nebula Posted March 2, 2014 Group: Royal Member Followers: 10 Topic Count: 5,823 Topics Per Day: 0.75 Content Count: 45,870 Content Per Day: 5.94 Reputation: 1,897 Days Won: 83 Joined: 03/22/2003 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/19/1970 Share Posted March 2, 2014 Putin doesn't think that Obama has teeth, but what if Obama is pushed by circumstances and his own military to bite.... He doesn't and he won't. However, if the things you say are true, it wouldn't be Obama's call to make, and he wouldn't be making the decisions but merely doing what he's being influenced to do, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MorningGlory Posted March 2, 2014 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 1,022 Topics Per Day: 0.16 Content Count: 39,193 Content Per Day: 6.09 Reputation: 9,977 Days Won: 78 Joined: 10/01/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted March 2, 2014 We have no dog in this fight; Obama can warn against such foolishness but, let's face it, it's between Ukraine and Russia. Ukraine is not a member of NATO so our obligations, and Europe's, are minimal. It doesn't matter how Putin perceives American resolve. No matter who is in the White House, American troops are NOT going to that region....just as they didn't go to Georgia seven years ago. Our best bet is economic pressure, just as Reagan did thirty years ago. The Russian economy is their achilles heel and a drop in oil prices hits them right where it hurts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve_S Posted March 2, 2014 Group: Servant Followers: 25 Topic Count: 275 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 5,208 Content Per Day: 0.99 Reputation: 1,893 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/02/2010 Status: Offline Share Posted March 2, 2014 We have no dog in this fight; Obama can warn against such foolishness but, let's face it, it's between Ukraine and Russia. Ukraine is not a member of NATO so our obligations, and Europe's, are minimal. It doesn't matter how Putin perceives American resolve. No matter who is in the White House, American troops are NOT going to that region....just as they didn't go to Georgia seven years ago. Our best bet is economic pressure, just as Reagan did thirty years ago. The Russian economy is their achilles heel and a drop in oil prices hits them right where it hurts. Their economy is not in the position right now that it was in during the 80s. I wouldn't call it an achilles heel insofar as its set up to now to weather temporary storms. Hitting them in the oil prices, as it were, would hurt western economies as well, possibly even equally. The fact of the matter is that we broke russia by outspending them on defense, they were trying to keep up. They don't have to do that right now and, even if they did, they would be much better equipped due to them having much freer markets than they had then. I mean, let's face facts here, they pay less taxes than we do in the US. They have even less regulation in a lot of industries than we do here in the US as well (energy and petroleum being expected of course). They have less strict environmental standards on factories there. This means it costs them a lot less to produce equivalent military equipment to ours. They don't have to import oil, like we do, so they don't have to give other countries (mainly opec nations) 500 billion dollars a year. Russia's economy is not on fire as it once was, but it is not going to go away simply because we enact some sort of economic sanctions on them. You have to have security council approval to place blanket sanctions on a nation anyway and russia has a veto on the security council lol. Anything aside from that would have to be individual nations doing it on their own. Guess who russia trades with the most? All the eastern bloc nations in its sphere of influence, especially ukraine lol. What this boils down to is that we are out of our depth in messing with this situation. We have nothing to gain from it, in my opinion, and far too much we could lose if it goes bad. At the end of the day this is probably just going to be another case of putin making obama look amateurish. The best way for obama's pride not to get wounded at this point - pretend russia doesn't exist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MorningGlory Posted March 2, 2014 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 1,022 Topics Per Day: 0.16 Content Count: 39,193 Content Per Day: 6.09 Reputation: 9,977 Days Won: 78 Joined: 10/01/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted March 2, 2014 We have no dog in this fight; Obama can warn against such foolishness but, let's face it, it's between Ukraine and Russia. Ukraine is not a member of NATO so our obligations, and Europe's, are minimal. It doesn't matter how Putin perceives American resolve. No matter who is in the White House, American troops are NOT going to that region....just as they didn't go to Georgia seven years ago. Our best bet is economic pressure, just as Reagan did thirty years ago. The Russian economy is their achilles heel and a drop in oil prices hits them right where it hurts. Their economy is not in the position right now that it was in during the 80s. I wouldn't call it an achilles heel insofar as its set up to now to weather temporary storms. Hitting them in the oil prices, as it were, would hurt western economies as well, possibly even equally. The fact of the matter is that we broke russia by outspending them on defense, they were trying to keep up. They don't have to do that right now and, even if they did, they would be much better equipped due to them having much freer markets than they had then. I mean, let's face facts here, they pay less taxes than we do in the US. They have even less regulation in a lot of industries than we do here in the US as well (energy and petroleum being expected of course). They have less strict environmental standards on factories there. This means it costs them a lot less to produce equivalent military equipment to ours. They don't have to import oil, like we do, so they don't have to give other countries (mainly opec nations) 500 billion dollars a year. Russia's