Proof of GOD, (without attacking Old Earth or evolution)

[EnochBethany]

Should you prove God or accept His existence as self-evident, directly perceivable (Acts 17)?

[Enoch2021]

Should you prove God or accept His existence as self-evident, directly perceivable (Acts 17)?

 

For me personally it's COLOSSALLY Self-Evident; however, some may need a little more meat.

[EnochBethany]

 

Should you prove God or accept His existence as self-evident, directly perceivable (Acts 17)?

 

For me personally it's COLOSSALLY Self-Evident; however, some may need a little more meat.

 

So far as I know there are 2 approaches to apologetics

1) empirical

2) self-evident.

 

I welcome someone to educate me if there be a 3rd.

Under empirical, Fulfilled prophecy is the best I know, aside from telling persons to consider creation.  But for me, I am more sure of God's existence by direct perception than I am by any other thing.

[Donibm]

This Question/Subject was asked on a different Thread and I felt was the Quintessential Question and a Great Topic for the Forum's Namesake.

 

 

There are only 2 choices as to HOW we are here: Random Chance "nature" or Intelligent Design "GOD". 

 

If you ascribe sentience and intelligence to the Universe and "nature" is your choice, then you have three minor hurdles to negotiate; namely,  Abiogenesis, the 1st/2nd Laws of Thermodynamics(1LOT/2LOT) "Pillars of Science", and Information.  Allow me to explain....

 

1.)  Abiogenesis, the cornerstone/foundation of LIFE, is IMPOSSIBLE by any "natural" process... denoted via 1LOT/2LOT, the Laws of Chemistry/Biochemistry, Laws of Information and Specific Complexity.  SEE: Law of Biogenesis

 

2.) 1st Law of Thermodynamics (1LOT "Pillar of Science"): The total amount of mass-energy in the universe is constant.

     2nd Law of Thermodynamics (2LOT "Pillar of Science"): The amount of energy available for work is running out,  and the Universe is moving inexorably to "Maximum Entropy" or Heat Death.

 

If the total amount of mass-energy is constant, and the amount of usable energy is decreasing, then the universe cannot have existed forever, otherwise it would already have exhausted all usable energy—the ‘heat death’ of the universe.

 

You have only three options:

 

1. The Universe has always existed (in Violation of the Second Law of Thermodynamics);

2. The Universe created itself (in Violation of the First Law of Thermodynamics); or

3. The Universe was Created by GOD.

 

 

3.)  Information (DNA):  Since Matter (atoms/molecules) carry no Information intrinsically, You have to be able to explain "How Stupid Atoms Wrote Their Own Software?"

So this isn't a case where we "don't have the answers yet" we do and in "natures" case these barriers are Laughingly Insurmountable.

 

DNA is a 4-bit self replicating, error correcting/modifying Encrypted Code.  It's "Specific Complexity" is unrivaled in the known Universe.....

“DNA is like a computer program but far, far more advanced than any software ever created.”

Bill Gates, The Road Ahead

 

‘We now know that the secret of life lies not with the chemical ingredients as such, but with the logical structure and organisational arrangement of the molecules. … Like a supercomputer, life is an information processing system. … It is the software of the living cell that is the real mystery, not the hardware.’ But where did it come from?  ‘How did stupid atoms spontaneously write their own software? … Nobody knows … ’.

Davies, P., Life force, New Scientist 163(2204):27–30, 18 September 1999.

 

CODE only comes from Intelligence.  Also, Information is Mass-less (atoms/molecules carry no information intrinsically)....

That also means that Information/Software (The Real You) being Mass-less is also TIMELESS or Eternal.    Now that's Profound!!

 

"The meaning of the message will not be found in the physics and chemistry of the paper and ink" -Roger Sperry (neurobiologist and Nobel laureate)

Saying well, "Atoms/Molecules created Life or the Information/Software"... would be Tantamount to ascribing authorship of War and Peace to Ink Molecules!

