To cover or not to cover ?

[EnochBethany]

In today's culture,we no longer view a woman's wearing of a head covering as a sign of submission.It is only a personal choice.It has nothing to do with spirituality.God is way more concerned with the attitude of submission.It is more important to God that women wear modest clothing 1 Timothy 2:9-10

The issue is not culture.  The text apparently goes vs Jewish culture in telling men not to cover their heads when praying.  Look at the text, none of the 4 reasons given is cultural.

[EnochBethany]

This passage is perhaps the most flagrantly disobeyed passage in the Bible by professed Christians nowadays.  If you care, read the passage & list the 4 reasons for women to cover heads in church service.  Similarly, 1 Cor 14 tells women to be silent in church; that one is often violated as well.

 

IMHO, this disobedience is driven by our culture in which women demand equality with men.  And of course in the Bible they are equal.  But there are different roles in life.

 

Some years ago, I believe that if a woman walked into a RCC sanctuary, some nun was likely to throw a doily over her head.  But I think this is no longer either.  Women used to wear hats to church.  On Easter one might see quite a display of Easter bonnets. 

[EnochBethany]

Butero,

 

You didn't answer the question.

 

Can a women who is a cancer patient with no or short hair be fully submitted to God?

 

I say yes. That's the heart of what Paul is talking about, submission. Hair or no hair it will all burn up as will everything of the flesh, but remaining fully submitted to God or Not, now that is forever, that matters. Because if you are not submitted to God you are in rebellion to God. So, one more time.

 

Can a women who is a cancer patient with no or short hair be fully submitted to God?

Biblical ethics are hierarchical.  Some rules are more important than others.  Love neighbor as self trumps the lesser rules.  When David was famished, he rightly ate show bread, restricted to priests.  What the Lord really cares about is that we love Him & brothers.

[EnochBethany]

 

Butero,

 

First, I don't seem to be able to use the quote button, so sorry.

 

You can't have it both ways. Either they have to follow it or they don't. If they don't follow it and submit this way then they are in rebellion. Submit and follow to the letter or you are in rebellion. That leads to of course how long is long hair. We would have to have this done to the millimeter otherwise we are disobeying and in rebellion. The bible is clear no person in rebellion can go to heaven. If someone in rebellion can go to heaven I would love for you to show me. Ignorance of the word is not an excuse the bible is clear about that as well ( OT ). You either submit or are in rebellion. The word is clear it is one or the other, but never both...... Hey.....wait a second.....I just had a thought.....

 

You know this starting to sound more and more like following the law instead of grace. Maybe, just maybe this is just about submission to God from the heart. The holy Spirit leads us all into the truth, and only Jesus is truth. But He doesn't hit us all with everything at once, but rather one step at a time leads us gently to a closer walk with him, becoming more and more like him everyday. Where as one may be further down that road than another, well....who is to say, for it is God that sees the heart. The heart where submission must begin. So, I am sorry but I must go back to my first post, Following the word starts in the heart. The Lord through the Holy Spirit guides each and everyone of us. Where the phrases were more concerned about following the list of do's and don'ts, Jesus made clear it starts with the heart. To follow a list blindly serves no purpose if it isn't in the heart. It is a about submission in the heart first. May each follow as the Holy Spirit guides us to him.

 

Firestormx

I don't believe like you do about grace.  I can already see that.  I don't believe that grace allows us to live anyway we want.  I believe we must have grace to make it to heaven because nobody can live 100 percent up to God's standard of holiness, but I also believe that true faith will lead to good works, and that grace without works is dead, as is taught in the book of James.  I believe Jesus when he said he didn't come to do away with the law, but to fulfill the law. 

 

In the case of hair as a covering, it is unique in that the Bible states that you can disobey this teaching and not be in sin.  Perhaps another way of saying this is to mention how there are sins unto death and sins that are not unto death.  That is also taught in the New Testament.  I believe we should strive to follow all Biblical teachings, including this one, but I don't believe you will wind up in hell for being contentious, in this one matter.  Now I find myself referencing verse 16. 