economy is not on fire as it once was, but it is not going to go away simply because we enact some sort of economic sanctions on them. You have to have security council approval to place blanket sanctions on a nation anyway and russia has a veto on the security council lol. Anything aside from that would have to be individual nations doing it on their own. Guess who russia trades with the most? All the eastern bloc nations in its sphere of influence, especially ukraine lol. What this boils down to is that we are out of our depth in messing with this situation. We have nothing to gain from it, in my opinion, and far too much we could lose if it goes bad. At the end of the day this is probably just going to be another case of putin making obama look amateurish. The best way for obama's pride not to get wounded at this point - pretend russia doesn't exist. I agree we've nothing to gain from getting involved in this. Your assessment of the Russian economic outlook? Not so much. They are heavily dependent on oil and natural gas for income and their energy sector is government contolled so of course there are few regulations, environmental or otherwise. We are set to become the top producer of natural gas this year and are importing less oil than ever. A major drop in oil prices would kick the chair from under their energy income. I fail to see how lower oil prices would hurt Europe either. The Russians have always taken the wrong road and they're doing so again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve_S Posted March 2, 2014 Group: Servant Followers: 25 Topic Count: 275 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 5,208 Content Per Day: 0.99 Reputation: 1,893 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/02/2010 Status: Offline Share Posted March 2, 2014 We have no dog in this fight; Obama can warn against such foolishness but, let's face it, it's between Ukraine and Russia. Ukraine is not a member of NATO so our obligations, and Europe's, are minimal. It doesn't matter how Putin perceives American resolve. No matter who is in the White House, American troops are NOT going to that region....just as they didn't go to Georgia seven years ago. Our best bet is economic pressure, just as Reagan did thirty years ago. The Russian economy is their achilles heel and a drop in oil prices hits them right where it hurts. Their economy is not in the position right now that it was in during the 80s. I wouldn't call it an achilles heel insofar as its set up to now to weather temporary storms. Hitting them in the oil prices, as it were, would hurt western economies as well, possibly even equally. The fact of the matter is that we broke russia by outspending them on defense, they were trying to keep up. They don't have to do that right now and, even if they did, they would be much better equipped due to them having much freer markets than they had then. I mean, let's face facts here, they pay less taxes than we do in the US. They have even less regulation in a lot of industries than we do here in the US as well (energy and petroleum being expected of course). They have less strict environmental standards on factories there. This means it costs them a lot less to produce equivalent military equipment to ours. They don't have to import oil, like we do, so they don't have to give other countries (mainly opec nations) 500 billion dollars a year. Russia's economy is not on fire as it once was, but it is not going to go away simply because we enact some sort of economic sanctions on them. You have to have security council approval to place blanket sanctions on a nation anyway and russia has a veto on the security council lol. Anything aside from that would have to be individual nations doing it on their own. Guess who russia trades with the most? All the eastern bloc nations in its sphere of influence, especially ukraine lol. What this boils down to is that we are out of our depth in messing with this situation. We have nothing to gain from it, in my opinion, and far too much we could lose if it goes bad. At the end of the day this is probably just going to be another case of putin making obama look amateurish. The best way for obama's pride not to get wounded at this point - pretend russia doesn't exist. I agree we've nothing to gain from getting involved in this. Your assessment of the Russian economic outlook? Not so much. They are heavily dependent on oil and natural gas for income and their energy sector is government contolled so of course there are few regulations, environmental or otherwise. We are set to become the top producer of natural gas this year and are importing less oil than ever. A major drop in oil prices would kick the chair from under their energy income. I fail to see how lower oil prices would hurt Europe either. The Russians have always taken the wrong road and they're doing so again. Most of the countries they export to only have them as an option to buy from, ukraine for instance. International prices don't affect them as much. As far as their energy sector, it is government controlled, yes, which is why i said it was excepted. But the remainder of their industry there for the most part, textiles, etc., is less regulated than the US. Starting a business there is easier, hiring employees, etc., all that is easier. Taxes? Less and easier. The reason I say that it would hurt the west almost as much, even europe, is because a significant percentage of capital at any given time is tied up in what basically equates to market gambling on energy futures. If the prices slowly come down over time it doesn't affect that very much because people recognize the trends and gamble less and less (this is partially what actually drives prices down at any rate). But, if we artificially created some sort of mechanism or rule that would knock the bottom out from under energy prices, that capital would start to go bad very quickly and there are a lot of firms that invest in this heavily that would be in danger of collapse, in other words, it would create an artificial currency bubble due to how much currency is tied up in petroleum futures at any given time. You are correct in your assumption that this would