 

 

4.)  Well taking our thesis with 1LOT....the GOD who created 1LOT must be outside of Time and not bound by it's Laws: Holy Scripture confirms this....

 

(Isaiah 57:15) "For thus saith the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity, whose name is Holy;..."

Eternity is not someplace with Lots of Time....it's the Absence of Time.

 

(Isaiah 46:10) "Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:"

 

(2 Peter 3:8) "But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day."

This IMHO, is a Rhetorical Device (Metaphors, Similes, Idioms, Types, Allegories) of which there are over 200 styles in the Holy Bible.  I hear people quote the first half of this verse and arrive @ a Literal conclusion (a Day = a Thousand Years).  Taking the Whole Verse...this clearly is conveying HIS TIMELESSNESS.

 

So if HE is outside of time and able to declare "End from the Beginning", can we test this Empirically?.... Yes; PROPHECY.  And ALL must be 100% accurate without failure.  By a conservative count there are over 1800 Specific Prophecies in the Holy Bible.  85% of them have come to pass with 100% accuracy without Failure.  The last 15% or so are yet future....Revelation.  There are Prophecies throughout Scripture but the mother-load IMHO are in the Book Of Daniel.  Among 100's detailing (Babylon, Medo-Persia: Cyrus The Great, Greece: Alexander the Great and his 4 Generals, and Romans) He details approx 300 years of secular history beforehand between the Ptolemaic and Seleucid Empires. The most Breath Taking of all Prophecies IMHO Daniel 9:25: The Angel Gabriel foretells...to the the EXACT DAY, 500 years beforehand, of Christ's Triumphal Entry into Jerusalem.

 

 

If you're on the Fence....It's TIME to face this Head On!!  For you don't know when you'll take your Last Breath. 

 

HE'S Calling You!!! 

 

For even the very hairs on your head are all numbered!!!!  Do you think we are talking here by Random Chance??

 

Humble Yourself Before HIM and HE will LIFT YOU UP!!  It's ABSOLUTELY FREE!!  PAID IN FULL!!

 

 

(John 14:6) "Jesus saith unto him,  I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me."

 

(Revelation 21:6) "And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely."

 

 

AMEN, PRAISE THE LORD!!!!!

 

This Question/Subject was asked on a different Thread and I felt was the Quintessential Question and a Great Topic for the Forum's Namesake.

 

 

There are only 2 choices as to HOW we are here: Random Chance "nature" or Intelligent Design "GOD". 

 

If you ascribe sentience and intelligence to the Universe and "nature" is your choice, then you have three minor hurdles to negotiate; namely,  Abiogenesis, the 1st/2nd Laws of Thermodynamics(1LOT/2LOT) "Pillars of Science", and Information.  Allow me to explain....

 

1.)  Abiogenesis, the cornerstone/foundation of LIFE, is IMPOSSIBLE by any "natural" process... denoted via 1LOT/2LOT, the Laws of Chemistry/Biochemistry, Laws of Information and Specific Complexity.  SEE: Law of Biogenesis

 

2.) 1st Law of Thermodynamics (1LOT "Pillar of Science"): The total amount of mass-energy in the universe is constant.

     2nd Law of Thermodynamics (2LOT "Pillar of Science"): The amount of energy available for work is running out,  and the Universe is moving inexorably to "Maximum Entropy" or Heat Death.

 

If the total amount of mass-energy is constant, and the amount of usable energy is decreasing, then the universe cannot have existed forever, otherwise it would already have exhausted all usable energy—the ‘heat death’ of the universe.

 

You have only three options:

 

1. The Universe has always existed (in Violation of the Second Law of Thermodynamics);

2. The Universe created itself (in Violation of the First Law of Thermodynamics); or

3. The Universe was Created by GOD.

 

 

3.)  Information (DNA):  Since Matter (atoms/molecules) carry no Information intrinsically, You have to be able to explain "How Stupid Atoms Wrote Their Own Software?"