 

Is there anything that may happen because a person is contentious and refused to obey this scripture?  I don't believe it will cause the person to go to hell, but what exactly does it mean when it mentions the angels?  When a man or woman doesn't have the sign of authority on their head, does it put them in any kind of spiritual danger?  I am not sure, because people don't know for sure what that reference means.  I have my own thoughts on it, but even I am not 100 percent sure. 

 

You say, "I don't believe that grace allows us to live anyway we want. "

 

IMHO, when grace is fully & properly active in our lives, generally we live any way we want, because what we want is to love God & neighbor & we want to do exactly what the Lord wants, for we are filled unto all the fullness of God & filled with His Spirit abiding in Christ.  Still on some level we may have a Garden of Gethsemane experience when it is "Not what I will, but what You will, Lord."

 

[firestormx]

 

Butero,

 

You didn't answer the question.

 

Can a women who is a cancer patient with no or short hair be fully submitted to God?

 

I say yes. That's the heart of what Paul is talking about, submission. Hair or no hair it will all burn up as will everything of the flesh, but remaining fully submitted to God or Not, now that is forever, that matters. Because if you are not submitted to God you are in rebellion to God. So, one more time.

 

Can a women who is a cancer patient with no or short hair be fully submitted to God?

Biblical ethics are hierarchical.  Some rules are more important than others.  Love neighbor as self trumps the lesser rules.  When David was famished, he rightly ate show bread, restricted to priests.  What the Lord really cares about is that we love Him & brothers.

 

Jesus speaks of this principle more in Matt. 23:23-25 if I am not mistaken. but I have never studied this out to be honest.

[Guest Butero]

Butero,

 

Don't see it as me trying to be contentious. I don't mean to be. I got hurt and really confused by someone once, over the whole law vs. grace question. Jesus said if we love him we will obey him. I don't think he meant obey in a few things, and do what we want in the rest. But if we truly love him we will obey in all things. For all things are possible to those who believe, even obedience to God through Jesus Christ. But because of how I was hurt over the law. Because of how messed up I got over it, I am really hesitant to say this must be obeyed or else. Instead I would rather First, look at the heart of what is being taught, then the letter. Trusting God through the Holy Spirit in the Name Jesus Christ to lead me into all truth and obedience. For if I can trust Jesus to lead me to obedience in the heart of what is being taught then the letter, then I believe I can trust God to do the same for everyone else. It reminds me of how people say God is different in the old testament than the new. But if you look back at Genesis and the story of the Flood. It talks about when God is grieved that he made man, it is because of the HEART of man and what is in his HEART. Even then God looked at the Heart First. He doesn't change. Heart following Jesus first, then everything else will follow unto obedience of the word in Jesus Christ. It starts with the Heart.   

Thanks for clearing that up.  I believe that it is because of our faith, we live the way we should.  We can't just decide to follow the law and expect that will save us.  Salvation is only possible through faith in Christ. 

[firestormx]

 

Butero,

 

Don't see it as me trying to be contentious. I don't mean to be. I got hurt and really confused by someone once, over the whole law vs. grace question. Jesus said if we love him we will obey him. I don't think he meant obey in a few things, and do what we want in the rest. But if we truly love him we will obey in all things. For all things are possible to those who believe, even obedience to God through Jesus Christ. But because of how I was hurt over the law. Because of how messed up I got over it, I am really hesitant to say this must be obeyed or else. Instead I would rather First, look at the heart of what is being taught, then the letter. Trusting God through the Holy Spirit in the Name Jesus Christ to lead me into all truth and obedience. For if I can trust Jesus to lead me to obedience in the heart of what is being taught then the letter, then I believe I can trust God to do the same for everyone else. It reminds me of how people say God is different in the old testament than the new. But if you look back at Genesis and the story of the Flood. It talks about when God is grieved that he made man, it is because of the HEART of man and what is in his HEART. Even then God looked at the Heart First. He doesn't change. Heart following Jesus first, then everything else will follow unto obedience of the word in Jesus Christ. It starts with the Heart.

