Is 'soul sleep' doctrinal?

[Guest DRS81]

On another note, it’s not “accepting Jesus into your heart” that brings salvation. It’s believing that Jesus is the Christ the Son of God that leads to salvation.

 

Believing is the action, accepting the Holy Spirit is the result. It's all about the heart Butch.

Romans 10:9 If you declare with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

[Butch5]

 

On another note, it’s not “accepting Jesus into your heart” that brings salvation. It’s believing that Jesus is the Christ the Son of God that leads to salvation.

 

Believing is the action, accepting the Holy Spirit is the result. It's all about the heart Butch.

Romans 10:9 If you declare with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

 

He said, that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God. There's nothing there or in Scripture that talks about accepting Jesus into your heart.

[Butch5]

Jeremiah 1:5 - Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

This scripture shows that Jeremiah was already with the Lord before God even formed his body in his mother's womb.  Also before Jeremiah was even born into this world God had set him apart to be a prophet.   The calling of God was upon Jeremiah before he was born.  We exist in spirit with God before we are even created within an earthly body.  We not only exist in spirit but we are with God and are known by God all before we are formed in our mother's womb.

 

This is another example of what I’ve been talking about. This passage say nothing about how a man is formed.  It says nothing about Jeremiah existing before he was born. That idea is being inferred from the statement “Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee;”

There is another way to understand this. God knew his plans for Jeremiah before he was created.  It could simply be that God knew His plans for Jeremiah before He formed him. This understanding doesn’t contradict any other passages of Scripture. You’re claim that Jeremiah existed before is his body contradicts multiple passages of Scripture. If an interpretation contradicts Scripture it’s incorrect.

Psalms 139:13-18 - For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother's womb.  I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made:  marvelous are thy works: and that my soul knoweth right well.  My "substance" was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, and curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth.  Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book all "my members" were written, which in continuance were fashioned, when as yet there was none of them.  How precious also are thy thoughts unto me, O God!  how great is the sum of them!  If I should count them, they are more in number than the sand: when I awake, I am still with thee.

King David said that his substance (strength and body) wasn't hid from God when his body was being formed in secret (mother's womb) in the earth.  He further states that God's eyes did see his body (substance) when he was still unperfect (before he was formed).  Also that in God's record book that there was a record of all the member parts of his body in which God fashioned and made for him "before"  he even existed in his body or before his body was even created.  King David as Jeremiah the prophet shows that we do exist in spirit with God and God knows us personally before he created a earthly body for us to live in while we were still inside of our mother's womb

.

 

The passage says substance, that not a spirit that’s a body. Unperfect doesn’t mean before he was formed, it mean incomplete.

I already mentioned in my post above a few of the scripture in this passage here.....

2 Corinthians 1-10 - FOR WE know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle (our bodies or body) were dissolved (dies) we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.  For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house (glorified bodies)which is from heaven:  If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked (without a body at his coming).  For we that are in this tabernacle (earthly bodies) do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed (without a body because of death) but clothed upon (with our glorified bodies), that mortality (death) might be swallowed up of life.  Now he that hath wrought us (created us) for this selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit (Isaiah 29:23; Ephesians 2:10; Romans 8:23; Ephesians 1:14).  Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, (still alive living in our earthly bodies) we are absent from the Lord.  (For we walk by faith, not by sight:),  We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.  Wherefore we labour that whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him. (Paul says he is willing and would rather be absent or out of his earthly body with all it's suffering and be present or in the prescence of the Lord).  For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.  (We will all stand before God and give account of the life we lived in our earthly bodies).

 

This passage actually says the exact opposite of what you’re claiming.  Paul is speaking of being clothed with bodies. One is corruptible and the other incorruptible. He speaks of the incorruptible body being put on over that corruptible. Notice he says,

2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:

3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked. (2Co 5:2-3 KJV)

He’s not looking to be  a ghost. He’s not looking to be naked (without a body). He’s looking to be overclothed, to put on the incorruptible body over the corruptible.

Here’s the definition of the Greek word that is translated “clothed upon”

 

1902 ἐπενδύομαι ependuomai {ep-en-doo'-om-ahee}

Meaning:  1) to put on over

 

It means to put on over. He’s talking about putting the incorruptible body over the coprruptible body. He’s not looking to put off the body.

You see, the Scriptures say that when a man dies he knows nothing.  In that case a man would know he was alive, then he would die and know nothing until the resurrection at which point he would be conscious. In that scenario all he would know is this life and the next thing he would know is that he is with the Lord. So, Paul’s statement makes perfect sense, He’s will to be absent from the body ( the corruptible one) and present with the Lord (in the incorruptible body). That’s exactly what he was saying just verses earlier about the two different bodies.