So this isn't a case where we "don't have the answers yet" we do and in "natures" case these barriers are Laughingly Insurmountable.

 

DNA is a 4-bit self replicating, error correcting/modifying Encrypted Code.  It's "Specific Complexity" is unrivaled in the known Universe.....

“DNA is like a computer program but far, far more advanced than any software ever created.”

Bill Gates, The Road Ahead

 

‘We now know that the secret of life lies not with the chemical ingredients as such, but with the logical structure and organisational arrangement of the molecules. … Like a supercomputer, life is an information processing system. … It is the software of the living cell that is the real mystery, not the hardware.’ But where did it come from?  ‘How did stupid atoms spontaneously write their own software? … Nobody knows … ’.

Davies, P., Life force, New Scientist 163(2204):27–30, 18 September 1999.

 

CODE only comes from Intelligence.  Also, Information is Mass-less (atoms/molecules carry no information intrinsically)....

That also means that Information/Software (The Real You) being Mass-less is also TIMELESS or Eternal.    Now that's Profound!!

 

"The meaning of the message will not be found in the physics and chemistry of the paper and ink" -Roger Sperry (neurobiologist and Nobel laureate)

Saying well, "Atoms/Molecules created Life or the Information/Software"... would be Tantamount to ascribing authorship of War and Peace to Ink Molecules!

 

 

4.)  Well taking our thesis with 1LOT....the GOD who created 1LOT must be outside of Time and not bound by it's Laws: Holy Scripture confirms this....

 

(Isaiah 57:15) "For thus saith the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity, whose name is Holy;..."

Eternity is not someplace with Lots of Time....it's the Absence of Time.

 

(Isaiah 46:10) "Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:"

 

(2 Peter 3:8) "But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day."

This IMHO, is a Rhetorical Device (Metaphors, Similes, Idioms, Types, Allegories) of which there are over 200 styles in the Holy Bible.  I hear people quote the first half of this verse and arrive @ a Literal conclusion (a Day = a Thousand Years).  Taking the Whole Verse...this clearly is conveying HIS TIMELESSNESS.

 

So if HE is outside of time and able to declare "End from the Beginning", can we test this Empirically?.... Yes; PROPHECY.  And ALL must be 100% accurate without failure.  By a conservative count there are over 1800 Specific Prophecies in the Holy Bible.  85% of them have come to pass with 100% accuracy without Failure.  The last 15% or so are yet future....Revelation.  There are Prophecies throughout Scripture but the mother-load IMHO are in the Book Of Daniel.  Among 100's detailing (Babylon, Medo-Persia: Cyrus The Great, Greece: Alexander the Great and his 4 Generals, and Romans) He details approx 300 years of secular history beforehand between the Ptolemaic and Seleucid Empires. The most Breath Taking of all Prophecies IMHO Daniel 9:25: The Angel Gabriel foretells...to the the EXACT DAY, 500 years beforehand, of Christ's Triumphal Entry into Jerusalem.

 

 

If you're on the Fence....It's TIME to face this Head On!!  For you don't know when you'll take your Last Breath. 

 

HE'S Calling You!!! 

 

For even the very hairs on your head are all numbered!!!!  Do you think we are talking here by Random Chance??

 

Humble Yourself Before HIM and HE will LIFT YOU UP!!  It's ABSOLUTELY FREE!!  PAID IN FULL!!

 

 

(John 14:6) "Jesus saith unto him,  I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me."

 

(Revelation 21:6) "And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely."

 

 

AMEN, PRAISE THE LORD!!!!!

 

 

 

Here is the thing.

 

They refuse to accept "intelligent design" ... right?  But since they can't prove anything, Richard Dawkins now says that ALIENS created all we know.

 

Well, hang on. 

 

You don't believe in "intelligent design" ... but now you DO ... but only if "God" is not part of it?

 

So, we didn't come from monkeys, we came from ... aliens now?

 

 

 

 

Evolution isn't even a science.  it cannot be observed or recorded.

