A little freaked out

[EnochBethany]

 

 

 

But friend, your vss do say,

1) complete eradication of the sin nature in this life by "sanctification" and also

2) nevertheless, such a person can "lose his salvation" & end up in the Lake of Fire

 

None of my vss say that at all.

As far as the Old Man, let me just quote some scriptures:

Romans 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

Note, that the old man is crucified with Him. That occurs at the point of salvation.

 

And thus it has nothing to do with a special category of elite Christians who have been "sanctified."

2 Cor 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Again, there is entire sanctification when we are saved. Some like to call this positional sanctification, but I dislike that term as I think it emphasis makes it sound like God views us as sanctified but it really isn't true. If the bible says it, I take it as truth, and there are too many verses which speak of us being a new creation using differing descriptions.

 

It is called positional based on the fact that it is due to being in Christ.  It is true, just as our being raised with Christ is also true, & our being seated on the right hand of God in Christ is true.  All these things that are true of our Head are true of all Christians.  But our condition is that we have not yet been raised from the dead.

Now pardon me for asking, & this is just a hypothetical:

If you were at the pearly gates wanting entrance to Heaven and you were asked why you should be let in, what would you say?

For the last question, the reason I will be let in is because of Jesus complete work.

 

Are you saying that because Christ paid for your sins on the cross, you should be forgiven & let in?

Without going ino the 'sin nature', sanctification means separation for a purpose. In the Temple there were vessels which were sanctified, separated for use of honoring God in the Temple. Identical vessels could have been made, but they were not sanctified, so there was nothing special about the vessels. What made them special was God. They had been separated, sanctified, for Gods purposes.

 

And they were not morally righteous, as inanimate objects.

Entire sanctification is separating people for Gods purposes. Sanctification means we are now new creations, no longer in Adam, but made new, sanctified for Gods purposes. This is done at salvation by God, with no work of our own. We were not partially sanctified. We were entirely sanctified for Gods purposes and we can not add to or take away from our new position.

Since that is a part of what God does in order to save us, there is no work, nothing, that we do to earn it.

 

Indeed true.

At this point I have given a verse saying that the old man is dead, co-crucified with Jesus. That we no longer live, Jesus lives in us. That we are new creations, which includes the old having past away.

Romans 6:6Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

Gal 2:20I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me.

2 Cor 5:17 Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come.

So far that is three verses.

Here is a new one, which says we are sanctified. Note, the tense in the following verse. It is not future, but now. We are sanctified:

1 Cor 1:2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both their's and our's:

1 Cor 6:11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

The following verse is really quite mind blowing:

Hebrews 10:14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

Yes, that verse actually says God has perfected those who are sanctified. Perfected means to be made whole. How were we made whole? The old man is dead and we are now new creations, made whole. Jesus lives in those who are born again, those who have received salvation.

 

Great truths.  But what does this have to do with the theories that

1) complete eradication of the sin nature in this life by "sanctification" and also

2) nevertheless, such a person can "lose his salvation" & end up in the Lake of Fire.

 

I was arguing against those 2 claims.  Now I am confused.  You reject them too?

 

The NT gives no indication that entire sanctification which we receive at salvation is in the future. The verses I gave are in the present tense. It is true of us now. We are new creations now. Our old man was crucified with Jesus. We are separated (sanctified) for Gods use and purposes right now.  Repeatedly scripture speaks of sanctification in the present tense, so moving that to the future alters plain scripture.

 

As far as the sin nature, the only translation which uses that term is the NIV. No other translation speaks about a sin nature. What you are supporting is a dual nature. A person can not be in Adam and in Jesus at the same time. It is one or the other. The sin nature is the Adamic nature.  A person can not be a son of the devil and a son of God at the same time.

 

As far as a person who is saved ending up in the lake of fire, that is impossible and unscriptural.  Entering into a discussion about eternal security is definitely off topic for this thread, so if you want that discussion, I would suggest you start a new thread.      

 

I confess to being confused as to what position you are defending. I thought you were defending the theological position that there is a 2nd blessing sanctification in this life in which the sin nature is eradicated, while also holding that such persons can end up in the Lake of Fire.

 

"Take away our bent to sinning,

Alpha & Omega be." Wesley

 

Maybe we are talking past each other.

 

Sanctification is presented in the Bible as past, present, progressive, & future.  I don't have the ambition at the moment to quote you all the scripture.  You can check a concordance & draw your own conclusions.  I can't believe that you don't think Christians can sin as totally sanctified when they are born again saved.