The basis of my argument is that there is nothing in Scripture that teaches man has a spirit other than the breath/spirit of God that we see in the creation of Adam. God formed him from the dust of the earth and breathed into him the breath/spirit of life and Adam “Became” a living soul. Scripture doesn’t teach any other spirit in a man, nothing.  So there is nothing that can live on after death. If you can make a case showing where the Scriptures teach this I’d be more than happy to look at it. However, all anyone does is give passages from which they’ve “inferred” the idea.  Just because something can be inferred from a passage doesn’t mean that that is what the passage is teaching. There’s nothing in the Scriptures with which an inductive argument can be made.

 

 

[Butch5]

 

 

According to the scripture there is a "distinction" between the body, the soul and the spirit.  Man is a three part being made up of a body, a soul and a spirit. 

 

1 Thessalonians 5:23 - And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray your "whole" spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord. 

 

So there is a distinction between the body and spirit in the scriptures as this verse shows.  

Actually, the Scriptures teach that man is a two part being. The body and spirit (breath of life) together became a living soul.  1+1=2.

 

 

Where are the Scriptures that teach that man is a two part being I would be interested in seeing them?  The scripture I posted above shows very clearly that man has a spirit, a soul and a body even though you might not want to accept the scripture.

 

Gen 2:7 describes the creation of man.  Ecc 3:18-22 describes the death of man. Ezekiel chapter 37 describes the resurrection of man.

 

KJV  Ezekiel 37:1 The hand of the LORD was upon me, and carried me out in the spirit of the LORD, and set me down in the midst of the valley which was full of bones,

2 And caused me to pass by them round about: and, behold, there were very many in the open valley; and, lo, they were very dry.

3 And he said unto me, Son of man, can these bones live? And I answered, O Lord GOD, thou knowest.

4 Again he said unto me, Prophesy upon these bones, and say unto them, O ye dry bones, hear the word of the LORD.

5 Thus saith the Lord GOD unto these bones; Behold, I will cause breath to enter into you, and ye shall live:

6 And I will lay sinews upon you, and will bring up flesh upon you, and cover you with skin, and put breath in you, and ye shall live; and ye shall know that I am the LORD.

7 So I prophesied as I was commanded: and as I prophesied, there was a noise, and behold a shaking, and the bones came together, bone to his bone.

8 And when I beheld, lo, the sinews and the flesh came up upon them, and the skin covered them above: but there was no breath in them.

9 Then said he unto me, Prophesy unto the wind, prophesy, son of man, and say to the wind, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe upon these slain, that they may live.

10 So I prophesied as he commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they lived, and stood up upon their feet, an exceeding great army.

11 Then he said unto me, Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel: behold, they say, Our bones are dried, and our hope is lost: we are cut off for our parts.

12 Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel.

13 And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves,

14 And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the LORD have spoken it, and performed it, saith the LORD. (Eze 37:1-14 KJV)

 

In this picture of the resurrection we see God bringing the bodies back together. Then He says, " and shall put my spirit in you and you shall live". Notice God didn't put "their" spirits back in them He put "HIs" spirit in them and they live. This is the same thing we see in Genesis 2:7 God formed the body and put "His" breath/spirit into Adam. It is "His" breath/spirit we see returning to God when man dies (Ecc 3).

[Guest DRS81]

 However, man doesn’t become immortal the moment he believes in Christ. Believers die therefore, they are not immortal.

 

You need to stop taking the word immortality out of context. It's amazing how you're doing that. Believers dying and funerals has nothing to do with it.

 

 Eternal life is simply being given life by God after the resurrection.

 

..because you accept Jesus Christ into your heart in this life. What's the point of God killing you, giving you no conscience, having you sleep, then resurrecting you again? That doesn't make any sense. When Jesus died and resurrected he conquered death and sin. Death is without conscience. So if Jesus conquered death and sin, then believers also conquered death and sin when they accepted Jesus into their hearts.

 

 

 

On another note, it’s not “accepting Jesus into your heart” that brings salvation. It’s believing that Jesus is the Christ the Son of God that leads to salvation.

 

Believing is the action, accepting the Holy Spirit is the result. It's all about the heart Butch.

Romans 10:9 If you declare with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

 

He said, that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God. There's nothing there or in Scripture that talks about accepting Jesus into your heart.

 

I don't understand, the scripture says if you believe in your heart.

[Butch5]

You need to stop taking the word immortality out of context. It's amazing how you're doing that. Believers dying and funerals has nothing to do with it.

 

It has everything to do with it. You’re espousing an existence that you cannot prove from Scripture. Where does Scripture teach that there is something in man that lives on between death and the resurrection?

[uote]..because you accept Jesus Christ into your heart in this life. What's the point of God killing you, giving you no conscience, having you sleep, then resurrecting you again? That doesn't make any sense. When Jesus died and resurrected he conquered death and sin. Death is without conscience. So if Jesus conquered death and sin, then believers also conquered death and sin when they accepted Jesus into their hearts.

 

Because death is wages of sin. Believers get victory over death at the resurrection.

53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. (1Co 15:53-54 KJV)

I don't understand, the scripture says if you believe in your heart

 

Yeah, believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead. It doesn’t say accept Him into your heart.

 

[Guest DRS81]

Where does Scripture teach that there is something in man that lives on between death and the resurrection?