 

REAL SCIENCE tends to show the Bible true.

 

But, in the last 2-5 years, the distraction of "evolution THEORY" is what has fooled many people into thinking that Science disagrees with the Bible, but that's not true.  Science and the Bible do agree. 

[Enoch2021]

Here is the thing.

 

They refuse to accept "intelligent design" ... right?  But since they can't prove anything, Richard Dawkins now says that ALIENS created all we know.

 

Well, hang on. 

 

You don't believe in "intelligent design" ... but now you DO ... but only if "God" is not part of it?

 

So, we didn't come from monkeys, we came from ... aliens now?

 

 

Evolution isn't even a science.  it cannot be observed or recorded.

 

REAL SCIENCE tends to show the Bible true.

 

But, in the last 2-5 years, the distraction of "evolution THEORY" is what has fooled many people into thinking that Science disagrees with the Bible, but that's not true.  Science and the Bible do agree. 

 

 

 

Sad.....but, True

[jerryR34]

 

Should you prove God or accept His existence as self-evident, directly perceivable (Acts 17)?

 

For me personally it's COLOSSALLY Self-Evident; however, some may need a little more meat.

 

Well, when you use words like that, and in BOLD even, then it's obvious we don't need scientific evidence. 

[Enoch2021]

 

 

Should you prove God or accept His existence as self-evident, directly perceivable (Acts 17)?

 

For me personally it's COLOSSALLY Self-Evident; however, some may need a little more meat.

 

Well, when you use words like that, and in BOLD even, then it's obvious we don't need scientific evidence. 

 

 

 

Well ME Personally is the Antecedent of which I qualified just after COLOSSALLY with....... "some may need a little more meat".  <-----------  See It?

[EnochBethany]

 

 

 

Should you prove God or accept His existence as self-evident, directly perceivable (Acts 17)?

 

For me personally it's COLOSSALLY Self-Evident; however, some may need a little more meat.

 

Well, when you use words like that, and in BOLD even, then it's obvious we don't need scientific evidence. 

 

 

 

Well ME Personally is the Antecedent of which I qualified just after COLOSSALLY with....... "some may need a little more meat".  <-----------  See It?

 

You mean the 'ol "Argument Weak, shout here" in the margin of a debater's text?  But I don't mind caps; they are an alternate font of emphasis, & they certainly do not bother my ears.

[Enoch2021]

 

 

 

 

Should you prove God or accept His existence as self-evident, directly perceivable (Acts 17)?

 

For me personally it's COLOSSALLY Self-Evident; however, some may need a little more meat.

 

Well, when you use words like that, and in BOLD even, then it's obvious we don't need scientific evidence. 

 

 

 

Well ME Personally is the Antecedent of which I qualified just after COLOSSALLY with....... "some may need a little more meat".  <-----------  See It?

 

You mean the 'ol "Argument Weak, shout here" in the margin of a debater's text?  But I don't mind caps; they are an alternate font of emphasis, & they certainly do not bother my ears.

 

 

I bold and change colors just for emphasis or to set apart.  There is no emotional connotation from my end, Whatsoever.

 

And, it gives the post some personality 

[EnochBethany]

 

 

 

 

 

Should you prove God or accept His existence as self-evident, directly perceivable (Acts 17)?

 

For me personally it's COLOSSALLY Self-Evident; however, some may need a little more meat.

 

Well, when you use words like that, and in BOLD even, then it's obvious we don't need scientific evidence. 

 

 

 

Well ME Personally is the Antecedent of which I qualified just after COLOSSALLY with....... "some may need a little more meat".  <-----------  See It?

 

You mean the 'ol "Argument Weak, shout here" in the margin of a debater's text?  But I don't mind caps; they are an alternate font of emphasis, & they certainly do not bother my ears.

 

 

I bold and change colors just for emphasis or to set apart.  There is no emotional connotation from my end, Whatsoever.

 

And, it gives the post some personality 

 

Well, I like it -- so for me; keep it up!