 

I spent many years studying the doctrine of Flesh, which occurs mostly in Paul's writings, sarx.  I came to the conclusion that it means the Old Human Adamic nature and the same thing as the Old Man.  I could not find any mutually exclusive characteristics between flesh & Old Man.  Both the flesh & the Old Man are said to have been virtually crucified.  But dead does not mean non-existent.  The flesh lusts (expresses strong desires) vs the Spirit & vice versa.  This is true of all Chrstians & cannot be escaped in this life.

 

I would not put "human nature" in a translation, since that is too interpretive.  The "human nature" interpretation of flesh is not a new interpretation; it has a long history.  IMHO, you either must interpret sarx (when it is responsible for sin) as the human nature, or as physical tissue (the body).   And I find the latter interpretation impossible.  Note that the works of the flesh are not all physical.

 

I am afraid that it would take me a lot of ink here to present my conclusions on this subject & defend them. 

 

The clearest passages I know of are Romans 6:18-19

 

Ἀνθρώπινον λέγω διὰ τὴν ἀσθένειαν τῆς σαρκὸς ὑμῶν.

the -in (-inos) suffix denotes adjective of material, only here the material is man-material.

 

and in  Ephesians 2:

 

the spirit that now works in

the sons of [expession denoting nature] disobedience;  among whom we also all once lived in

the lusts of our flesh, doing

the desires of the flesh even of the 

mind, and were

by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.

 

Have you heard of "the mind of the flesh"?

The mind of the flesh is enmity vs. God.

 

Note that in the past tense Christians crucified the flesh; but despite this crucifixion (death) the flesh still exists as an active force for evil -- the death of the Old Man & of the flesh is the same, due to Christ's crucifixion & our inclusion in His death.  There is no more ground to teach the annihilation of the Old Man than of the flesh; which certainly is not annihilated!

 

 But I say, Walk by the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.  17 For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are contrary the one to the other; that ye may not do the things that ye would.  18 But if ye are led by the Spirit, ye are not under the law.  19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these: fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,  20 idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousies, wraths, factions, divisions,  parties,  21 envyings, drunkenness, revellings, and such like; of which I  forewarn you, even as I did  forewarn you, that they who practise such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.  22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,  23 meekness, self-control; against such there is no law.  24 And they that are of Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with the passions and the lusts thereof.

 

Compare:

 our old man was crucified with him, that the body of sin might be done away, that so we should no longer be in bondage to sin;

 

Ephesians:  But ye did not so learn Christ;  21 if so be that ye heard him, and were taught in him, even as truth is in Jesus:  22 that ye put away, as concerning your former manner of life, the old man, that waxeth corrupt [right now the Old Man is active!] after the lusts of deceit;  23 and that ye be renewed in the spirit of your mind,  24 and put on the new man, that after God hath been created in righteousness and holiness of truth.

 

 14 But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof. Rom 13

 

In Eph it is new man vs old man;

In Rom 13 it is Christ vs flesh.

 

The parallelism between Old Man & flesh is too striking to deny they are something different.  Death means separation, not annihilation.  I see the Old Man = flesh as the Old Gestalt, Old Morphe of the Christian, hovering like a hostile ghost ready to spring into action & live, while the Christian suffers temporary death:  Awake thou that sleepest & Christ will shine upon thee.

 

I was alive apart from the law once, but when the commandment came, sin revived & I died. (Rom 7)  "I am carnal, sold under sin."  I see the Christian living A Dr Jekyl & Mr Hyde existence; the Dr. Jekyl aspect mediated by transformation.  Christians need transformation in the present tense, long after salvation -- Rom 12:1-2; 2 Cor 3:18; Eph 3:14-19.  Faith is the key to being filled to all the fullness of God, not always experienced.  Paul said he was in travail until Christ be FORMED (morphe) in his readers.  The Christ morphe was lacking in the readers!  Metamorphosis is something that requires daily attention, like Peter walking on the water.  Agents of mediating the transformation include the love of Christ which constrains & beholding God's glory as in a mirror (2 Cor 3:18).  In his law he mediates day & night (mirror = word of God).

 

Perhaps you should clarify just what your position is.

 

 

I will simply say that you are repeating things which are incorrect about my view. And things I have stated very clearly.

 

Christians are not living a Dr. Jekyl and Mr Hyde existence. Ot as I call it, good dog/bad dog  All I can say is if you believe what you are saying, then there can be no rest in Jesus as you constantly have to be fighting and working to suppress or overcome. That was the existance in the Mosaic covenant. A set of laws which had to be lived, and many desired to be obedient but had a nature contrary to the laws.

 

Metamorphisis as you call it is done by God, not us.