Thanks for clearing that up.  I believe that it is because of our faith, we live the way we should.  We can't just decide to follow the law and expect that will save us.  Salvation is only possible through faith in Christ.

 

I was young in the faith and they were using the Hebrew and the law, and making it sound like Jesus was saying we had to keep the law in every point the only difference was Christ was the sacrifice if we messed up, but that we should be able to keep all the word if Jesus was really in us. Because Jesus kept the word perfectly, if he was really in us, so would we. I got so messed up over it I almost walked away from the faith. the weight of keeping all the do's and don'ts was something I knew I couldn't ever do. I felt like there was no way to get it right, and that I was doomed to fail no matter what. I got messed up quick and it took a long time to get straightened back out. It took a long time for me to be able to really understand that I can and won't ever do anything to save myself. I can't do anything to keep myself saved. That my salvation in it's entirety is in Jesus Christ. I am saved because of him, I stay saved because of him, not because of anything I do. But since He does save me and keep me saved by his Grace, then I obey from a position of joy and thanks and love, or through him I obey. The heart first, then obedience. I am glad it is more clear now. If we love Jesus we will obey him, for we are only saved in him. I have enjoyed our conversation. God bless you.

[Guest Butero]

 

 

Butero,

 

Don't see it as me trying to be contentious. I don't mean to be. I got hurt and really confused by someone once, over the whole law vs. grace question. Jesus said if we love him we will obey him. I don't think he meant obey in a few things, and do what we want in the rest. But if we truly love him we will obey in all things. For all things are possible to those who believe, even obedience to God through Jesus Christ. But because of how I was hurt over the law. Because of how messed up I got over it, I am really hesitant to say this must be obeyed or else. Instead I would rather First, look at the heart of what is being taught, then the letter. Trusting God through the Holy Spirit in the Name Jesus Christ to lead me into all truth and obedience. For if I can trust Jesus to lead me to obedience in the heart of what is being taught then the letter, then I believe I can trust God to do the same for everyone else. It reminds me of how people say God is different in the old testament than the new. But if you look back at Genesis and the story of the Flood. It talks about when God is grieved that he made man, it is because of the HEART of man and what is in his HEART. Even then God looked at the Heart First. He doesn't change. Heart following Jesus first, then everything else will follow unto obedience of the word in Jesus Christ. It starts with the Heart.

Thanks for clearing that up.  I believe that it is because of our faith, we live the way we should.  We can't just decide to follow the law and expect that will save us.  Salvation is only possible through faith in Christ.

 

I was young in the faith and they were using the Hebrew and the law, and making it sound like Jesus was saying we had to keep the law in every point the only difference was Christ was the sacrifice if we messed up, but that we should be able to keep all the word if Jesus was really in us. Because Jesus kept the word perfectly, if he was really in us, so would we. I got so messed up over it I almost walked away from the faith. the weight of keeping all the do's and don'ts was something I knew I couldn't ever do. I felt like there was no way to get it right, and that I was doomed to fail no matter what. I got messed up quick and it took a long time to get straightened back out. It took a long time for me to be able to really understand that I can and won't ever do anything to save myself. I can't do anything to keep myself saved. That my salvation in it's entirety is in Jesus Christ. I am saved because of him, I stay saved because of him, not because of anything I do. But since He does save me and keep me saved by his Grace, then I obey from a position of joy and thanks and love, or through him I obey. The heart first, then obedience. I am glad it is more clear now. If we love Jesus we will obey him, for we are only saved in him. I have enjoyed our conversation. God bless you.

