 9:31) & (Mt 17:1-8pp -- Lk 9:28-36 17:1-13pp -- Mk 9:2-13) "Tell the vision to no man" means nobody would believe them because of the greatness of the vision. Just because it was a vision doesn't mean it never existed or what went down never happened and the people in the vision were never there, no. It's because other people would think you're crazy if you got a vision from "Jesus", lol. Visions from Jesus come from Heaven Butch5.

 

It was a vision of the coming kingdom, the kingdom had not come yet so the vision hadn’t happened in reality.

 

27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

KJV  Matthew 17:1 And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart,

2 And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light. (Mat 16:27-2 KJV)

 

They were seeing a vision of something that was in the future. It was not something that had already happened.

 

 

 

Matt 17:3 Moses and Elias; http://www.biblestud...tthew-17-3.html

Moses the giver of the law, and Elias one of the chief of the prophets: one of them had been dead near a thousand and five hundred years, and the other had been caught up to heaven, about nine hundred years before this.

In regards to Matt 17:9 tell the vision to no man because no man would believe them until after the death and resurrection of Jesus..

Jesus charged them, saying, tell the vision to no man: http://www.biblestud...tthew-17-9.html

by the "vision" is meant, as it is explained in Mark, "what things they had seen"; as Moses and Elias, and the bright cloud that overshadowed them, and Christ transfigured before them, in a surprising, glorious manner. These Christ strictly ordered Peter, James, and John, to speak of to no man whatever; no, not their fellow disciples; who either would be apt to disbelieve them, on account of the greatness of them, as Thomas did the resurrection of Christ afterwards; or lest they should be troubled and displeased, that they were not admitted to the same sight; and especially not to the multitude, or to any other person,

until the son of man be risen again from the dead; http://www.biblestud...tthew-17-9.html

meaning himself and his resurrection, when such proof would be given of his mission, authority, and glory, which would make this account more easy to be believed: besides, he had told the Jews, that no sign, that is, from heaven, as this voice was, should be given, but the sign of the Prophet Jonas

 

This is the type of unfounded accertions that cause people to be mislead and a prime reason people struggle in understanding the Scriptures. I too used to read commentators however, I realized that they were doing nothing more than giving their opinions which many times are wrong. To get a better understanding of what true Christianity is one would do well to study church history prior to the council of Nicaea. Going back to the beginning before all of this baggage was added to the faith does wonders for one’s understanding of the truth.

Edited January 19, 2014 by Butch5

[Butch5]

 

 

 

 

Soul sleep- the idea that all those who die sleep until the time of Judgment, when we will be awakened and sent to our eternal destinations. These are copy and paste articles from carm.org and gotquestions.org, but I don't think I believe in this doctrine. 

 

“Soul sleep” is a belief that after a person dies, his/her soul “sleeps” until the resurrection and final judgment. The concept of “soul sleep” is not biblical. When the Bible describes a person “sleeping” in relation to death (Luke 8:52;1 Corinthians 15:6), it does not mean literal sleep. Sleeping is just a way to describe death because a dead body appears to be asleep. The moment we die, we face the judgment of God (Hebrews 9:27). For believers, to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord (2 Corinthians 5:6-8;Philippians 1:23). For unbelievers, death means everlasting punishment in hell (Luke 16:22-23).

Until the final resurrection, though, there is a temporary heaven—paradise (Luke 23:43;2 Corinthians 12:4) and a temporary hell—Hades (Revelation 1:18;20:13-14). As can be clearly seen inLuke 16:19-31, neither in paradise nor in Hades are people sleeping. It could be said, though, that a person’s body is “sleeping” while his soul is in paradise or Hades. At the resurrection, this body is “awakened” and transformed into the everlasting body a person will possess for eternity, whether in heaven or hell. Those who were in paradise will be sent to the new heavens and new earth (Revelation 21:1). Those who were in Hades will be thrown into the lake of fire (Revelation 20:11-15). These are the final, eternal destinations of all people—based entirely on whether or not a person trusted in Jesus Christ for salvation.

 

Soul sleep is the teaching that when a person dies, his soul "sleeps" until the time of the future resurrection.  In this condition, the person is not aware or conscious.  The Jehovah's Witnesses and the Seventh-day Adventists hold to this doctrine.  But the Jehovah's Witnesses teach annihilation.  This means that after death a person ceases to exist.  At the future resurrection they maintain that the soul is made again.  Basically, it is a re-creation of the individual.  The Seventh-day Adventists teach at the soul is simply inert and resides in the memory of God.

The primary verses used to support soul sleep are found in Ecclesiastes:

• Eccl. 9:5,  For the living know they will die; but the dead do not know anything, nor have they any longer a reward, for their memory is forgotten."
• Eccl. 12:7,  "then the dust will return to the earth as it was, and the spirit will return to God who gave it."