 

The question is, who are you. If you are a believer, born again, based on that, and all that it means, who are you now? From the moment before that happened to the moment after, had anything changed?     

 

Well, if you have stated your POV very clearly; pardon me for being confused.  Are you saying that Christians are completely sanctified in every sense when they are born again & saved in this life -- they never sin again?  I thought you were advocating 2nd Blessing sanctification -- was I wrong?  I feel like I am trying to nail jello to the wall with you.  Perhaps I misunderstood you from the start.

 

"Metamorphisis as you call it is done by God, not us."

 

Metamorphosis is not my calling it, but Biblical.  I recommend that you check out the Greek word morphe and the words from the root, morph-.  For example, Gal 4: 19 "My little children, of whom I am again in travail until Christ be formed in you—"  τέκνα μου, οὓς πάλιν ὠδίνω μέχρις οὗ μορφωθῇ Χριστὸς ἐν ὑμῖν·"

 

μορφωθῇ = morphothei, morph- = form, but reaching into the underlying nature of the form, as opposed to schema. 

 

2 Cor 3:18:

 

18 But we all, with unveiled face beholding as in a mirror the glory of YHWH, are transformed into the same image from glory to glory, even as from YHWH the Spirit." (my translation)

 

ἡμεῖς δὲ πάντες ἀνακεκαλυμμένῳ προσώπῳ τὴν δόξαν κυρίου κατοπτριζόμενοι τὴν αὐτὴν εἰκόνα μεταμορφούμεθα ἀπὸ δόξης εἰς δόξαν καθάπερ ἀπὸ κυρίου πνεύματος.

 

Do you see that word, μεταμορφούμεθα = μεταμορφ-ούμεθα metamorph-oumetha.

Metamorphosis a Biblical concept; transformation is a translation using Latin equivalents for the Greek metamorphosis. 

 

Yes, in a sense we are passive; this is the work of the Holy Spirit.  But we do have a part in its implementation.  Compare Eph 3:14-19, where the Christian's action is faith & the result is being filled to all the fullness of God, something which the Ephesians must have lacked.

 

Our task in 3 Cor 3:18 is to behold.  We pick up our mirror & gaze.  As we do this we are metamorphosized, transformed.  I take it that the mirror to use is the Word of God (see James).

 

Rom 12:1-2 gives a command to Christians to be transformed.  So there is a sense in which "It is finished" from the cross; but also a daily issue of transformation, which may or may not be realized. Or do you claim that Christians are sinlessly perfect already?

 

Best wishes,

 

BTW, I still don't understand if you trust the Lord Jesus as your Savior so that you know beyond a shadow of a doubt that you will end up in Heaven some day (or the New Earth)?  Do you believe that Jesus paid for all your sins on the cross & that given your trust in Him you have eternal life (unremovable eternal life)?

[EnochBethany]

Q asked: 

The question is, who are you. If you are a believer, born again, based on that, and all that it means, who are you now? From the moment before that happened to the moment after, had anything changed?    

 

I am a child of God.  One night I knelt by my bed and asked the Lord to take over my life & run it.  I had been a professed Christian, raised in a liberal denomination.  That night I began trusting the Lord Jesus as my Savior, as opposed to thinking of him as judge & doing the Mt 25 Sheep & Goat judgment on me.

 

Suddenly there was a change in my life, like from night to day.  Old things passed away, all became new.  I was able to love my neighbor as myself & even to love my enemies.  My trust is in the Lord Jesus who paid for my sins on the cross.  I have no confidence in my works whatsoever for salvation.  I am not sinlessly perfect; as James says, in many ways I stumble.  Sometimes my trust is in Christ in situation, and I walk on water.  I really love.  Other times I take my eyes off the Lord and act as the Old Man (Rom 7). 

 

Do you claim sinless perfection?  Are you exempt from Gal 5?  The flesh lusts vs the Spirit?

[Qnts2]

Q asked: 

The question is, who are you. If you are a believer, born again, based on that, and all that it means, who are you now? From the moment before that happened to the moment after, had anything changed?    

 

I am a child of God.  One night I knelt by my bed and asked the Lord to take over my life & run it.  I had been a professed Christian, raised in a liberal denomination.  That night I began trusting the Lord Jesus as my Savior, as opposed to thinking of him as judge & doing the Mt 25 Sheep & Goat judgment on me.

 

Suddenly there was a change in my life, like from night to day.  Old things passed away, all became new.  I was able to love my neighbor as myself & even to love my enemies.  My trust is in the Lord Jesus who paid for my sins on the cross.  I have no confidence in my works whatsoever for salvation.  I am not sinlessly perfect; as James says, in many ways I stumble.  Sometimes my trust is in Christ in situation, and I walk on water.  I really love.  Other times I take my eyes off the Lord and act as the Old Man (Rom 7). 