 

I don't see any reason to spew out scripture when you've already made up your mind. Your outcome will never change if your belief stays the same.

 

Yeah, believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead. It doesn’t say accept Him into your heart.

 

Butch, believing IS accepting. It's the same thing..http://thesaurus.com/browse/believing

[Guest DRS81]

 ..

 

Two questions to ask you, you don't have to answer if you don't want to.

Do you believe Jesus is God deity and one with God, and do you believe the Holy Spirit is a force or a person? - DRS81

 

[Openly Curious]

 

 

 

Jeremiah 1:5 - Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

This scripture shows that Jeremiah was already with the Lord before God even formed his body in his mother's womb.  Also before Jeremiah was even born into this world God had set him apart to be a prophet.   The calling of God was upon Jeremiah before he was born.  We exist in spirit with God before we are even created within an earthly body.  We not only exist in spirit but we are with God and are known by God all before we are formed in our mother's womb.

 

This is another example of what I’ve been talking about. This passage say nothing about how a man is formed.  It says nothing about Jeremiah existing before he was born. That idea is being inferred from the statement “Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee;”

There is another way to understand this. God knew his plans for Jeremiah before he was created.  It could simply be that God knew His plans for Jeremiah before He formed him. This understanding doesn’t contradict any other passages of Scripture. You’re claim that Jeremiah existed before is his body contradicts multiple passages of Scripture. If an interpretation contradicts Scripture it’s incorrect.

 

Jeremiah did exist before his body was created within his mother's womb.  The passage of scripture clearly shows that God did know Jeremiah before he was born into this world.  If Jeremiah did not exist before he was born into this world then there is no way he could have been known by God because he wouldn't have existed in the mind of God.  But the passage clearly states the God knew Jeremiah before his body was formed within his mother's womb.  The fact that you are giving your own understanding to the scripture text proves that God knew Jeremiah before he was created.  As you acknowledge God's plan for Jeremiah as God has a purpose and plan for everyone before they are even created in the natural realm of things.   

[Guest DRS81]

Here are few other passages that use the word soul.

 

21 And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good. (Gen 1:21 KJV)

 

30 And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so. (Gen 1:30 KJV)

 

4 But flesh with the life thereof, which is the blood thereof, shall ye not eat. (Gen 9:4 KJV)

 

The word “Life” in this passage is “Nephesh” which is translated soul. From this we can see that the “soul” is in the blood. Blood refers to a physical body not something immaterial that exists apart from the body.

 

5 And surely your blood of your lives will I require; at the hand of every beast will I require it, and at the hand of man; at the hand of every man's brother will I require the life of man. (Gen 9:5 KJV)

 

Here it’s, your blood of your souls, so a soul has blood. It is a body that has blood not something immaterial apart from the body.

 

15 And I will remember my covenant, which is between me and you and every living creature of all flesh; and the waters shall no more become a flood to destroy all flesh. (Gen 9:15 KJV)

 

A soul has flesh.

 

13 Say, I pray thee, thou art my sister: that it may be well with me for thy sake; and my soul shall live because of thee. (Gen 12:13 KJV)

5 And all the souls that came out of the loins of Jacob were seventy souls: for Joseph was in Egypt already. (Exo 1:5 KJV)

 

2 Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, If a soul shall sin through ignorance against any of the commandments of the LORD concerning things which ought not to be done, and shall do against any of them: (Lev 4:2 KJV)

 

Souls can sin.

 

6 And there were certain men, who were defiled by the dead body of a man, that they could not keep the passover on that day: and they came before Moses and before Aaron on that day: (Num 9:6 KJV)

 

Here a soul can be dead.

 

6 No man shall take the nether or the upper millstone to pledge: for he taketh a man's life to pledge. (Deu 24:6 KJV)

 

37 And they took it, and smote it with the edge of the sword, and the king thereof, and all the cities thereof, and all the souls that were therein; he left none remaining, according to all that he had done to Eglon; but destroyed it utterly, and all the souls that were therein. (Jos 10:37 KJV)

 

Here souls can be killed with a sword.

 

25 Therefore I say unto you, Take no thought for your life, what ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink; nor yet for your body, what ye shall put on. Is not the life more than meat, and the body than raiment? (Mat 6:25 KJV)

 

Here souls eat and drink.

 

35 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel's, the same shall save it. (Mar 8:35 KJV)

 

Here a person can lose his soul.

 

9 Then said Jesus unto them, I will ask you one thing; Is it lawful on the sabbath days to do good, or to do evil? to save life, or to destroy it? (Luk 6:9 KJV)

 

Here souls can be destroyed.

 

11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep. (Joh 10:11 KJV)

 

Jesus laid down His soul for the sheep. Was He some kind of immaterial being that went to the cross or was it a physical body that lost its life on the cross?

 

27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. (Act 2:27 KJV)

Here we see Jesus’ soul was in the grave. That’s where the body goes.

 

I honestly don't even know where to start. How about you just ask the question. What scripture do you want me to focus on?