Ecclesiastes must be understood in the context of its own commentary, which says at the opening of the book, "The words of the Preacher, the son of David, king in Jerusalem. 2 “Vanity of vanities,” says the Preacher, “Vanity of vanities! All is vanity.” 3 What advantage does man have in all his work which he does under the sun?" (Eccl. 1:1-3).  The writer is telling us how things are from the human perspective, from "under the sun."  He is not telling us doctrinal statements about whether or not the soul continues after death.  Besides, it's a mistake to use the Old Testament to interpret the New Testament.  It is the New Testament that sheds light on the Old Testament.

In the New Testament we see Paul say in 2 Cor. 5:8, "we are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord."  Paul is clearly telling us that when he dies, he will go and be with the Lord.  Furthermore, at the Transfiguration of Jesus (Matt. 17:1-8) we see Moses and Elijah who were alive.  There was no soul sleep with them.

Therefore, the doctrine of soul sleep is incorrect.  The soul continues on after death.  The wicked face the judgment of God, and the Christians will dwell in His presence.

Both groups are in error about soul sleep.

I don't understand why do people go to Carm or Got Questions. From what I've seen on these sites the subjects are approached from a theological position rather than approaching the Scriptures from a neutral position. It seems to me that they are just presenting their doctrinal positions rather than actually seeking the truth of Scripture. The Scriptures clearly teach that the dead are dead. The Scriptures do not teach that there is something in man that lives on after death. That idea is imposed on the Scriptures. Genesis gives the account of the creation of man. Man consists of two things, a body formed from the dust and the breath/spirit of life which comes from God. We're also told that when a man dies the breath/spirit of life in him returns to God and his body returns to the dust. The breath/spirit of life is something from God, it is not the person. The idea that a person is a spirit/soul/ghost that lives in a body is not a biblical concept it comes from Greek philosophy. According to the Genesis account  the only spirit/breath in a man is God's. It is God's spirit/breath and a body that forms a living soul. A soul "Cannot" exist without a body. It takes God's breath/spirit and a body to make a soul. Since a requires a body, if the body is dead, the soul is dead. It's not in a state of sleep or limbo somewhere, it's dead.

 

What do you mean by a neutral position?Are we not to take scripture from a theological position

 

No, We should approach the Scriptures with the idea of letting them tell us what they say. Instead many approach the Scriptures with a theological bias. For instance, in this thread people are arguing that there is something in man that lives on after he dies. The Bible does not teach any such thing. People already have this idea when they approach the Scriptures. So, when they see passages such as the rich man and Lazarus, they say see, it's talking about being alive after death. That's not what the passage is saying. That interpretation contradicts multiple passages of Scripture.

 

Man is going to interpret the scriptures on how they want to interpret the scriptures.On how it will better him not God.They do not take them literally they "spiritualize" them.You see many interpretations that are very dangerous.Not taken literally but watered down.

 

I agree!

[Guest DRS81]

I haven’t made a case for the word sleep so I’m not sure what this has to do with the discussion.

 

The OP is about soul sleep. It's important not to take the word 'sleep' out of context. When they 'sleep' after death in the Bible, they are referring to the body only, not the soul and spirit.

 

OK, let me make sure it understand you. The apostle Paul was incorrect when he said that only the Father has immortality?

Most speak of the resurrection in which God will give life to believers. However, believer will live in eternity, not because they are immortal but rather because God will be continuously giving them life, just as He does now.

 

Hi Butch5. Where does Paul say that ONLY the Father has immortality, what scripture are you referring too. I think Paul is saying believers are GRANTED immortality THROUGH the Father only, because immortality is a gift from God THROUGH the salvation of the cross. The cross is what separates sinners from Holy men, mortality to immortality. God giving them life is the definition of immortality Butch. The definition of immortality and eternity is never dying. I think you're just confused on the words. You are using synonyms and not knowing it (immortality/eternal life).

 

No, I’m not. Immortality is not the gift of God, eternal life is.  There’s a difference. God is immortal He needs nothing to live. Man is not immortal He needs God to live. Even in this life if God retrieved His spirit all flesh would die. Therefore the only way for man to have eternal life is to be given life from God on an ongoing basis.

 

Immortality is a gift because you are only immortal when you reach salvation in Jesus Christ, and salvation through Jesus is a gift from God. Immortality IS eternal life, they are the same thing. Yes, man needs God to live, but we only live when we accept Jesus into our hearts by grace and faith. I think you're just confused on the words. You are using synonyms and not knowing it (immortality/eternal life). I think we need to understand these posts first before going into Matt 17. Let's put Matt 17 aside for now.