 

May the Lord bless you too.  I know we can't keep the entire law.  Some of it doesn't even apply to us because it was dealing with the Levitical priesthood and laws of separation for the Jews.  It is easy to get mixed up when it comes to the law and grace.  Anyway, I am glad you were able to get things settled in your head.  I was having trouble figuring it out, and I had to seek God about it.  The answer I got was that we aren't saved by keeping the law.  We are saved through our faith in Christ, but those who truly have faith will live right.  Those who have no change in their life aren't really living by faith, but are only deceiving themselves. 

[EnochBethany]

 

 

Butero,

 

Don't see it as me trying to be contentious. I don't mean to be. I got hurt and really confused by someone once, over the whole law vs. grace question. Jesus said if we love him we will obey him. I don't think he meant obey in a few things, and do what we want in the rest. But if we truly love him we will obey in all things. For all things are possible to those who believe, even obedience to God through Jesus Christ. But because of how I was hurt over the law. Because of how messed up I got over it, I am really hesitant to say this must be obeyed or else. Instead I would rather First, look at the heart of what is being taught, then the letter. Trusting God through the Holy Spirit in the Name Jesus Christ to lead me into all truth and obedience. For if I can trust Jesus to lead me to obedience in the heart of what is being taught then the letter, then I believe I can trust God to do the same for everyone else. It reminds me of how people say God is different in the old testament than the new. But if you look back at Genesis and the story of the Flood. It talks about when God is grieved that he made man, it is because of the HEART of man and what is in his HEART. Even then God looked at the Heart First. He doesn't change. Heart following Jesus first, then everything else will follow unto obedience of the word in Jesus Christ. It starts with the Heart.

Thanks for clearing that up.  I believe that it is because of our faith, we live the way we should.  We can't just decide to follow the law and expect that will save us.  Salvation is only possible through faith in Christ.

 

I was young in the faith and they were using the Hebrew and the law, and making it sound like Jesus was saying we had to keep the law in every point the only difference was Christ was the sacrifice if we messed up, but that we should be able to keep all the word if Jesus was really in us. Because Jesus kept the word perfectly, if he was really in us, so would we. I got so messed up over it I almost walked away from the faith. the weight of keeping all the do's and don'ts was something I knew I couldn't ever do. I felt like there was no way to get it right, and that I was doomed to fail no matter what. I got messed up quick and it took a long time to get straightened back out. It took a long time for me to be able to really understand that I can and won't ever do anything to save myself. I can't do anything to keep myself saved. That my salvation in it's entirety is in Jesus Christ. I am saved because of him, I stay saved because of him, not because of anything I do. But since He does save me and keep me saved by his Grace, then I obey from a position of joy and thanks and love, or through him I obey. The heart first, then obedience. I am glad it is more clear now. If we love Jesus we will obey him, for we are only saved in him. I have enjoyed our conversation. God bless you.

 

"I was young in the faith and they were using the Hebrew and the law, and making it sound like Jesus was saying we had to keep the law in every point the only difference was Christ was the sacrifice if we messed up, but that we should be able to keep all the word if Jesus was really in us."

 

The Lord Jesus did say that the Law must be kept in every point; but He did not say, WE had to keep the Law.  He was addressing Israel; as you may know the Law ended at the cross.

 

" I am saved because of him, I stay saved because of him, not because of anything I do. But since He does save me and keep me saved by his Grace, then I obey from a position of joy and thanks and love, or through him I obey. "

 

Amen, Bro

[saved34]

Great post Firestorm. I think most Christians come to that great Red sea of life where they have to trust God for salvation, period. There is no condemnation to those in Christ Jesus. It's amazing what transformation can happen in one's life when embracing the gift of God in Christ Jesus. Knowing your debt to God is paid in full by the precious blood of Christ, and that his sole purpose is to advocate on our behalf. 

 

Anything short of full reliance and trust in Christ's finished work will lead to defeat and disappointment in our everyday walk.