 

Do you claim sinless perfection?  Are you exempt from Gal 5?  The flesh lusts vs the Spirit?

 

I have repeatedly said, entire sanctification has absolutely nothing to do with the idea of sinless perfection (which is a false theology).  Sometimes a discussion is better off being over. 

[EnochBethany]

 

Q asked: 

The question is, who are you. If you are a believer, born again, based on that, and all that it means, who are you now? From the moment before that happened to the moment after, had anything changed?    

 

I am a child of God.  One night I knelt by my bed and asked the Lord to take over my life & run it.  I had been a professed Christian, raised in a liberal denomination.  That night I began trusting the Lord Jesus as my Savior, as opposed to thinking of him as judge & doing the Mt 25 Sheep & Goat judgment on me.

 

Suddenly there was a change in my life, like from night to day.  Old things passed away, all became new.  I was able to love my neighbor as myself & even to love my enemies.  My trust is in the Lord Jesus who paid for my sins on the cross.  I have no confidence in my works whatsoever for salvation.  I am not sinlessly perfect; as James says, in many ways I stumble.  Sometimes my trust is in Christ in situation, and I walk on water.  I really love.  Other times I take my eyes off the Lord and act as the Old Man (Rom 7). 

 

Do you claim sinless perfection?  Are you exempt from Gal 5?  The flesh lusts vs the Spirit?

 

I have repeatedly said, entire sanctification has absolutely nothing to do with the idea of sinless perfection (which is a false theology).  Sometimes a discussion is better off being over. 

 

I guess the digustion has been frustrating to us both.  I still really don't know what is your POV.

 

I do urge you to study sanctification in a concordance & see if you can validate the contention that sanctification is in 4 varieties:  1) past (at the point of regeneration), 2) present, 3) progressive, and 4) future.

 

And why not also study the words that have morph- in them (morphe, metamorph-).  Do you have a Greek lexicon?  And check out those passages, like 2 Cor 3:18. 

[Qnts2]

 

 

Q asked: 

The question is, who are you. If you are a believer, born again, based on that, and all that it means, who are you now? From the moment before that happened to the moment after, had anything changed?    

 

I am a child of God.  One night I knelt by my bed and asked the Lord to take over my life & run it.  I had been a professed Christian, raised in a liberal denomination.  That night I began trusting the Lord Jesus as my Savior, as opposed to thinking of him as judge & doing the Mt 25 Sheep & Goat judgment on me.

 

Suddenly there was a change in my life, like from night to day.  Old things passed away, all became new.  I was able to love my neighbor as myself & even to love my enemies.  My trust is in the Lord Jesus who paid for my sins on the cross.  I have no confidence in my works whatsoever for salvation.  I am not sinlessly perfect; as James says, in many ways I stumble.  Sometimes my trust is in Christ in situation, and I walk on water.  I really love.  Other times I take my eyes off the Lord and act as the Old Man (Rom 7). 

 

Do you claim sinless perfection?  Are you exempt from Gal 5?  The flesh lusts vs the Spirit?

 

I have repeatedly said, entire sanctification has absolutely nothing to do with the idea of sinless perfection (which is a false theology).  Sometimes a discussion is better off being over. 

 

I guess the digustion has been frustrating to us both.  I still really don't know what is your POV.

 

I do urge you to study sanctification in a concordance & see if you can validate the contention that sanctification is in 4 varieties:  1) past (at the point of regeneration), 2) present, 3) progressive, and 4) future.

 

And why not also study the words that have morph- in them (morphe, metamorph-).  Do you have a Greek lexicon?  And check out those passages, like 2 Cor 3:18. 

 

 

I have studied sanctification. I find entire sanctification to be very valid. It occurs at the point of 'regeneration' and is in the present. While there is progressive, there is no 'future' sanctification. 

 

I would suggest looking up the meaning of sanctification. And look in scripture for the way God describes those who are born again. Such as, they are holy, sons of God, etc.  

[EnochBethany]

Glad you include progressive, which is future to point of new birth, by definition.

 

Thou sayest: "

I have studied sanctification. I find entire sanctification to be very valid. It occurs at the point of 'regeneration' and is in the present. While there is progressive, there is no 'future' sanctification. 

 

Past & present sanctification do not rule out future:

 

Future Sanctification:

 

end of 1 Thes:

 

"And the God of peace himself sanctify you [born again believers] wholly [not yet done]

; and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved entire, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. [future event]  Faithful is he that calls you, who will [future] also do it."