damage russia. However, there is a far scarier thought that one must consider here. Let's say we do this. We temporarily manage to crash oil prices to where russia loses half of their oil income. Russia is the largest producer of oil in the world right now, it exports half its oil, about 12 percent of the oil traded on the world market right now comes from russia. My fear would be that russia would counter our move by shutting down exports completely. This would remove 5 million barrels per day from the market. That would throw the market into tumult and cause prices to spike across the board, they could stockpile it, and you'd have people in western nations screaming because they're now paying 4.50 to 5 dollars a gallon for gas on average, probably 6 to 7 in some US states. This is how i believe putin operates. If you punch him he is going to punch back harder. I see no necessity or reason for doing this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
other one Posted March 2, 2014 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 29 Topic Count: 599 Topics Per Day: 0.08 Content Count: 56,262 Content Per Day: 7.56 Reputation: 27,989 Days Won: 271 Joined: 12/29/2003 Status: Offline Share Posted March 2, 2014 We have no dog in this fight; Obama can warn against such foolishness but, let's face it, it's between Ukraine and Russia. Ukraine is not a member of NATO so our obligations, and Europe's, are minimal. It doesn't matter how Putin perceives American resolve. No matter who is in the White House, American troops are NOT going to that region....just as they didn't go to Georgia seven years ago. Our best bet is economic pressure, just as Reagan did thirty years ago. The Russian economy is their achilles heel and a drop in oil prices hits them right where it hurts. yes we do have a serious dog in this fight.... we signed some very serious agreements with them guaranteeing their independence if they would relinquish their nuclear weapons to Russia... we made some serious promises that we should not back away from. And it was not the Obama Administration that made those commitments. It was those kinds of commitments that tied all sides together during World Wars one and two. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EnochBethany Posted March 2, 2014 Group: Removed from Forums for Breaking Terms of Service Followers: 1 Topic Count: 8 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 649 Content Per Day: 0.17 Reputation: 99 Days Won: 3 Joined: 02/21/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted March 2, 2014 IMHO, the administration is blowing hot air & doing itself damage. First of all, damage for butting into something in which is none of our business. Why does this administration think it needs to voice its opinion all internal conflicts in all nations? We have enough of our own problems, without lecturing others. Second, talking about sanctions is insulting to Russia. And sanctions are mostly useless anyway. Third, they are asking for embarrassment when they do nothing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rollinTHUNDER Posted March 2, 2014 Group: Royal Member Followers: 6 Topic Count: 84 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 2,986 Content Per Day: 0.37 Reputation: 433 Days Won: 2 Joined: 04/23/2002 Status: Offline Share Posted March 2, 2014 We don't have a dog in this fight. And the days of the USA policing the world are just about over. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve_S Posted March 2, 2014 Group: Servant Followers: 25 Topic Count: 275 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 5,208 Content Per Day: 0.99 Reputation: 1,893 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/02/2010 Status: Offline Share Posted March 2, 2014 We have no dog in this fight; Obama can warn against such foolishness but, let's face it, it's between Ukraine and Russia. Ukraine is not a member of NATO so our obligations, and Europe's, are minimal. It doesn't matter how Putin perceives American resolve. No matter who is in the White House, American troops are NOT going to that region....just as they didn't go to Georgia seven years ago. Our best bet is economic pressure, just as Reagan did thirty years ago. The Russian economy is their achilles heel and a drop in oil prices hits them right where it hurts. yes we do have a serious dog in this fight.... we signed some very serious agreements with them guaranteeing their independence if they would relinquish their nuclear weapons to Russia... we made some serious promises that we should not back away from. And it was not the Obama Administration that made those commitments. It was those kinds of commitments that tied all sides together during World Wars one and two. The United States did not sign an agreement to "guarantee their independence." You are spekaing of the Budapest Memorandum, which was a diplomatic document signed in 1994 where as russia, great britain, and the US agreed that, if ukraine gave up its nuclear weapons, that the signatories would recognize and respect their sovereignty, basically giving them enfranchisement as a legitimately incorporated nation with diplomatic standing (basically, fully recognized). This was not a defense guarantee by any of the signatories. Ukraine is not in NATO, it has no defense guarantee from the united states of any sort, and our recognition of a nation's sovereignty is not tantamount to a duty to interdict during a war against that nation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EnochBethany Posted March 2, 2014 Group: Removed from Forums for Breaking Terms of Service Followers: 1 Topic Count: 8 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 649 Content Per Day: 0.17 Reputation: 99 Days Won: 3 Joined: 02/21/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted March 2, 2014 The United States warned Russia on Wednesday against military intervention in Ukraine and said any incursion could lead to a broad international backlash.View the full article "lead to a broad international backlash" -- you mean like an international sneer at the USA for being impotent & blowing hot air? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts